How Should I Protest?

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beaverbob
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by beaverbob »

Run for council, campaign on parking relief and police discrimination. :smt014
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Donald
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by Donald »

I'm normally all for fighting the system, but it sounds like you really didn't do your homework when you decided where to live. Is the parking prohibition based on another issue besides the snow clearing, like the width of the boulevard? What if your neighbours decided they wanted to park on the opposite side of the road as well, would it still be passable?

To protest it by taking a dump on a cop's car, or shoving donuts in his mailbox? Well good luck and please post the pics of your tazer scars or bullet holes, or maybe just post your invite to the Darwin awards!
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by laticsdave »

Wait until the snow plow is out doing it's job, then whip it out (your vehicle!!) and then drive very slowly in front of the plow (i.e. more slowly than the plow would normally go - maybe get a video camera set up pointing backwards at the plow so the resulting entertainment can be posted on youtube for our enjoyment, or for your insurance claim when the plow tares your car a new arsehole!).
That was my "up yours" to Langley City Council after getting a ticket for parking on the street at 9:02am one day (no parking from 9-11am on Wednesdays, for road sweeping!) - so for about 15 minutes I drove very slowly in front of the sweeper, stopping at all Stop signs for as long as I thought I could get away with (well, you have to ensure it is clear before you move on!). I don't know just how pissed off the sweeper driver got, but it did make me feel better!!

Or...... when it snows lots, go out and pour some water in the snow and hopefully end up with lots of ice blocks , and see how the plow deals with it.... hmmm, maybe a future topic for mythbusters.
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by mantogasrsrwy »

Sounds like your cop neighbor is a real prick. Rather than shitting on his hood, I would piss all over his door handles. :smt040
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albertdesalvo
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by albertdesalvo »

niss wrote:I have to clear YOUR fucking sidewalk but get a ticket for parking on it. WE own the fucking boulevard but get a ticket for parking on it.
Fundamental error here, you don't own the boulevard. It falls within the municipal road allowance.
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by HS-748 2A »

I had to look this up but if you are able gain access to this guy's can - maybe it does deserve some serious consideration..

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... PPERDECKER
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by niss »

I am pleading not guilty as due to the definition of a Boulevard in the by-law I did not park on one.
1. For the purpose of this By-law:
(a) "Boulevard" means all parts of streets, except the part thereof used for vehicular
traffic and lying between a cement curb or ditch purporting to mark the limit of the
traveled portion of such street and the street line nearest thereto.

http://www.barrie.ca/WCMAdmin/Images/ww ... ly%209.pdf
2.1.8.0.0 Street Line - means the limit of the street or highway allowance and is the
dividing line between a lot and a street;


http://www.barrie.ca/WCMAdmin/Images/ww ... 0Dec08.pdf
Boulevard is all parts of the streets, except the part thereof .... and lying between a cement curb or ditch purporting to mark the limit of the traveled portion of such a street and the street line nearest thereto.

I parked on an area between the curb line and the sidewalk, which is definitely between the curb and the streetline (property/lot line).

I parked in the area that is actually the exception to the definition of a boulevard. It is not up to the metermaid/cop to re-define an established definition, nor is it his job to interpret the law how ever they please, it is their job to enforce it. He is supposed to give tickets to those parking on a boulevard, not for parking on a place that is outside the definition?

So is my defense airtight? Otherwise I am playing the race card.
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by albertdesalvo »

niss wrote:So is my defense airtight? Otherwise I am playing the race card.
You are hanging your defense on the ambiguity of the wording, specifically the inclusion of the word "and". Whoever wrote that definition fucked it up if you ask me. Boulevard means any part of the street allowance that's not the road. The street line is going to be somewhere on your front lawn, and anything between that line and the curb is the boulevard. I would imagine there's plenty of case law to back the city on this point. For a judge to find in your favour, he would essentially be tossing out the bylaw. Ain't gonna happen.

You want to know how to beat parking tickets? Use the "defense of necessity". I have done it, and it works.
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by albertdesalvo »

laticsdave wrote:Or...... when it snows lots, go out and pour some water in the snow and hopefully end up with lots of ice blocks , and see how the plow deals with it....
Ha ha ha! In Barrie?? We are talking about the snow capital of the universe here! Their plows have seen a lot worse than a few ice cubes. :lol:
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by niss »

albertdesalvo wrote:
niss wrote:So is my defense airtight? Otherwise I am playing the race card.
You are hanging your defense on the ambiguity of the wording, specifically the inclusion of the word "and". Whoever wrote that definition fucked it up if you ask me. Boulevard means any part of the street allowance that's not the road. The street line is going to be somewhere on your front lawn, and anything between that line and the curb is the boulevard. I would imagine there's plenty of case law to back the city on this point. For a judge to find in your favour, he would essentially be tossing out the bylaw. Ain't gonna happen.

You want to know how to beat parking tickets? Use the "defense of necessity". I have done it, and it works.
Really? I thought that between the curb and the street line was a pretty clear exception?
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by albertdesalvo »

niss wrote:Really? I thought that between the curb and the street line was a pretty clear exception?
Take out the word "and" and put a comma in its place. How does it look now?
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by niss »

I don't see it any different, it says except, then curb and streetline.
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albertdesalvo
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by albertdesalvo »

Like I said, I believe the writer screwed up by putting in the word "and" when it wasn't necessary. Let's take a look at it the way it should have been written:

(a) "Boulevard" means all parts of streets, except the part thereof used for vehicular
traffic,
lying between a cement curb or ditch purporting to mark the limit of the
traveled portion of such street and the street line nearest thereto.

Now let's remove the italicized exception:

(a) "Boulevard" means all parts of streets lying between a cement curb or ditch purporting to mark the limit of the
traveled portion of such street and the street line nearest thereto.

This is the correct definition of the boulevard. Anything between the limit of the road (the curb line) and the street line is the boulevard.
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niss
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by niss »

albertdesalvo wrote:Like I said, I believe the writer screwed up by putting in the word "and" when it wasn't necessary. Let's take a look at it the way it should have been written:

(a) "Boulevard" means all parts of streets, except the part thereof used for vehicular
traffic,
lying between a cement curb or ditch purporting to mark the limit of the
traveled portion of such street and the street line nearest thereto.

Now let's remove the italicized exception:

(a) "Boulevard" means all parts of streets lying between a cement curb or ditch purporting to mark the limit of the
traveled portion of such street and the street line nearest thereto.

This is the correct definition of the boulevard. Anything between the limit of the road (the curb line) and the street line is the boulevard.
Fair enough but that is not the way it is written. I parked there with the understanding that I was conforming with the bylaw as defined within it.
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by Brewguy »

I believe the only technicality you could look into, would be where the actual street line (boundary between your actual lot, and the road allowance / street) is located. i.e. the actual land survey for the official municipal planning.

Typically, the paved portion of a road only runs down the center portion of that allowance, and most municipal plans leave themselves a chunk of land on either side for future expansions ... but not necessarily. With some newer subdivisions, the official municipal plan does not leave them with additional space, in which case it may not be a boulevard. You need to know exactly where your lot line is.

Not to drag this thread too far off topic, but that same issue (road allowance being municipal property and not part of your lot) is why the Ontario Superior Court voided many municipal snow clearing bylaws. In most municipalities, the sidewalk is on city property. As such, they are responsible for it, and cannot 'download' responsibility for its maintenance onto the residents. How can they ticket you for failing to maintain their property for them?
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by albertdesalvo »

niss wrote:Fair enough but that is not the way it is written. I parked there with the understanding that I was conforming with the bylaw as defined within it.
And that is a valid defence (I like my defence with a "c", defense is American), but one which is doomed to fail IMO. The crown and the judge are going to rely on case law, and there should be plenty in support of the bylaw. If you're going to go in with this defence, you better find some case law to support it. And let's face it, the crown has a huge advantage here, he can probably recite the case law off the top of his head.

I would still take it to trial, though. In any parking infraction, there's a good chance the officer who gave you the ticket will not show up to testify, especially if it's a real cop and not a bylaw officer. No officer, guaranteed case dismissal.
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by albertdesalvo »

Brewguy wrote:I believe the only technicality you could look into, would be where the actual street line (boundary between your actual lot, and the road allowance / street) is located. i.e. the actual land survey for the official municipal planning.
A call to the public works dept would help, they'd be more than happy to mark the street line. But niss said the car was parked between the curb and the sidewalk. The sidewalk is obviously on city property, so its equally obvious the area between the walk and the curb is the city's.
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by albertdesalvo »

Brewguy wrote:the Ontario Superior Court voided many municipal snow clearing bylaws. In most municipalities, the sidewalk is on city property. As such, they are responsible for it, and cannot 'download' responsibility for its maintenance onto the residents. How can they ticket you for failing to maintain their property for them?
I would love to see this tested further. Most houses, the street line is halfway up the front lawn. Why, then, should you cut the grass on the city side of the line? It's their property, they should do it. :twisted:
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by albertdesalvo »

So, um, Niss.....

Have you made a decision how you're going to fight this thing?

Did you research the defence of necessity?

Would you like to see a case where the defence of necessity was successful?

I am not suggesting you lie under oath, heaven fordbid, but if you had no other reasonable choice but to park the car where it was, you have a duty to the court and to the administration of justice to take the witness stand and tell the truth.

Where's Wilbur when you need him, he's a much better phony lawyer than I?
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by niss »

If you have an example of the Defense of neccesity, I will take it, also do you know where I could find examples of case law to support my defense?

Now being as this is a by-law would it be the City of Barrie V. Niss like a civil court idea or would it still actually be the crown?

I plan on going for the trifecta, Defense of Neccesity (at the time I had no where else to park and I had received tickets for the street and parking across the sidewalk, I did not want to break the law again), Defense of mistake of fact (I had no intention of breaking the law, I did not understand that to park there was illegal (wikipedia tells me I had no mens rea)). I plan on seguaying my Mistake of fact dfns into a I didn't know I was breaking a law because according to the way you wrote the by-law I did nothing wrong.

And all this will fall on to the "I see everyone parking on the boulevard around me but they get no tickets, I cannot help but feel that has a little more to do with the fact that they have Christmas lights up and I do not" defense.

And if that does not work I will just try on a glove that is way too small and tell the judge that if the glove doesn't fit you must acquit.
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by niss »

I went to CanLII and did a search under Barrie & Boulevard and found no cases pertaining to parking infractions and the defenition of boulevard.

Wouldn't a case concerning the ambiguity of a law end up here?
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by Brewguy »

I like it. If nothing else, going and making your argument is a nice way to blow off steam.

But realistically, it usually boils down to:
the cop shows up in court = you're stuck with the ticket.
the cop doesn't bother to show up = you're let off the hook.

Here's a thought: Perhaps you can dress up in the Colonel Sandersesque guise of a 'southern gentleman', and when its your turn, stand up, loop your thumbs through your suspenders and with your best 'southern drawl' start by saying "Well sir, I may not be one of them big city lawyers...".

My theory is that some miserable traffic court judge may be entertained enough he'll let you off just for brightening his day... combined of course with your above noted plan of attack.
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by niss »

I go to trial March 10th.

If it doesn't go the way I want how do I apply for an appeal?

I don't even give a shit, I am going to keep fighting this....
I'm gonna pull the whole thing down. I'm gonna bring the whole fuckin' diseased, corrupt temple down on your head. It's gonna be biblical.
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by niss »

I filed my request for Disclosure today.

Bring it on!
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Re: How Should I Protest?

Post by niss »

Well, case close.

I had my day in court today.... Prosecution put the coals to me before the trial. I got so flustered and confused that I ended up putting in a Plea of Guilty with an Explanation.

Informed the JOP of my research before parking and how convoluted the by-law is, also how everyone in the neighborhood parks like I did with no tickets, thus validating my thought.

He agreed with me that it is very confusing and very poorly written, for that reason he lowered it from $30 to $20, which is exactly what I would have paid if I had paid early.

Some look at this as a loss, I however see it as a draw. Sure I paid, but the judge agreed with me on my interpretation of the by-law and that to me counts as a win in principal.

I am still disappointed that I didn't plea Not Guilty, after all the prep I did, etc.

But dems the breaks. I'll get them next time.
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