Accident in Fort Severen

[Pie Lot]

I hated that F*$#ing pusher ice mode. I know of two pilots that had it push it 200 ft on approach. I know it is in the checklist to ensure prop de-ice off, but sometimes shit gets forgotten or missed, and this can be a fatal one. I never used the prop de-ice, period. I know half of you think I am an idiot and will say so, but I found that 1 blade usually failed and you had an uneven vibration etc. all the time. So I just didn't bother putting it on. I found there was so much power in that plane you could out climb pretty well any ice without any assistance. If you were in for a few minutes, the prop collecting ice never degraded the performance to any noticeable level. Go ahead, flame away, but 4000 hours in that plane later, in all kinds of iceing situations, I am still here.

[Caracrane]

fully with you, but after 4000+ on type you won't forget you got the 3 things that trigger the pusher ice mode so why beating up the prop, engine mount and more, because if it has to be engaged, well your obyously in icing so keep the AOA s relax with higher speed and turn it off just before DH. Having done gravel on 1600 ft with this flying marvel, little chances are to overrun even IFR on 2500 ft with higher speed and consecutivly the 8 degree thing does not longer is a problem.

[Caracrane]

I'm confused about how such a thing could happen with this accident, help from engineers are welcome to understand why such a mess happened.

[Cap'n P8]

I also agree with you Pie Lot. I would only use it as far as the FAF and then I would make sure to turn it off. Poor KRB, I've got a few hunny in that one. Glad nobody was hurt though.

[Rudy]

True, the pusher has probably caused more accidents than it has prevented.
I've always included a caws panel review in my mental final approach checklist but that said I missed it about a month ago and landed with it on (lucky we weren't too heavy). It happens to guys with thousands on type and will continue. It really should be something that gets checked as part of our SOP's during the verbal checklist.

As far as how you could wreck TWO engines on a pilatus due to one hard landing, that's got to be one for the record books.

[Stefan Finucan]

I agree Rudy. I guess we don't really know if that was what happened, but it certainly is something that could have happened. I've forgotten the prop heat on too. We'll amend the checklist.

[Flying Low]

If it's in the checklist how do you miss it?????

[tsgas]

The former Bearskin owners of this plane must of had a good chuckle at this latest mishap.

[Doc]

If it's in the checklist how do you miss it?????

Hope that's "tongue in cheek"...same way guys miss gear, flaps, take off from the wrong runway etc. etc. etc.

I don't have any PC12 time. Nil. Nada. Zilch. And I fully intend to keep my PC12 time at Zero! But, I must ask why an aircraft the size of a PC12 needs a stick pusher??

[Flying Low]

Yes Doc.

Tongue firmly planted in cheek! In fact it's the main item on my "Before AvCanada Sign In" checklist and may be the one checklist item I have never ever missed!

[fingersmac]

The former Bearskin owners of this plane must of had a good chuckle at this latest mishap.

Why would they have a chuckle at an accident that thankfully resulted in just a few shaken up souls and a damaged aircraft?

But, I must ask why an aircraft the size of a PC12 needs a stick pusher??

It was designed for the corporate market so the more safety features the better it looks on paper, I suppose.

[Cap'n P8]

If it's in the checklist how do you miss it?????

Hope that's "tongue in cheek"...same way guys miss gear, flaps, take off from the wrong runway etc. etc. etc.

I don't have any PC12 time. Nil. Nada. Zilch. And I fully intend to keep my PC12 time at Zero! But, I must ask why an aircraft the size of a PC12 needs a stick pusher??

If you ever get a chance watch the video Pilatus put out showing their stall testing in the PC12, then you'll see why it has a pusher!

With 1200 ponies pulling along the centreline, there is a tonne of torque around the longitudinal axis. When they did stall testing it had a habit of rolling on it's back when full power was applied for recovery.

[Cap'n P8]

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/su ... 443215_ITM

From the link above:

There are angle-of-attack vanes on each wing, providing information to dual AOA systems that drive a stick shaker and pusher. Stalls are prohibited, as the airplane could not meet the certification requirements regarding maximum roll-off at the stall break with full flaps and full power. It also means that angle of attack is displayed on the flight director, making holding precisely the right speed for a given landing weight easy.

[Caracrane]

and did try it with pusher breaker popped out when I began with distributor demo pilot. Very gentle. buff,wings shake, push it stops,pull, shakes again, stay straight, only lots of rudder when stall because of the -67 power. Will always remember the mighty 12 as the safyest and reliable airplane of it's size. Records speak for it. And have a look on the latest Pro Pilot Magazine survey. And Doc you have zero time on the plane, well she don't miss you either.

[avtech]

I believe pilatus used the same wings as one of their military trainers, hence the stick pusher system.

[. .]

If it's in the checklist how do you miss it?????

Hope that's "tongue in cheek"...same way guys miss gear, flaps, take off from the wrong runway etc. etc. etc.

I don't have any PC12 time. Nil. Nada. Zilch. And I fully intend to keep my PC12 time at Zero! But, I must ask why an aircraft the size of a PC12 needs a stick pusher??

It's purely a certification issue. The plane behaved so poorly in stalls, that it needed the pusher/shaker to get certification. Had the pc-12 had tamer stall characteristics it wouldn't require one.

[Cap'n P8]

Specifically, it does not meet certification standards for stall recovery with full flaps. They discovered during the flight testing program that it would flip on it's back when full power was quickly added in stall recovery with full flaps. The stall itself was docile.

[ninjacrumb]

No such thing as a Gear Actuator CB. Smack the guy that told you that one.

Accidents happen. People screw up. Be glad it wasn't you. When it is know that everyone on AvCanada will tear you a new one with conclusions based on heresay and assumption.

I'm sure some of the high timers that post here have clipped a wingtip, put a plane on its ass or punctured a float. We say Ooops, thank SMS and have a slice of humble beer.

[Cat Driver]

We say Ooops, thank SMS and have a slice of humble beer.

Thank SMS???

You lost me completely with that bit.

[ninjacrumb]

Hey Old Dog here's a new trick.

SMS. Can't be pee pee slapped for unintentional accidents. In a nutshell.

Just kidding with the Old Dog comment, I not exactly a spring chicken myself.

[Cat Driver]

aaahhh, now I get it.

[swordfish]

Nicely put, ninja:

Accidents happen. People screw up. Be glad it wasn't you. When it is know that everyone on AvCanada will tear you a new one with conclusions based on heresay and assumption.

I'm sure some of the high timers that post here have clipped a wingtip, put a plane on its ass or punctured a float. We say Ooops, thank SMS and have a slice of humble beer.

....landed on floats after dark, flew over the gross weight limit of the plane, flew in, then subsequently landed in conditions below the VFR (IFR) minima, ended up off the side (end) of a runway, went flying when you were too tired/irritated/stressed-out/hungry/thirsty and couldn't seem to get anything right today, flew in contravention of some idiotic nebulous CARs rule, gave shit to some poor rampie/dock-hand who did not deserve it...

And last but not least: got away with something stupid, and reflected at the end of the day: "Good god, I should take a lesson from that little foofy and will never do that again".

Maybe that's what doc is referring to when he says "start thinking"...? or was it keep thinking...or was it stop thinking...or was it take time to think...? Sometimes it seems that's only available at the end of the day.