[/quote]
Actually hornblower...it's not a stupid or unqualified statement....wherein lies the problem, that you never heard a word that any of us said...[/quote]
Actually it is completely unqualified, it just says: land in the weeds ... period, no qualification, no further explanation, no additional information. Did you even read it?
Holy Crap!
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cloudrunner
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CLguy wrote:Hornblower not sure why you find this so hard to believe. It is not uncommon for the water depth to be 15 plus feet in the summer. That is if it is the depth that has you concerned. Not sure what you are flying but any float plane I ever flew 4 feet or less was adequate. Now in saying that I certainly don't go looking for a weed bed in order to do a glassy water landing but I certainly wouldn't shy away from one neither.
I don't think they are referring to bull rushes that grow 6 feet out of the water but rather surface type ones.
cloudrunner wrote:To get into a small lake on a calm day you have to use some sort of reference. If you don't have the luxury of setting up nose-high and wait till she touches, a weed bed is a perfect way to get a reference as to where the atmosphere ends and the earth begins. I will often set up so as to flare right on top of the bed, and like CL said, weeds (grass), not a forrest of cat tails. In the event of no-weeds, you have to get as tight to the shore as possible and have good peripheral vision.
There's some qualification for ya...well not YOU cause You just don't get it with statements like your last to CL about staying lucky...this is for the other folks who may have not been in the situation before and who do have an open mind.Driving Rain wrote:If I had to do a forced landing onto glassy water, you bet I'd look for and use a weed bed if it was available
Fill the Oil..Check the Fuel
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Cat Driver
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O.k. gang, lets agree to have another look at what I believe hornblower tried to say before everything went to hell in this thread.
Quote:
" Actually it is completely unqualified, it just says: land in the weeds ... period, no qualification, no further explanation, no additional information. Did you even read it? "
If that in fact is what he found in a book about flight training, then I must agree that this is insufficient and misleading advice....
Where did you read it hornblower...what edition ?
Cat
Quote:
" Actually it is completely unqualified, it just says: land in the weeds ... period, no qualification, no further explanation, no additional information. Did you even read it? "
If that in fact is what he found in a book about flight training, then I must agree that this is insufficient and misleading advice....
Where did you read it hornblower...what edition ?
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
To each his own. I've used weed beds for judgement and for touch down when I knew the lake in question. Other than that, if the water was glassy, then something went out the window at low altitude on my inspection pass. I ain't throwing "diddley" out the window if the engine "calves"....I'm busy anyway and I can't throw "sh*t" when my assh*le is puckered. At that point my intentions are to get the a/c on the water in one piece so I can at least swim away. They make a/c everyday, but all my parts are "back-ordered".
As for landing in weed beds, well what the heck does “I certainly don't go looking for a weed bed in order to do a glassy water landing but I certainly wouldn't shy away from one neither.” mean? Either you would or you wouldn’t pick one, which is it? As for me I would recommend that you do shy away from them, but since you don’t think much of my opinions, fill your boots. Who knows, you might even stay lucky.
Well Hornblower I have been doing glassy water landings for 27 years and it means that I will get the job done by landing in the lake regardless of whether it has a weed bed for me or not. If it has one and it is in the area I am landing in, I will use it to my advantage, if not I will land using other reference points. Either way I am landing and you can bet it will be with all the cushions on board, engines turning or not. Not sure why that was so hard for you to understand.
I see your point about what the book states and I agree that it should be worded better but you made it sound llike anyone considering using a weed bed to assist them in a glassy water landing must be from another planet and I obviously disagree with that. If I misunderstood your comments then I apologize.
Well Hornblower I have been doing glassy water landings for 27 years and it means that I will get the job done by landing in the lake regardless of whether it has a weed bed for me or not. If it has one and it is in the area I am landing in, I will use it to my advantage, if not I will land using other reference points. Either way I am landing and you can bet it will be with all the cushions on board, engines turning or not. Not sure why that was so hard for you to understand.
I see your point about what the book states and I agree that it should be worded better but you made it sound llike anyone considering using a weed bed to assist them in a glassy water landing must be from another planet and I obviously disagree with that. If I misunderstood your comments then I apologize.
You Can Love An Airplane All You Want, But Remember, It Will Never Love You Back!
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Hornblower
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Well you have me beat by 5 years, ... if that’s all float flying. You are clearly far more experienced than I. That being said I’m starting to think we’re not that far apart in our philosophy regarding glassy water landings. If you read back, I never said that weeds were verboten, however the ridiculous statement made in the flight training manual that indicated, without any qualifying statements, landing in weedbeds under glassy water conditions is the method of choice, ...well,... is just stupid.CLguy wrote: Well Hornblower I have been doing glassy water landings for 27 years and it means that I will get the job done by landing in the lake regardless of whether it has a weed bed for me or not. If it has one and it is in the area I am landing in, I will use it to my advantage, if not I will land using other reference points. Either way I am landing and you can bet it will be with all the cushions on board, engines turning or not. Not sure why that was so hard for you to understand.
I see your point about what the book states and I agree that it should be worded better but you made it sound llike anyone considering using a weed bed to assist them in a glassy water landing must be from another planet and I obviously disagree with that. If I misunderstood your comments then I apologize.
You see, LH said: “I've used weed beds for judgement and for touch down when I knew the lake in question”. I think anyone would agree that that’s pretty critical information when landing in shallow water. Kinda my point ...eh?
I believe that you are beginning to understand the point I trying to make before I was slagged. Would you tell a young lad to go find a weedbed to land in any time he was subject to glassy water landing conditions? I think not. You would tell him to use what ever reference he had to gauge his height above the surface, a clear shoreline near the desired point of landing being preferable, ... a weedbed if in a situation where the shoreline was neither convenient or available given: famililiarity of the landing area, the shape of the lake, wind direction, water deep enough, no rocks, etc. etc. etc. along with whatever other techniques you might have socked away. You might even take him out and give him some practice. You wouldn’t just say: :In glassy water, land in weedbeds” would you? If so well, ... then we’re back to name calling I guess.
Catman: it’s in the latest edition of “From the Ground Up”. There is a bunch of other crap in there also. Maybe I could start another thread in here regarding some of that, ... I’m a bear for punishment!
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Cat Driver
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Yeh, for sure hornblower the more I read some of the goofy stuff that is being ground out today in the flight training manuals the more convinced I am becomming that whoever writes this crap was put there by mother nature as a means of culling the population.....
Did you note that I grasped what you were driving at right from the start?
That is because I also have read a lot of the crap that is now taught, however you must take a stroll down to your local TC flight training headquarters some day and have a good talk with some of these guys, then all will be clear...
Cat
Did you note that I grasped what you were driving at right from the start?
That is because I also have read a lot of the crap that is now taught, however you must take a stroll down to your local TC flight training headquarters some day and have a good talk with some of these guys, then all will be clear...
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Hornblower
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Yes I did notice that you grasped the concept right from the get go. Although, if the other guys were all on board from the start, it wouldn’t have been near as much fun now would it? I managed to generate more action on this forum than any other thread since external loads.
And actually, the content of that book is not Transport’s. The name of the latest author/editor is Isabel Peppler. I wonder if she’s any relation to Bill Peppler, late of the COPA presidency (another completely dysfunctional organization, … but that is for another thread).
As for teaching the wrong stuff, I doubt that the causel factors in a TSB accident report will ever point a finger at this book. That being said, the book might as well say nothing rather than provide incorrect or incomplete information. (IMO).
And actually, the content of that book is not Transport’s. The name of the latest author/editor is Isabel Peppler. I wonder if she’s any relation to Bill Peppler, late of the COPA presidency (another completely dysfunctional organization, … but that is for another thread).
As for teaching the wrong stuff, I doubt that the causel factors in a TSB accident report will ever point a finger at this book. That being said, the book might as well say nothing rather than provide incorrect or incomplete information. (IMO).
There is a whole lot of BS written in books that are thought to be the bibles of aviation... FTGU is just one of them.. As was pointed out above, what good is throwing out the cushions from your airplane, if you can, when you will be going away from them??? If you are high enough to throw them out and then do a 180 to land next to them, it must be one big lake if you can't find the shoreline, weedbed or whatever.. In my experience, a body of water that big usually has some wave action that you can use for a reference.. Other books also come up with some interesting ideas that I wouldn't necessarily recommend, one just has to read books on this subject or mountain flying to find some really scary ideas that some will take for gospel...
Fly safe and listen to your elders (and yes Cat is pretty old!!!
) they got to be old for a reason...
Fly safe and listen to your elders (and yes Cat is pretty old!!!
) they got to be old for a reason...-
Driving Rain
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Driving rain,
Twenty-Eighth "Millennium" Edition
Reprinted and Revised 2004
others may be older..
twotter, i agree
anyway, the entire quote was "Try to land alongside a weed bed if one exists within reasonable distance of the landing area. If necessary, land in the weeds. Wild rice is not heavy enough to turn a seaplane over.
Twenty-Eighth "Millennium" Edition
Reprinted and Revised 2004
others may be older..
twotter, i agree
anyway, the entire quote was "Try to land alongside a weed bed if one exists within reasonable distance of the landing area. If necessary, land in the weeds. Wild rice is not heavy enough to turn a seaplane over.
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Driving Rain
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Intentional Left Bank
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Siddley Hawker
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water go boom
c185 LMAO ! 
)
)I dream of a pilot in shining aluminum *sigh*
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shimmydampner
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This weed thread is making me hungry and getting pointless. How about we discuss helpful things we do to make glassy water landings easier. Whether you have 27 years experience or 0 its always good to discuss glassy water landings because it can get the best of us.
- For me, since you get glassy conditions usually early in the morning
or at dusk, try and land without the sun blarring in your eyes.
- Take your time, no need to rush yourself into a glassy landing.
- Pick a nice long landing run up against a shoreline for reference.
- If not, look for ripples, ducks that will make ripples when you get
close to them, boats, lilypads, etc. for good reference points.
- Unless its a short lake, don't come flying in at a steep approach, take
your time and use most of the lake as you can for a nice shallow
approach.
- Once your getting close to the water, nice gentle approach with lots
of power in the landing attitude wait for the water. If it doesn't look
good, go around and try again, because glassy water can grab ya by
the nuts.
Thats about all i think of right now, if anyone has anything to add go right ahead.
- For me, since you get glassy conditions usually early in the morning
or at dusk, try and land without the sun blarring in your eyes.
- Take your time, no need to rush yourself into a glassy landing.
- Pick a nice long landing run up against a shoreline for reference.
- If not, look for ripples, ducks that will make ripples when you get
close to them, boats, lilypads, etc. for good reference points.
- Unless its a short lake, don't come flying in at a steep approach, take
your time and use most of the lake as you can for a nice shallow
approach.
- Once your getting close to the water, nice gentle approach with lots
of power in the landing attitude wait for the water. If it doesn't look
good, go around and try again, because glassy water can grab ya by
the nuts.
Thats about all i think of right now, if anyone has anything to add go right ahead.
Guage ........let's go flyin'.......your my kinda pilot. Probably drink your beer with the same attitude, eh? I got no worries with you up front and I'll be stretched-out in the back getting "40 winks" after we take off. You can do the same on the return trip....deal?
If I know the lake, I got no problem usin' the weeds either. Why taxi around all over the lake, burning gas and looking like you're in some Sunday afternoon "sail-a-thon".
If I know the lake, I got no problem usin' the weeds either. Why taxi around all over the lake, burning gas and looking like you're in some Sunday afternoon "sail-a-thon".
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shimmydampner
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cloudrunner
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