Today's Province Newspaper and Transport Canada

[. ._]

Probably a little bit of both, IMHO, .. After reading some of your stuff here, I think also that when the bullet came for you to be dodged, you and your crew were pretty good with the emergency procedures too.

-istp

[mag check]

For some reason I must have been a misfit in aviation because I still do not believe this to be true.

I do wish to make it clear those of us that are pilots have to remember that it is not a safe job and it is up to us to make it better when and where we can

I wonder why I did not find the above to be true, was it because I tried not to expose myself to situations I could not control and would not airplanes that were not maintained to a safe standard or was I just super lucky and dodged the bullet?

Well Cat, I suspect it is somewhere in between.

Obviously the more time you spend doing any particular thing, the odds do tend to equal out.
This is why auto insurance costs more if you drive more miles per year, such as a travelling salesman. The odds say that they are more at risk of an accident, because they are exposed to the dangers more.
In many ways, flying could be looked a similarly, however, I think that skill, and personal restrictions probably put the odds more in the favor of the carefull pilot, than the carefull driver. In a car you are exposed to many more people, and that is the really unpredictable part.

While you have had a long, safe career, there are many very low time, new pilots that crashed since you started, so that evens out the long safe careers of many.

It's all about the numbers, if the stats estimate a certain number of deaths per 100,000 hours, then that's what it is.

Chance plays a big part in it, a blown tire, or prop blade, or even perhaps a bird strike will quickly change the odds for the worse, and are uncontrollable cicumstances.

[Cat Driver]

I am a firm believer that we can control our destiny by learning how to evaluate the risk factor and knowing our own level of dealing with risk.

I also feel that by looking at statistics we subconsciously open the door to accepting a degree of resignation that lets those insidious thoughts of fate and luck have a part in our decision making.

One of the most insidious pressures on pilots is the fear of saying no when you reach your risk accepting limit, and that has killed a lot of people.

I was in the international aircraft ferry business of old airplanes for years and sometimes the pressure from clients was almost unbearable when I would be holding for weather in some God forsaken country. There were a few times when they would be pressuring me to go because they were checking the weather and told me that it was flyable.

Every time I gave them the same answer, no problem if you think you can do it better I'll just hop on the next airline flight out of here and you come and finish the trip.

No one ever took me up on my offer and the funny thing was when they finally got their airplane delivered without a scratch on it they never ever mentioned the delays.

Money is also another big factor in feeling under pressure.

I always had at least twenty thousand dollars of their money up front in my money belt to help relieve that pressure.

[MUSKEG]

marktheone. Your comments apparently have been taken out of context. Non the less the fact that you believe one has to work at hot starting a pratt leads one to think it won't happen to me. That is human nature. By the way I do have pratt time, does 7000hrs make the grade. I like everyone else fought that insidious little thing called complacency.

[Driving Rain]

It's all about the numbers, if the stats estimate a certain number of deaths per 100,000 hours, then that's what it is.

Is it really? How about the ops spec. Certain types of flying expose one to greater hazards. Crop spraying, fire fighting, (especially in the rocks) and seaplane ops to name three.

I know Cat will chime in here as he has many hours doing all three.

[mag check]

It's all about the numbers, if the stats estimate a certain number of deaths per 100,000 hours, then that's what it is.

Is it really? How about the ops spec. Certain types of flying expose one to greater hazards. Crop spraying, fire fighting, (especially in the rocks) and seaplane ops to name three.

I know Cat will chime in here as he has many hours doing all three.

As I said, I don't have the numbers to compare, but it doesn't matter. I'm not making a forcast of what is to come, I'm using the stats that are availible to me.

The question asked was "it is not safe compared to what?" so I gave the answer as best described by the past stats, there are only two jobs more dangerous than being a pilot, commercial fishing, and logging.

So, if you are a pilot, who likes to go fishing, and cuts firewood on the weekends, you are pretty much screwed

[Driving Rain]

Fair enough buddy ... stay safe.

[Ranjency Dixonator]

I m surprised the news hasnt brought up anything up about that website that was put out about SonicBlue... I believe it (the website) was shut down the day of the crash.. When you try and promote safety you get labeled as a troublemaker who is trying to stir the pot....

www.sonicblueair.ca was the hijacked site, www.sonicblueair.com was the actual Sonic site...

I m not sure who the POI was for SONIC but all of my experiences with transport inspectors are solid. They are there to help, the only time there is problems is when you are operating illegally...

ranjency

[Chuck Ellsworth]

They are there to help, the only time there is problems is when you are operating illegally...

You must be new to aviation.

[Ranjency Dixonator]

They are there to help, the only time there is problems is when you are operating illegally...

You must be new to aviation.

Hopefully one daywe can meet up at the Beaver and you can tell me how you were stuck in the bush and made a radio out of tin foil and beef jerky...

[2R]

So if a part fails due to the absence of following correct produres (as mandated by TC), the company is not liable because they were not aware of the pending failure? Following this logic, one could not be responsible for hitting a mountain if they never read a map that said the mountain was there?

I'm not saying the pilot overtemped the engine knowingly...it could have been maintenance or anyone else. All I know is the recording data found an earlier hotstart that stressed the blade enough to cause a failure at a later date. Why didn't the TSB include this detail in their data?

Two of the pilots who flew the plane told me that the engine was overtorqued and overtemped on a bag run into the interior more than once.Perhaps that is why the engine monitor was never downloaded.You can ask one pilot about it,the other is dead.
I do hope nobody is blaming P&W for that bullshit logkeeping.As that engine was not operated as per the manual.

PM me if you want the survivors name.

[Ranjency Dixonator]

So if a part fails due to the absence of following correct produres (as mandated by TC), the company is not liable because they were not aware of the pending failure? Following this logic, one could not be responsible for hitting a mountain if they never read a map that said the mountain was there?

I'm not saying the pilot overtemped the engine knowingly...it could have been maintenance or anyone else. All I know is the recording data found an earlier hotstart that stressed the blade enough to cause a failure at a later date. Why didn't the TSB include this detail in their data?

Two of the pilots who flew the plane told me that the engine was overtorqued and overtemped on a bag run into the interior more than once.Perhaps that is why the engine monitor was never downloaded.You can ask one pilot about it,the other is dead.
I do hope nobody is blaming P&W for that bullshit logkeeping.As that engine was not operated as per the manual.

PM me if you want the survivors name.

above comment is gutless...If you are going to say things like that you should be man enough to use your own name...

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Hopefully one daywe can meet up at the Beaver and you can tell me how you were stuck in the bush and made a radio out of tin foil and beef jerky...

Actually I wouldn't be able to relate anything near that strange, but I could discuss how things really do work when one is the owner of an air service in the Pacific Region.

I could start by explaining to you how wrong you are about this statement.

I m not sure who the POI was for SONIC but all of my experiences with transport inspectors are solid. They are there to help, the only time there is problems is when you are operating illegally...

Having owned several operating certificates and operated many aircraft in this region I would like to point out your opinion is dead wrong, granted you are speaking only from your own experience with TC so you may believe what you said, however you couldn't be more wrong.

During all the years I operated my own business there was never any question of my ever operating illegally.

That did not mean sweet @#$! all to TC.

[2R]

So if a part fails due to the absence of following correct produres (as mandated by TC), the company is not liable because they were not aware of the pending failure? Following this logic, one could not be responsible for hitting a mountain if they never read a map that said the mountain was there?

I'm not saying the pilot overtemped the engine knowingly...it could have been maintenance or anyone else. All I know is the recording data found an earlier hotstart that stressed the blade enough to cause a failure at a later date. Why didn't the TSB include this detail in their data?

Two of the pilots who flew the plane told me that the engine was overtorqued and overtemped on a bag run into the interior more than once.Perhaps that is why the engine monitor was never downloaded.You can ask one pilot about it,the other is dead.
I do hope nobody is blaming P&W for that bullshit logkeeping.As that engine was not operated as per the manual.

PM me if you want the survivors name.

above comment is gutless...If you are going to say things like that you should be man enough to use your own name...

SAYS HE hiding behind an anon..........I assume you are attempting to goad a name out of me but as i do not know you i will not tell you who told me or when they told me or where they told me about how that engine was being operated.
But none of them have ever worked for P&W

[x-wind]

To play devils advocate and not to imply my personal beliefs..

., haven't you had a few engine fires? I recall you telling of a story of a both engines quitting in a Navajo in night IMC. I know that your still with us so you managed it well obviously, but those sort of things lead to a conclusion that flying can inherently be dangerous.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

., haven't you had a few engine fires? I recall you telling of a story of a both engines quitting in a Navajo in night IMC. I know that your still with us so you managed it well obviously, but those sort of things lead to a conclusion that flying can ., haven't you had a few engine fires? I recall you telling of a story of a both engines quitting in a Navajo in night IMC. I know that your still with us so you managed it well obviously, but those sort of things lead to a conclusion that flying can inherently be dangerous. be dangerous.

I have had one actual engine fire just after turning down wind...shut it down and used fire extinguisher and landed on the other engine.

The other time was about 275 miles N.W. of Resolute in a DC3 but it was not a true fire, only smoke from an oil leak hitting the the hot exhaust laying a fearsome smoke trail behind the airplane...didn't even know it had a problem until a passenger came up front and told me the right engine was on fire...anyhow shut it down and flew to Res on the other one..the problem was a cylinder had broke and there was no indication of a problem until the passenger came upfront to tell me about the smoke.

The double engine failure was on a Navajo at eleven thousand feet at night and I had lots of height to glide to the Airport at Brandon.....through a big hole in the overcast.

Remember I have been driving aircraft for a very long time and of course I would have had some rather tense moments.....and sure there were times when I wished I were somewhere else except in the airplane...but in spite of what some call inherent danger I am still here and never bent one.

I guess what I am trying to say is we can mitigate dangerous situations to a large degree by dealing with them in a clear and logical way......

If flying were all that dangerous aviation would have ceased long ago.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Maybe I should quit flying all together before the percentages catch up with me?

[Ranjency Dixonator]

Blame it on TC all you want BUT.........................

Pilots are their own worst enemies...set after set continue to put up with the same shi*ty wages, flying older, hard used aircraft into bad weather. Hasnt anyone clued in that management wages in 703 are almost three times higher than pilot wages while never having any risk...weird??? I think so. There are a few 703 companies that try and do it right, but they are few and far between...

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Pilots are their own worst enemies..

Now you are talking sense.

If pilots would quit working for peanuts and tell the operators to go @#$! them selves when the employer wants them to fly junk into crap weather overloaded the industry wouldn't need TC.

[Ranjency Dixonator]

Pilots are their own worst enemies..

Now you are talking sense.

If pilots would quit working for peanuts and tell the operators to go @#$! them selves when the employer wants them to fly junk into crap weather overloaded the industry wouldn't need TC.

I hope that day comes soon. Then maybe operators will charge what their services are worth to the customer instead of having the ability due to low wages etc.. to offer these ridiculously low prices to multi million dollar companies such as purolator, dynamex, globe and mail....etc...


By far the funniest thing in this whole newspaper article/debate. EVERY Saturday night in the winter, when BC ferry schedules change to earlier sailings. How do the papers get from the press in vancouver over to the Island??

Umm....SonicBlue..... kind of ironic

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I hope that day comes soon. Then maybe operators will charge what their services are worth to the customer instead of having the ability due to low wages etc.. to offer these ridiculously low prices to multi million dollar companies such as purolator, dynamex, globe and mail....etc...

The courier runs have been the sewer of charter flying for decades, my first exposure to that kind of flying was in 1976 when I made the mistake of flying one winter for a company that had a Purolator contract.

The big courier companies take the lowest bidder and that is why that part of the industry is the sewer of charter flying....I see nothing has changed.

By the way one crack at that kind of flying was enough for me...I had my double engine failure flying in that business.

[mag check]

If you don't mind me asking ., what was the cause of that double engine failure?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The Navajo I was flying was down for maintenance for a few weeks ( An engine change as I recall due to time expired. ) so the guy I was flying for leased a Navajo from someone in Edmonton.

It had not been flown for a long time and the fuel system was full of moisture.

It was ice crystals in the fuel lines...first the right engine died and just I had asked center for a clearance into Brandon the left one quit.

Maybe the reason I am here is because I'm lucky because a couple of minutes after the second engine quit a big fuckin hole in the clouds showed up right over the Brandon airport.

[MUSKEG]

I think businesses will pay what it's worth if the flight is a need, if however it's a convenience they hold that over the owners head and thus the first place they cut costs is with pilot renumeration. I find it sad that the face of ones company, the pilots, who most times are the first,last and only face your customers sees is regarded by company as the lowest on the totem pole. I wonder if life were fair and everyone got paid according to 1. education 2, training required, 3, stress and expectations 4, years of service if in fact our salaries are out of line or is others that are out of line. Ie riggers, doctors,nurses, brewery workers , auto industry.

[Prairie Chicken]

If pilots would quit working for peanuts and tell the operators to go @#$! them selves when the employer wants them to fly junk into crap weather overloaded the industry wouldn't need TC.

I could point out that is why some of us went to TC ...