job hunt.....

[kevinsky18]

+1

I too have been around since the mid 90s in aviation. I now have a good job outside aviation and boy was I tempted when we were booming to give up my good job to get back into aviation.

Alot of young low timers looked at me like I was nuts when I told them how much time I had and that I wasn't interested in getting a full-time flying job. They kept telling me how it was . . how we were going to be booming for years and years . . . pilot shortages with airline retirments ect. No matter how hard I tried to tell these guys that these are old wives tales and that this boom was going to vanish as fast as it appeared and that I didn't want to ride that rollercoaster they wouldn't listen.

We as pilots want to believe the hype (usually perpetuated by instructors who are desperate to build time. I can say that as I've done my fair share of instruction.)

No one wants to believe that after 40-60K of education and ten years of experieince you'll still be making less than a first year plumber and have zero job security.

I as well don't say this with bitterness. It's just a fact, one that many young pilots haven't experieinced yet and one that needs to be understood so that good choices can be made by those who are thinking about starting and by those who are thinking about toughing it out.

I don't see an up turn comming for a long long time. I'm guessing a minimum 3 years and then it's going to take 1500+ hours to be considered for a 206 or 207 job.

[Westward_Bound]

Just wondering, do we have any figures for plumbers wages?

[username:]

Why is everyone so negative? It's still early in the year! Hold your head up high and keep trying Somthing will come along sooner or later.

[ragbagflyer]

My solution is a cap on the number of CPL's dished out each year. The flight schools would scream bloody murder but we'd all end up so much better off (including the instructors once they found jobs paying them what they are worth). In my fantasy world I'd go so far as to put a freeze on licensing till we got on track. Good getting that in place. Anybody know a bored MP looking for a crusade?

[SkyWolfe]

Well if it makes you feel better the schools at CZBB are suffering lack of students! Woohoo!

[username:]

My solution is a cap on the number of CPL's dished out each year. The flight schools would scream bloody murder but we'd all end up so much better off (including the instructors once they found jobs paying them what they are worth). In my fantasy world I'd go so far as to put a freeze on licensing till we got on track. Good getting that in place. Anybody know a bored MP looking for a crusade?

Sorry, but could you maybe elaborate on what that would be a solution to? I don't fully understand what that would solve.

[mattedfred]

Just wondering, do we have any figures for plumbers wages?

my journeyman plumber's rate is $65/hr and he paid his last 1st yr apprentice 40% of his rate

[ragbagflyer]

Sorry, but could you maybe elaborate on what that would be a solution to? I don't fully understand what that would solve.

It would solve the problem of oversupply. There's just way too many cpl's flooding the market. There's no barriers to getting the license other than coming up with 50 to 60G. If there was a limit to the number of licensees issued there wouldn't be such oversupply resulting in fewer people working for less than minimum wage, fewer pilots getting treated like shit. The current motivation for most new pilots entering the field is passion for flying, which doesn't mix well earning a living.

[Cat Driver]

In Europe you will pay around 120,000 euros ( 200,000 Canadian dollars. ) to get your ATPL not to mention having to write much more difficult exams....

..then you start looking for a job.

[ragbagflyer]

That sounds horrible. I don't think raising the price is the answer but entrance exams might be an idea; seems to work for doctors and lawyers. I certainly am not going to pretend to have all the answers, but our current system isn't effective in producing self respecting professionals.

[username:]

Sorry, but could you maybe elaborate on what that would be a solution to? I don't fully understand what that would solve.

It would solve the problem of oversupply. There's just way too many cpl's flooding the market. There's no barriers to getting the license other than coming up with 50 to 60G. If there was a limit to the number of licensees issued there wouldn't be such oversupply resulting in fewer people working for less than minimum wage, fewer pilots getting treated like shit. The current motivation for most new pilots entering the field is passion for flying, which doesn't mix well earning a living.

Oh, ok. I see what you are saying but then what happens to all of the laid off instructors looking for work? There are alot of them out there. I think it's a lose-lose situation. Instructing is a big part of our industry. If you take away the students, we lose more jobs, no?

[C-GGGQ]

no those instructors just don't have to have rediculous student loads like 10-14 (yeah i've had that many) and more manageable ones like 4-8 (preferably few enough to be able to fly them once a day if you can't fit them all in in one day its too many for the students sake) my perfect number is 5-6 easily fits them all into one day

[username:]

no those instructors just don't have to have rediculous student loads like 10-14 (yeah i've had that many) and more manageable ones like 4-8 (preferably few enough to be able to fly them once a day if you can't fit them all in in one day its too many for the students sake) my perfect number is 5-6 easily fits them all into one day

No, business doesn't work that way. It costs money to employ instructors. If there was a reduction in students, the chances are, there would be lay offs. The instructors not laid off would continue to have as many students as they have had in the past.

[C-GGGQ]

actually since schools are still hiring instructors like there is no tomorrow in order to get the instructor to student ratio down. they would drop. Every class 1 i've talked to has said the same thing ideal instructor to student ratio is roughly 1:8 any more and the instructor can't give enough attention to each student and their training suffers go a few less and instructors don't have enough students to fill their schedules and therefore their salary suffers.

It costs money to employ instructors

No it doesn't since instructors only get paid for time instructing and are not salaried.

[username:]

actually since schools are still hiring instructors like there is no tomorrow in order to get the instructor to student ratio down.

Hmm, don't see to many job adds out there for instructors...

[C-GGGQ]

Toronto airways will pay for your rating (and take it out of your paycheck for the next year but thats besides the point). MFC is ALWAYS looking they just don't advertise anymore. I also see ads on other sites aviation.ca for example for instructors. You just have to actually look for the job not everyjob has an ad. It counts just as much for instructor positions as it does for the bush.

[termerair]

In Europe you will pay around 120,000 euros ( 200,000 Canadian dollars. ) to get your ATPL not to mention having to write much more difficult exams....

..then you start looking for a job.

Don't exaggerate too much Cat...! I have a few friends who have been through the whole process there and even with a rating on the 737 or 320 and a block of hours, they haven't spent that much money... High cost training and the 14 exams you have to write for the ATPL don't solve the problem of too many inexperienced pilots...

Just my 2 cents! Cheers!

T.

[Tango Romeo]

Hey everyone,

l"m not a pilot but after reading this particular post l've come to the realization that this industry is in tough times.

l really think its time that pilots ( commercial guys ) start helping aspiring pilots and offering your input.

Tango-

[Just another canuck]

Although we are in an obvious downturn, I am going to try and shed a little light on this situation. For the past few months especially, there's been a lot of talk of "hope you have a back-up plan" and "you only have 1500 hours?? oh, maybe you'll get a 206 job"... blah, blah, blah.

It seems every time our industry gets in a little trouble, there are a large group of pilots who turn to this ridiculous negative attitude. Why are some so easy to give up and swing a hammer or drive a truck? Okay, it's a fact that there will be some who are not so fortunate, but I also believe these are the same people who can not or will not move and/or are not trying hard enough. If you have a family and can not move, that doesn't mean there are no jobs. Just because you can not get a job flying out of YYZ, that does not mean there are no jobs.

I have been unemployed since November, until very recently when my job search ended. But between November and now, I have had four job interviews and three more prospects that, in time, would have very likely led to employment. I was offered three of four jobs from the interviews. The first two weren't for me. The last interview was the right job for me and I took it.

So, for all you with the negative attitudes, this site is for information as well as help. There are young guys/gals out there that take what people have to say on this site very seriously... myself included. Let's try to help them by telling it like it is, but also by focusing on the positives that are still present.

If you have a passion for flying, don't quit... there are still jobs out there for those that want them. Stay positive and keep on keeping on.

Good luck to all.

Cheers,

JAC

[ragbagflyer]

There would be a lot less instructors for sure, which is a good thing. Right now they're helping prop up a broken system. They'd move into other jobs anyways because they wouldn't be competing with as many of their own students. Who knows, maybe we could even shift away from our current system of using low time pilots to teach other low time pilots.

[SurfViper]

I have been following the goings-on of this site since ~circa 2003.

Just another canuck's refreshingly positive post above, combined with the fact that I'm finally at a point where I can make a move from my current profession into something I've wanted since childhood motivated me to finally create an account and do something other than lurk and absorb knowledge.

Thanks to years of reading the community's thoughts on here, I'm not naive about what I'm about to embark upon. And like many others, my timing for starting out isn't exactly great, but I wanted to let "Just another canuck" know that their words made a positive impact on at least one person!

[anonymity]

If you're reading this and thinking about becoming a pilot, some old Hawker pilots tried to warn me about this industry, but they weren't specific enough.
Specifics;
1) Some work the ramp for 2 yrs plus at barely above min. wage
2) Your 1st job will barely pay the bills
3) During downturns you may have 3500 hrs,ton of multi-pic on turbine and not be able to find a job because somebody with half your time, had money and bought a PPC then pimped themselves out because they had a trust fund.
4)1 step forward 2 steps back your whole career
5)AIDS(aviation induced divorce syndrome)
6)If you work for a non-union company and you happen to be the 2nd highest paid employee, when the industry turns you and the 1st highest paid(Ops manager and Chief Pilot)will be the first to go. And if you think well a company can't operate without those positions, you're correct. But someone that you work with will do your job for half the money to remain employed(1st hand knowledge)
7)During recessions there will be cutbacks most jobs pay less now then the same jobs 10 years ago
Many times over the years you will question what the hell you were thinking.
9)No sympathy from the general public because they think we make way more money, than we do.
10)When you can't find anything you will probably end up flying airplanes that belong in a junkyard for an operator who thinks of you as a tool, not a person.
11)See posts about "Mark Tayfel"
12)I love my job now, unfortunately, I have to commute to work because I can't afford to live in any of the bases offered. This means I spend more nights away from home then at home, See point 5
13)I wonder if I will still have a job in 6 months, so after 15 years I still worry about whether I'll be driving a long haul truck to pay the bills during yet another down turn.
14) Better have a backup plan because you will need it!!!!

I dont want to come across as completely bitter, there will be moments that you will have, that make you think you wouldn't trade this for anything else. A small percentage of the population get to do what we do.

Thought I would add more to help the perspective new pilot.
15)You will encounter an employer who will want you to push the envelope, when you say no, he will tell you, "I can find 10 pilots tomorrow who will do it"
16) When you say no I won't do that, you will be "laid off due to shortage of work" in very short order.
3 times in my career.
17) You will find out shortly after that, they hired someone else the next day of the supposed shortage.
18)You could file a complaint and risk being blackballed from the industry.
19)You call T.C to make a complaint about any non-compliance issues and they may tell you, they don't take complaints from terminated employees too seriously because of the revenge aspect.

[Westward_Bound]

Could you please give some examples of "pushing the envelope"?? I just want to see what I might be expected to do and just how deadly it might be.

[Widow]

A few examples of pushing the envelope that are encountered far too often:

* being asked to fly when the weather is below minimums
* being asked to fly over gross permissible weight
* being asked to fly when there are unacceptable "snags"
* being asked to fly more or longer hours when your body says you are no longer able to perform

READ THIS THREAD: Pilots Stay Safe, Know Your Rights

[Cat Driver]

15)You will encounter an employer who will want you to push the envelope, when you say no, he will tell you, "I can find 10 pilots tomorrow who will do it"

And there will be twenty lined up for your job before you have got back home.

16) When you say no I won't do that, you will be "laid off due to shortage of work" in very short order.

That is almost guaranteed.

3 times in my career.

I can't remember how many times I had that happen to me.

17) You will find out shortly after that, they hired someone else the next day of the supposed shortage.

That is guaranteed.

18)You could file a complaint and risk being blackballed from the industry.

The risk is very , very high the problem is you will not be able to prove it.

19)You call T.C to make a complaint about any non-compliance issues and they may tell you, they don't take complaints from terminated employees too seriously because of the revenge aspect.

Transport Canada could care less about you or your complaint they are only concerned with their own pay checque and retirement plans.

The few who would like to be able to help you are afraid of being blackballed in their own system.

Great industry isn't it?