Porter

[Changes in Latitudes]

What's not to like?

They're big, new, different, hiring, or he didn't get hired. Either way, its clear, he's threatened.

[dashx]

Why such a hate on for Porter

I don´t hate Porter. Of course I wish them the best.

Just because I posted a picture of storm clouds.......

The Toronto Island is my past not my Fantasy Island, Tattoo......

Really now......

[365TAS]

...and anyway, judging from the photo angle etc those storm clouds are either shortly over head city hall or are on the app/dep path from YYZ.

...also next garbage strike perhaps the TPA can offer either the western channel or the end of 26 to be a dumping ground.

[dashx]

[tonysoprano]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... le1299533/

Here we go again.

[dashx]

So are you saying Buy Jazz stock since its up one cent?

Now we all know that Jazz will come back to YTZ. Don't we???

Except now instead of City Express vs Air Ontario it will be Porter vs Jazz/ghosts of Air Ontario/Air Canada

I am just waiting for the new terminal to open (I believe the enthusiasts say Nov....(this year I hope)) and see where (oh where) Jazz will have a space.

But hey don't stop at Jazz. Why not have space for Continental (after all they too have Q400's).

Tony it's time Jazz actually went to Bombardier with an bona fide order.

Otherwise its will be 20 year old planes (some with refurbished interiors......oh ya) vs brand new (and soon to come "Next Gen" Q400's.....

BTW I've been informed (correctly I hope) that Druxy's will have a space in the new terminal.

And pls remember I am not a Porter hater and I am a Jazz lover...(well I like Jazz but just not that much.....)

But hey just to quote Babe Bennett: "I'm just goofin' around, that's all!"

[tonysoprano]

So are you saying Buy Jazz stock since its up one cent?

I'm not saying anything. But you seem to be saying something. Not sure what though.

Now we all know that Jazz will come back to YTZ. Don't we???

Looks like they're going to try.

Except now instead of City Express vs Air Ontario it will be Porter vs Jazz/ghosts of Air Ontario/Air Canada

Yep.

I am just waiting for the new terminal to open (I believe the enthusiasts say Nov....(this year I hope)) and see where (oh where) Jazz will have a space.

Maybe the new terminal? Maybe on the beach? Who knows? That's trivial at this point.

But hey don't stop at Jazz. Why not have space for Continental (after all they too have Q400's).

Excellent idea!!!

Tony it's time Jazz actually went to Bombardier with an bona fide order.

Why?

Otherwise its will be 20 year old planes (some with refurbished interiors......oh ya) vs brand new (and soon to come "Next Gen" Q400's.....

Yep, you're right. But I'm willing to bet those old clunker 100's are still cheaper to operate than brand new, "Next Gen", Q400s.... Anyway, Stay tuned. You might be surprised in the near future...

[Canoehead]

Well, word has it that Jazz will be making a 'significant' announcement in the next couple of weeks. Also heard that Jazz has 'unofficially confirmed' that 400's are indeed coming. Porter is looking pretty good right now (from the outside anyway). I think AC/Jazz might have finally realized that we actually have some competition here in the 'Triangle'. Typically though, I'm afraid it's too-little-too-late. Senior management sleeping at the switch again!?

[W5]

Jazz eyes Toronto airport return

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... le1299533/

[dashx]

In the end it will come down to the price of the ticket. As it always does.

You might be surprised in the near future

Please, surprise me.........

[C-FABH]

"We operated at the island airport for 18 years before we were evicted," Mr. Randell said yesterday during a Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce investment webcast. "We're looking forward to getting back in there."

Too bad Jazz squandered their opportunity. Didn't they announce they wanted to operate jets into YTZ during the last municipal election, in an attempt to kill Porter's chances? I say, stop being a sore loser and accept the fact you blew it.

[Valhalla]

I am very curious where Jazz plans to put their airplanes. There is barely enough space for Porter... I'd love to find out what Porter would charge as a lease fee to Jazz to operate out of Porter's terminal. Maybe Papalardo's trailer would be cheaper.

One thing is for sure, Air Canada has no long term interest in operating out of the island.

[tonysoprano]

There is barely enough space for Porter...

How will this affect Porter's future expansion plans? Does this mean there is a limit to the number of airplanes that can be added to the fleet?

[ivanhoe]

[quote="dashx"]In the end it will come down to the price of the ticket.


And a boatload of aeroplan points... a very strong incentive for many

[dashx]

Air Canada has no long term interest in operating out of the island

It never did.

But please remind me ...... What exactly was Deluce's involvement way back when (oh lets say 18 years.....) with Air Ontario Air Canada the island airport?

What position did he hold with any of the above mentioned companies? Or what exactly were his interests back then?

Pls pls pls remind me......

[pointyertoes]

I personally cannot wait to see Jazz attempt to return to CYTZ.
It's fair to say no-one at Porter cares in the least if they return, for the following reasons:
1. By April, Porter will have accepted all 20 aircraft and there will be only 6 departure/arrival slots per day left for other operators.
2. Jazz will have to rent space from Porter in the new terminal (or build something of their own, where, I don't know)
3. Jazz will have to buy gas from Porter (unless they somehow arrange their own supply)
4. The ILS 26 steep approach (the most common IFR approach) requires an AFM supplement, op spec and training that Jazz does not posess (an expensive proposition for 6 slots)
5. Last I checked, the old Dash 8 is about 100kts slower (and quite a few dB louder), pax will love this after the 400 ...maybe the free booze will take their mind off that... oh yeah, never mind.
6. The trickle of Jazz pax will help to pay for new infrastructure (read tunnel) through Port Authority fees
7.Guess who's gonna control the apron when the new terminal opens?

...like I said, I cannot wait.

[ivanhoe]

I personally cannot wait to see Jazz attempt to return to CYTZ.
It's fair to say no-one at Porter cares in the least if they return, for the following reasons:
1. By April, Porter will have accepted all 20 aircraft and there will be only 6 departure/arrival slots per day left for other operators.
2. Jazz will have to rent space from Porter in the new terminal (or build something of their own, where, I don't know)
3. Jazz will have to buy gas from Porter (unless they somehow arrange their own supply)
4. The ILS 26 steep approach (the most common IFR approach) requires an AFM supplement, op spec and training that Jazz does not posess (an expensive proposition for 6 slots)
5. Last I checked, the old Dash 8 is about 100kts slower (and quite a few dB louder), pax will love this after the 400 ...maybe the free booze will take their mind off that... oh yeah, never mind.
6. The trickle of Jazz pax will help to pay for new infrastructure (read tunnel) through Port Authority fees
7.Guess who's gonna control the apron when the new terminal opens?

...like I said, I cannot wait.

All good points.

Unfortunately they don't matter. AC doesn't have a history of making fiscally responsible moves. They will come in and divide the pie resulting in blood on the balance sheet for both carriers. It's all about market share for them at any cost.

[neophyte]

I am not taking sides on the matter but to answer the questions: (in my opinion)

1. By April, Porter will have accepted all 20 aircraft and there will be only 6 departure/arrival slots per day left for other operators.

How many slots does Jazz need to operate at their pre Porter (2005 and earlier) service?

2. Jazz will have to rent space from Porter in the new terminal (or build something of their own, where, I don't know)

Porter has Jazz on this one, but how high can the lease be without the competition bureau being brought in?

3. Jazz will have to buy gas from Porter (unless they somehow arrange their own supply)

See above

4. The ILS 26 steep approach (the most common IFR approach) requires an AFM supplement, op spec and training that Jazz does not posess (an expensive proposition for 6 slots)

Operators have carried out business out the YTZ for many years. There is rarely a time when the ILS is required. I flew into YTZ for a few years and can think of only one or two instances where we couldn't get in on the circling approach.

5. Last I checked, the old Dash 8 is about 100kts slower (and quite a few dB louder), pax will love this after the 400 ...maybe the free booze will take their mind off that... oh yeah, never mind.

Pax don't care about speed, or noise, they care about $$$ and frequent flyer points.

6. The trickle of Jazz pax will help to pay for new infrastructure (read tunnel) through Port Authority fees.

Both companies benefit.

7.Guess who's gonna control the apron when the new terminal opens?

It will be at pilots discretion no?


One thing is for sure, it will be interesting watch.

Good luck folks.

[Valhalla]

There is barely enough space for Porter...

How will this affect Porter's future expansion plans? Does this mean there is a limit to the number of airplanes that can be added to the fleet?

There are a limited number of airplanes that can be based at the island, so any future expansion would have to be from an outstation. There are lots of rumors of direct flights from Ottawa, Montreal and Halifax to points other than Toronto (we start Halifax - St. John's in a couple of weeks).

[dashx]

Jazz will have to buy gas from Porter

And who had the Esso franchise before Porter took it over from him?

Why Victor Pappalardo had it of course.....

And why did Deluce get it? Because Esso gave it to him (oh to be sure he was a long time Esso operator....) And maybe he said something (kind of like take it or leave it....)

Last I checked, the old Dash 8 is about 100kts slower

Yes that's true (how much slower is a Dash 7 or a Saunders......) Now instead of the Dash 7 being slower the Dash 8 is slower. Funny how things change and yet remain the same.

The ILS 26 steep approach

Air Ontario was flying into the island oh I dont know. Oh wait 18 years ago. And what were they using back then? I don't see anything out there taller than the smoke stack. Besides if they need to divert at least they know where to go......

Guess who's gonna control the apron when the new terminal opens

Dem's fightin' words son.......

Jazz will have to rent space from Porter in the new terminal (or build something of their own, where, I don't know

i know the air ambulance hangar.........

we start Halifax - St. John's in a couple of weeks).

Its always good to see new operators making the same mistakes as the ones before them.

But you know what they say: nothing happens if you don't try....

[V1RotateV2]

2. Jazz will have to rent space from Porter in the new terminal (or build something of their own, where, I don't know)

Porter has Jazz on this one, but how high can the lease be without the competition bureau being brought in?

Porter will have a very simple answer for this: "Sorry we do not have any space available, we can hardly fit our planes here".
End of story. Jazz either operates from the corner's old crappy building or the air ambulance hangar. It will just not happen. Jazz should stop licking their wounds and move on. When they had their chance they blew it.

Quote:
we start Halifax - St. John's in a couple of weeks).

Its always good to see new operators making the same mistakes as the ones before them.

But you know what they say: nothing happens if you don't try....

Next time you are in Halifax ask about the new Porter flights. The locals, ramp agents and CSRs can hardly wait for those flights to start. And I was talking to WJ and AC guys and gals!

[invertedattitude]

Come on YTZ-YQM-YYT Porter!

[Stan_Cooper]

Jazz should stop licking their wounds and move on. When they had their chance they blew it.

Why the hate for Jazz? Jazz has nothing to do with it except that they fly the airplane. If Air Canada tells Jazz to start a base in YTZ again, they will. For that matter, licking what wounds? Jazz wasn't mortally wounded by the eviction from YTZ. Us pilots just drive airplanes anyways. Instead of having a pissing contest about whose company is better (answer: Porter's is longer, but Jazz has more girth,) maybe we could be working on getting the long-overdue reciprocal jumpseat agreement set up.

As far as the product, they're not really the same (as many have now pointed out.) If I wanted to drink free booze and arrive seven minutes earlier and didn't care about aeroplan points, then I would book on Porter. Oh and nice terminal nice airplanes blah blah blah.

Who will the I book on if I want to fly from YTZ to YBG or YUY? How about GVA?

To summarize: We pilots just get paid to fly the airplane, and Porter and Jazz don't compete against each other.

[dashx]

What????

Jazz is not a typical airline

We have a commercial agreement with Air Canada that is the core of our business. Under the Capacity Purchase Agreement (CPA), Air Canada purchases substantially all of Jazz’s seat capacity based on predetermined rates. Essentially, we operate flights on behalf of Air Canada as a contract carrier under the brand name Air Canada Jazz.

We operate over 800 flights daily to more than 80 destinations across North America. Our fleet of regional jets and turboprop aircraft provide passengers with seamless connections to the worldwide networks of Air Canada and the Star Alliance.

And neither is Porter..........

http://www.airportbusiness.com/print/Ai ... BO/1$30405

Airline and an FBO....... Well i guess Porter is not a typical airline either


But wait here's solid gold endorsements......

federal Transport and Infrastructure Minister John Baird joked that private investment often results in faster job creation than stimulus money.

Jean-Marc Lalonde, parliamentary secretary to Ontario Economic Development Minister Michael Bryant, declared himself a frequent Porter flyer and said he wanted to publicly thank Mr. Deluce for providing a convenient airline with stellar service.

"Was I ever glad when they got this reinstated here on the island. I didn't get to be stuck in the traffic to Pearson to Queen's Park every morning when I have to travel," Mr. Lalonde said. "Now, within 15 minutes of getting off the plane, I'm over at Queen's Park



Read more: http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada ... z0SJe9zuZU

Ah those wild and crazy guys....

Oh but wait didn't a lawsuit result in a payout (or... a handout???....)???

Jazz, Air Canada's regional carrier, was the only airline to offer continuous service from Toronto Island in recent years.

Its month-to-month lease was held by City Centre Aviation, which is owned by Deluce's holding company

(old news)......



Not in competition???

[Valhalla]

Instead of having a pissing contest about whose company is better (answer: Porter's is longer, but Jazz has more girth,) maybe we could be working on getting the long-overdue reciprocal jumpseat agreement set up.

Stan, thank you for the word of reason! I couldn't agree more.

Good news - Porter upper management finally agreed to aprove Porter pilot reciprocal jumpseat agreements, so it should be set up sooner rather than later.