Sunwing- Hiring Pilots from Germany

[Dash-Ate]

This add is above me now.

[wallypilot]

the big picture folks....look at the big picture. tonnes of canadians working for sunwing in europe in the off season, "taking" euro pilots' jobs. it's reciprocal. please. i bet there are way more canucks working there than euros working here, generally speaking.

[Rubberbiscuit]

I can understand why Canadian Pilots are upset to hear foreign accents over the radio. However, wallypilot is right. Sunwing deploys alot more pilots to Europe than it brings on for the winter season. Without these reciprocal agreements in place, Sunwing would not be employing anywhere near the amount of FULLTIME pilots that they currently have. Sunwing has about 170 pilots right now but only operated 3 aircraft in Canada this summer. Get the picture?

[mattedfred]

Now is not the time to be protectionist when it comes to pilot jobs in Canada. Canadian CPs and ATPs are able to convert their licenses to many foreign licenses. You can't have your cake an eat it too and I don't wish to put a stop to us using our credentials overseas. One should not assume that an EU CPL or ATPL is better than a Canadian one, as there are several factors at play (i.e. EU protectionism, lower per capita percentage of GA flying when compared to Canada, etc). My impression is that Indian airlines have been able to hire any pilot that has a TR and 100 hours on type. A single pilot union in Canada is the best way to attempt to finesse issues such as this one in my opinion. Hopefully Canjet can sort out it's union issues and Sunwing will join ALPA as First Air and Wasaya have already done.

[CAL]

I applied...I am current on a 737 as a line pilot.

I interviewed sat in the sim(767)...it was fun, thought I did well...no response.

To be honest I felt the ride was just a 'formality'....it was so rushed that you could never really have identified a 'good' pilot like that, especially if you have no experience in a 767.
I think they already knew at that point of what was going on or had picked their guys.

I did my ride with a guy who had never been in a simulator let alone touched a jet airplane.

Its not his fault, he was a great guy and likely a great pilot, its just what is out there....lots of turbo-prop guys with little 'airline' type experience and no experience on large jets...this is what I saw anyway....and this is not a low blow at turbo prop guys just it may not be what sunwing is looking for....and as I did not get a call it may not make a difference...or I did not do as well as I thought.

I was very disappointed to not get a call but I guess at the end of the day if they can get 'type' rated guys at a better deal and spend less on training and not have to lay them off in the spring then its the choice they have to make....at the end of the day its the bottom line....and why hire guys taking them away from a job then getting rid of them in 6 months.

They did also say that the last hiring round was primarily for Captains...or someone who they can upgrade quickly which I am guessing was not me.

Either way I hope Sunwing continues to do well and sticks around...you can always apply again.

If you do get a crack at it...other than the usual mention of salary...dont mention salary..you know what it is going in...you are not going to get anymore by bringing it up.

Keep Flying Sunwing!

[Rubberbiscuit]

BTW: The 170 pilots I mentioned in my previous post does not include the contract crews.

CAL: I have no idea why you did not get on or when you did your interview, but try again. You seem to have the right attitude.

[Panama Jack]

As a Canadian pilot working for an overseas airline, in a country where I do not hold citizenship or permanent-residency status on my own merit, on a permanent, open-ended contract (there are many of us in this category; we are generally well treated and respected by our "local" peers), I certainly don't have any problems with a foreign pilot coming to work in Canada on a 6-month temporary contract.

Those guys who raise hell on this issue, you disgust me.

[turbo-beaver]

commuter..... if you are now the self appointed forum spelling police just fyi it is not "there own people".....it is "their own people"

panama jack......no one really cares how disgusted you or I may be but the reality of the issue is, to put every company on a level playing field, then you must think that if AC goes out and gets another 50 Embraers, then it is OK to bring in 300 pilots from Brazil to fly them?

[Panama Jack]

To answer your question, yes, of course, if the airplanes come in and the airline is unable to supply sufficient qualified people to crew them, why not? We are, after all, talking about a temporary situation, so I don't see the harm.

This is what has been happening in India, where many expats have gone to while the Indians get enough of their own up-to-speed (if you've visited any Canadian flight schools recently you may have noticed the smell of curry in the air and students eating parathas).

It is also happening in China and a number of other countries. A few Canadians have been flying at Korean Air for about 16 years-- and I don't think it has anything to do with that Koreans think Canadians have superior flying skills.

[rd1331]

the reality of the issue is, to put every company on a level playing field, then you must think that if AC goes out and gets another 50 Embraers, then it is OK to bring in 300 pilots from Brazil to fly them?

That's not the reality though. The only way that would be the same is if those 50 Embraers came from a Brazilian airline and where here for only 6 months of the year on contract and then the other 6 months they flew for the Brazilian airline that actually owned the aircraft.

These are not Canadian aircraft, they may have canadian registrations but they are owned by the airlines in Europe that supply the pilots. Sunwing only owns 4 out of the 15 airplanes that will be here this winter from what I have heard. I think they have 1 aircraft that is not going to be C reg this year the rest are, but they are not Sunwing airplanes, they are EuroCypria, and a couple other european carrier aircraft.

To fly aircraft that aren't C reg all you need is an endorcement to fly them, just a paperwork issue nothing more than that.

They are Not taking Canadian jobs, this actually provides more Canadians with jobs. Currently there are 170 Canadian pilots at Sunwing and as someone already said only 3 aircraft over the summer where in Canada. Do the math. Without deals like this they would only be able to afford to keep maybe 50 pilots. So by having these recipricol deals 120 extra Canadian pilots are able to have jobs. More pilots from Canada go to europe to fly than europeans comming here.

Stop you whining, just because you didn't get on with them. These deals provide more Canadians with jobs.

Let me know if the numbers are wrong but I think they are right from the people i know that work there.

[Floyd]

I think that the point of this whole topic is that pilots get pissed off that Canadian companies complain to the government that there aren't enough skilled workers in Canada and that they need to let more immigrants in to fill the job. In the airline industry, like many other industries, there are plenty of skilled workers but they are just not willing to make crap pay. I don't have a problem with the way Sunwing does things 'cause as you guys said it contract but it's a load of crap that there are not enough skilled pilots in Canada. And the immigrants get an extra advantage in that they are a minority, hardly fair.

[LegoMan]

Sunwing signed a contract to fly for TUI during the summer. I think the deal was they would send Canadian pilots to Germany if they took some German pilots to Canada for the winter season.

[Mig29]

I can't read this entire thread...but will say only this:

IT'S A BIG LOAD OF CRAP THAT THESE CANADIAN CARRIERS CAN'T FIND QUALIFIED PILOTS HERE IN CANADA!!!

Hire me for six months and lay me off, I don't care, I'd do it...but DON'T tell me there are no pilots here in Canada who can fly a B737 or A320!

Maaaaaannnnnnnnnn..... I gotta go get out of here before I lose my medical due to high blood pressure!

[Rubberbiscuit]

I can't read this entire thread...but will say only this:

IT'S A BIG LOAD OF CRAP THAT THESE CANADIAN CARRIERS CAN'T FIND QUALIFIED PILOTS HERE IN CANADA!!!

Hire me for six months and lay me off, I don't care, I'd do it...but DON'T tell me there are no pilots here in Canada who can fly a B737 or A320!

Maaaaaannnnnnnnnn..... I gotta go get out of here before I lose my medical due to high blood pressure!

It is not as simple as it looks. Based on this summers flying out of Canada Sunwing has about 120-130 more pilots than they will need here next summer. By entering into reciprocal wetlease agreements with other carriers in Europe, companies such as Sunwing and Skyservice is able to employ alot more pilots than they otherwise would. There are maximum 40 pilots coming to fly for sunwing this winter along with airplanes from their company. 40 is less than the number of sunwing pilots deployed to europe this summer. The other part of the equation is the fleet of aircraft. Hiring and laying off pilots and flight attendants every year is one thing, having a fleet of airplanes with no flying to do come spring is another. By wetleasing to Europe during their busy travelseason it helps carriers at both sides of the pond.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Interesting that this thread existed four years ago, in 2008, similar to what is being written in other threads in 2012. Reading it, I can see that SunWing had already begun hiring foreign crews at least the year before. It was a temporary thing, some people wrote here. This is been going on for 5 years at least.

For the last 5 years, there have been no qualified pilots in Canada. It's really funny because in those 5 years, Air Transat, where I work, has hired at least 150 to 200 pilots, many of which have already made left seat on a wide-body airliner. But Sunwing needs to hire Germans, and Brits and Czechs......

[Lost Lake]

Correct me if I'm wrong. I flew with pilots who wished to fly in Europe. Not only was the JARS exams and cost a huge stumbling block, but my friends also said that unless you are a national of the country whose airline you wanted to fly for you are pissing in the wind. My only point here is that it is a lot easier for Eropeans to fly here, contract or otherwise than it is for Americans (Canada/Us) to fly in Europe.

[scopiton]

panama jack thanks someone had to say it

[x-wind]

I heard on the news today that the GOVERMENT of Canada is fast tracking the immigration process for skilled works. Also, they're going to give the right to companies to pay them 15% less then the Canadian employees.

This country has become a sell out, which is discusting.

As for this particular temporary contract? - Maybe my comments don't apply but I was looking for a soap box.

[Lost Lake]

x-box. Zellers is selling soap boxes. Made in China/

[Gilles Hudicourt]

panama jack thanks someone had to say it

Panama Jack's comparison is not the same. He is working in the ME where there are just not enough locals to do the work. In the UAE for example (home of Emirates and Etihad) out of a population of over 8 million, only 13% are Emiratis, while the majority of the population are expatriates who are all temporary workers who will never attain citizenship or permanent residency.

SunWing is using German, British and Czech pilots. Some pilots fly to the UK on the reciprocity scheme, none in Germany or the Czech Republic. None of these three countries imports foreign pilots because of so called pilots shortages in their countries, which is what the LMO issued by HRSDC claims when they allow more foreign pilots in Canada than the reciprocity immigration scheme allows. And I suspect the new Pilot EASA licence regulations that come into force this year will further restrict Canadian pilots going to work in Europe in the future.

[hawker driver]

This thread just answered the question I had.

Last week flying through Miami center airspace a Sunwing aircraft checked in. The Miami controller had to ask the pilot to repeat himself 3 times so he could understand what he was saying. My co pilot and myself couldn't understand him either. The accent was not German, Spanish or French it really was uncomprehendable. When I mentioned to my partner that Sunwing was a Canadian company he didn't believe me. He said that he has been to Canada many times and that was definitely not a Canadian accent.

[Gino Under]

To eliminate a home boy (or girl) with the proper licence and qualifications for either of these charter airlines simply on the basis of not having a type rating is what disgusts me.

And Gilles, this bullsh*t has been going on-and-off since the early 80s.

With regard to any level 4 ICAO English requirement, some of the nationalities involved in this 'exchange' are sub-standard level 4 and should not have been acceptable simply on the basis of a type rating. Some have evidently gotten through that barrier. That disgusts me.

This issue is also about preserving the very career of professional pilot in this country. This self centered solution to a perceived lack of qualified pilots not being avilable on the part of Sunwing and Canjet only serves to remove any and all chances a young Canadian pilot hoping to move up that greased ladder that is Canadian aviation by not providing them with the opportunity to obtain type rating training and increasing their KSAs also disgusts me. How will Canadian airlines ensure the supply of suitably qualified Canadian pilots they will need in the years ahead? By hiring foreigners on a seasonal basis until they only hire foreigners on a full time basis and eliminate the need for Canadian pilots entirely?
Great! Not much of a solution in my mind, but this is exactly where this is headed and it disgusts me!!

The pilots at Sunwing and Canjet who go along with this approach to pilot employment in Canada disgust me.

Why more of you aren't disgusted by all of this is a complete mystery.

Any potential candidate should at least have the opportunity to decide whether a six month gig is worth it or not.

When the day arrives that we really are into a pilot shortage, then it may be we'll need to look beyond our borders. Not until.

Gino Under

[patrickairlie]

The issue here is reciprocity. Sunwing brought in 150 or so pilots from Europe and wetleased an airplane for those that probably couldn't get through the FLV process (I won't go there). TUI has only placed 48 Canadian pilots in Ireland and Poland. No one had the opportunity to exercise reciprocity and work in Germany for the summer.
It is all about the numbers.

[lilflyboy262]

@ Gino.

While I agree with some of what you have said, what does this mean for the Canadian pilots who have gone overseas? Should they all have to come home because they are stealing the jobs from those countries?

As Patrick points out, it is an issue of reciprocity. Not an issue of foreign pilots flying here.

[GRK]

Let me say first of all, that the deal seriously sucks for non rated Canadian pilots and I have argued with guys who don't agree for years..Canadian pilots must work for Canadian companies...period, reciprocity notwithstanding...until there are no Candadian pilots available...training is the responsibility of an airline and their AOC is issued partly on that principle, not filling seats with foreign pilots to avoid the resonsibility. 90 percent of the Canadian pilots who fly overseas do so for a company (or companies) in places that have NO POSSIBLE WAY to populate their airlines with properly qualified pilots. Sure, many have a cadet program in place and it works well for the most part, but the numbers they need and the numbers available for them to keep a safe number of pilots employed aren't the same. A few airlines even hire Direct Entry Captains, (SQ EK EY to name a few) it takes years to qualify a cadet to be a Captain. and lots hire First Officers. To equate this with the Canadian problem is apple to oranges...Canada HAS qualified pilots available and those companies (Sunwing and Canjet) are too cheap to train them. I read the excuses about hiring and laying off etc and I call BS...I'd wager most guys would take the job knowing a layoff is possible rather than watch some guy from overseas take his or her job away. Shame on the Canjet and Sunwing and shame on the Harper Government for allowing this. In my own little protest I will not be supporting those two airlines (I use that term with hesitation) by paying for any flight on either one. BTW, my family and I have lived and worked overseas for 10 years now and have never taken a job that a local was entitled to...I sleep well because of that! It's very interesting to think about why a large number Canadian pilots working overseas had to leave in the first place...maybe the Feds one airline policy and "AC lives at all costs" has something to do with it? Oh, and taxes...so why would anyone want to come home to that and the wages most places pay?