Spanish Sharia Court sentences woman to death

[niss]

None. That was back in the good ol' days ... before terrorism existed

Incidentally, I never mentioned the words 'terrorism' or 'terrorist' in my previous post.

You are right. Your quote of SCM confused me....try to work on that in the future.

[Rockie]

Sharia Law came close to being permitted right here in Ontario 4-5 years back. Fortunately Dalton McGimpy saw how utterly dangerous it would be and shut it down. But it was seriously being considered.

A more appropriate name for it is Misogyny Law.

[scm]

"Good people will do good, Evil people will do evil, but it takes religion to make a good person do evil."

On that note, there are evil people that have become good through religion.

[BTD]

People don't kill in the name of atheism because atheism isn't a thing. There is no atheist creed, no atheist doctrine, and no singular atheist organisation. Atheism is simply absence of belief in a deity (which by itself, incidentally, isn't religion).

My point exactly. Nobody sacrafices anybody to a nothing, because it doesn't make sense.

Stalin and the others I mentioned certainly killed in the name of Communism-an atheist system of belief. So do we judge all atheists by a few fanatics who abused power? I don't.

Indeed, but again they are killing based the political belief, not because they are atheists. They just also happen to be atheists.

Fanaticism is evil no matter what religion or source. The Nazis are a perfect example of this. While many were Christian, it was not Christian doctrine that defined their beliefs.

Agreed.

People are either good, or evil, or change because of their own choices. Many religions (perhaps all of them) have turned good people into bad people. But you don't need religion to do that. Street gangs have done so without any religion at all. But I have yet to hear of any evil person turning from evil ways because of atheism

Again, agreed. The argument isn't that, it is only organized religion, that creates "evil", it is just another factor that can create it. While atheism in and of itself, doesn't lead people to kill.

I pretty much agree with you on every point.

[Dust Devil]

If this happened in Canada, there'd already be a group calling for a rock registry.

If that happened in Canada there would be a lobby group trying to defend them probably accusing Harper of torturing them.

[BoostedNihilist]

We should just all get together in our ivory tower and decide what cultural morality we can impose on others.

[Mach1]

We should just all get together in our ivory tower and decide what cultural morality we can impose on others.

OURS!! This is our country; if you come here you live by our rules. If you don't like our rules, don't come here. There are plenty of Sharia countries out there already, so don't come here and try to force me to live by your version of morality. And that is what is going on in Spain... an attempt to impose one culture on another. If you left home because you didn't like it there... leave your baggage there too!

[BoostedNihilist]

OURS!! This is our country; if you come here you live by our rules. If you don't like our rules, don't come here. There are plenty of Sharia countries out there already, so don't come here and try to force me to live by your version of morality. And that is what is going on in Spain... an attempt to impose one culture on another. If you left home because you didn't like it there... leave your baggage there too!

#1: we are talking about spain, who have decided that sharia law is unacceptable, so if you mean impose our views on them, well, it looks like they've imposed their views independent of what we want based on their values.

#2: I don't care about borders or government, it is beyond the scope any individual or group to decide for anyone else what morality should and should not be. Simply because a bunch of people are organized into a state does not in my opinion give them the right to impose their morality on anybody else. I realize that this is not reality however when it comes down to issues of right and wrong reality rarely has an impact. I do not see this as a singular issue of sovereignty merely the extension of the anti-islamic sentiment held by so many in the west.

[sky's the limit]

And that is what is going on in Spain... an attempt to impose one culture on another.

So I take it we should have a problem with countries exporting their "culture," values, and economic policies as well? I know I do... just another lens through which to view some of the current events of the past few years. For the sake of consistency if nothing else.


stl

[Nark]

#2: I don't care about borders or government, it is beyond the scope any individual or group to decide for anyone else what morality should and should not be. Simply because a bunch of people are organized into a state does not in my opinion give them the right to impose their morality on anybody else. I realize that this is not reality however when it comes down to issues of right and wrong reality rarely has an impact. I do not see this as a singular issue of sovereignty merely the extension of the anti-islamic sentiment held by so many in the west.

First bold statement: That group is called the Supreme Court.

Second bold statement: This is an issue, of one UNIVERSAL law that applies to all citizens and VISITORS within a sovereign nation, Spain, US, Canada etc...

[Brewguy]

...If you don't like our rules, don't come here. There are plenty of Sharia countries out there already, so don't come here and try to force me to live by your version of morality. And that is what is going on in Spain... an attempt to impose one culture on another. If you left home because you didn't like it there... leave your baggage there too!

Just one minor point of clarification for you Mach1 ... Islam isn't something 'new' to Spain. The Moors brought that 'baggage' with them when they invaded and occupied the Iberian peninsula early in the 8th century. After the decline of the Roman empire, that part of the world was Muslim for hundreds of years ... long before there was such a thing as "Spain".

I'm not justifying these unofficial sharia courts. Just saying that your 'if you don't like our way of life, don't come here' type of argument isn't exactly the most appropriate for this particular situation.

[bmc]

And that is what is going on in Spain... an attempt to impose one culture on another.

So I take it we should have a problem with countries exporting their "culture," values, and economic policies as well? I know I do... just another lens through which to view some of the current events of the past few years. For the sake of consistency if nothing else.


stl

Unless it's Team America. (@#$! Ya!)

[rigpiggy]

I'm not justifying these unofficial sharia courts. Just saying that your 'if you don't like our way of life, don't come here' type of argument isn't exactly the most appropriate for this particular situation.

Actually if I go and work in the Sandbox, I am expected to follow there laws/cultural taboos. turnabout is fair play. kind of like my bumper sticker "don't like my driving, dial 1800-f*ckoff"

[Mach1]

#1: we are talking about spain, who have decided that sharia law is unacceptable, so if you mean impose our views on them, well, it looks like they've imposed their views independent of what we want based on their values.

#2: I don't care about borders or government, it is beyond the scope any individual or group to decide for anyone else what morality should and should not be. Simply because a bunch of people are organized into a state does not in my opinion give them the right to impose their morality on anybody else. I realize that this is not reality however when it comes down to issues of right and wrong reality rarely has an impact. I do not see this as a singular issue of sovereignty merely the extension of the anti-islamic sentiment held by so many in the west.

So far, it looks like you agree with me on #1. Spain does not use Sharia law therefore people who have immigrated there should not be trying to force it upon the indigenous people of Spain (Being the Spanish and all).

As for point #2: I do not wish to force my values upon others... HOWEVER, I don't want other's values forced upon me. I am not entirely sure I understand any other point you are attempting to make there.

So I take it we should have a problem with countries exporting their "culture," values, and economic policies as well? I know I do... just another lens through which to view some of the current events of the past few years. For the sake of consistency if nothing else.
stl

I do have a problem with countries exporting their culture and values. Ours and theirs. So on this it appears we agree.

Just one minor point of clarification for you Mach1 ... Islam isn't something 'new' to Spain. The Moors brought that 'baggage' with them when they invaded and occupied the Iberian peninsula early in the 8th century. After the decline of the Roman empire, that part of the world was Muslim for hundreds of years ... long before there was such a thing as "Spain".

I'm not justifying these unofficial sharia courts. Just saying that your 'if you don't like our way of life, don't come here' type of argument isn't exactly the most appropriate for this particular situation.

[/quote]

I am aware of that history, but perhaps you can tell me how long those same Muslims have been openly practicing Sharia law in Spain and which part of the Spanish legal system recognizes this separate court system. If you are thinking I am anti-Muslim, you would be incorrect. Many (I am sure the majority) live peaceful lives and live within the established legal system of the country that they live in. I have a problem with a people who say we are imposing our culture upon someone else... when it is really the other way around. These guys knew the laws of Spain, whether they were born there or moved there is irrelevant, they chose to ignore those laws and subvert an entire culture/government/legal system for their own purposes. I can't abide by that. If I am in another country, I am expected to show respect for their laws and culture... that is a two way street.

[Mach1]

Unless it's Team America. (@#$! Ya!)

@#$! Ya!

Actually if I go and work in the Sandbox, I am expected to follow there laws/cultural taboos. turnabout is fair play. kind of like my bumper sticker "don't like my driving, dial 1800-f*ckoff"

Exactly!

[BoostedNihilist]

First bold statement: That group is called the Supreme Court.

Ahh, so your defense is hegemony? Okee there narkarooney

Second bold statement: This is an issue, of one UNIVERSAL law that applies to all citizens and VISITORS within a sovereign nation, Spain, US, Canada etc...

So, what is the adress for the court of universal law? Who sits as judge? Where can I find the statutes of this universal law? Is this universal law universal even on mars?

There is no such thing as universal law.. some thumper tried to pump this bs down my throat when I was growing up, it was bullshit then, it's bullshit now.

I would suspect if you asked a good muslim what his interpretation of universal was you would come up with a different, possibly contradictory version.. without consensus there is no universal law.. and so far as I know.. there is no consensus.

As for point #2: I do not wish to force my values upon others... HOWEVER, I don't want other's values forced upon me. I am not entirely sure I understand any other point you are attempting to make there.

Don't you think it a little hypocritical of the spanish to make character judgements of other religiions. Their basque conflict has been brutal.. and let's look at this seriously, spain singlehandedly was responsible for the destruction of SEVRAL cultures, and did not even stop there.. the inquisition? I am of the opinion that spain is not in the position to make a judgement call on morality, since their 'civilization' is built on genocide and torture.. but hey, who cares about history anymore anyways.

[Mach1]

Don't you think it a little hypocritical of the spanish to make character judgements of other religiions. Their basque conflict has been brutal.. and let's look at this seriously, spain singlehandedly was responsible for the destruction of SEVRAL cultures, and did not even stop there.. the inquisition? I am of the opinion that spain is not in the position to make a judgement call on morality, since their 'civilization' is built on genocide and torture.. but hey, who cares about history anymore anyways.

Ah yes, the two wrongs make a right and history vindicates me every time, argument. Nice attempt at a wind up, if that's what this is... if it isn't, I hope you receive some top quality therapy on your past life regressions... because you can't fix the past you can only move forward.

[Nark]

First bold statement: That group is called the Supreme Court.

Ahh, so your defense is hegemony? Okee there narkarooney


So, what is the adress for the court of universal law? Who sits as judge? Where can I find the statutes of this universal law? Is this universal law universal even on mars?

There is no such thing as universal law.. some thumper tried to pump this bs down my throat when I was growing up, it was bullshit then, it's bullshit now.

I would suspect if you asked a good muslim what his interpretation of universal was you would come up with a different, possibly contradictory version.. without consensus there is no universal law.. and so far as I know.. there is no consensus.

Perhaps you misunderstood what I said. Uni meaning one, versal meaning within boundary/jusrisdiction. Hence universal law that applies to all within Spain's jurisdiction. I don't want, nor do I advocate a universal law which applies to all sovereign nations. Spain's laws don't always work in the US, nor does US law work for Saudi's.

Hedgemony?

[ottawa,kan]

You know Boosted, it seems to me that the guys who founded this country, they did believe in a universal set of laws, and tried to establish a country where they would be protected. I think you could argue that they failed, but cocky as it was, they thought it could and should be done. They called them inalienable rights. Things like freedom of religion, the right to assemble, freedom of speech, freeedom from search and siezure in your house etc etc. The founding fathers maybe were wrong but they definitely did believe in universal laws. A women who commits adultery with another willing partner does seem to me to have an obvious and universal right to not be stoned to death for doing so. Divorced sure. Punished? Maybe. Put to death...no. And were the founders hypocrites? Hell you only have to look as far as slavery to say hell yes they were hypocrites. I don't think that rules out trying to do better later. Are we hypocrites trying to protect the blacks in Darfur from the Arab Sudanese when 250 years ago we bought black slaves from these same arabs? Possibly so. But the world moves on. Every culture can look back and wish they had treated somebody a lot better in the past. ANyway I believe there are universal laws. Not sure I could articulate or defend that idea but I believe it.

[iflyforpie]

ANyway I believe there are universal laws. Not sure I could articulate or defend that idea but I believe it.

It's the whole idea of absolute morality vs the moral majority. Unfortunately it is pretty hard to have absolute morality without the acknowledgement of a higher power.

[niss]

Are we hypocrites trying to protect the blacks in Darfur from the Arab Sudanese when 250 years ago we bought black slaves from these same arabs? Possibly so. But the world moves on. Every culture can look back and wish they had treated somebody a lot better in the past. ANyway I believe there are universal laws. Not sure I could articulate or defend that idea but I believe it.

The hypocrisy to me doesn't lie in the fact that 140 years ago you had slavery, to me it lies into the fact that there are still people around who remember having to ride in the back of a bus, not being allowed to use a certain water fountain or bench, and seeing friends or family lynched.

[mcrit]

We should just all get together in our ivory tower and decide what cultural morality we can impose on others.

Isn't that what these Sharia fella's are trying to do?

[Brewguy]

Okay. here's the thing ... I think many are looking at this the wrong way. All these 'forcing their morals on others' and 'importing their culture' type comments just don't quite sum up the situation.

Now, before I go any further, I AM NOT saying they are legal, or justified in doing this. What they are doing is contrary to the laws of the land in the area in which they're living. But such things aren't uncommon.

Think of this in the terms of, oh lets go with a Hollywood type example ... say the movie "A Few Good Men". In that movie, there was a group of people (the Marines) who had their own traditions, codes of conduct, etc. A member of that group violated that code of conduct, and so some of the group went about disciplining them in-house (with a 'code red'). Such in-house disciplining of ones own members wasn't necessarily legal ... but was commonly overlooked and 9 times out of 10, was 'no harm, no foul' type of a thing.

Now, before anyone jumps down my throat about it, I'm not saying that movie is a true to life depiction of the US Marines ... but as an example goes, its a good movie/story.

There are many, many examples of such groups in real life. Groups whose members subscribe to certain rules applicable only to themselves, and know they may face some form of punishment if they break them ... not from civil or criminal courts, but from within their own community.

Just think of the mob, gangs, etc. Not saying its only criminals that have this, but those are well known examples. Native / aboriginal peoples the world over may have their own customs for dealing with their community without involving 'government authorities'. If some catholic priest is found molesting little boys somewhere, the church may very well try to deal with it in-house too.

Many groups feel their own rules trump those of the government. Especially the religious ones.

I'm sure this type of thing happens every day, all over the world. You don't get all up in arms on here every time there is a mob hit, but as soon as its Muslims, all heck breaks loose. That's what's hypocritical.

Now, if they start dragging their Christian, Jewish, atheist & agnostic neighbours into Sharia courts, handing down sentences and punishing/killing non-Muslims, then go ahead talk to me about 'forcing their morals on others' ... but for now, they are just like any other group that does in-house discipline of their own, even if it involves breaking the law. It's not right, it's not legal, but it's neither new nor uncommon.

[iflyforpie]

I'm sure this type of thing happens every day, all over the world. You don't get all up in arms on here every time there is a mob hit, but as soon as its Muslims, all heck breaks loose. That's what's hypocritical.

Now, if they start dragging their Christian, Jewish, atheist & agnostic neighbours into Sharia courts, handing down sentences and punishing/killing non-Muslims, then go ahead talk to me about 'forcing their morals on others' ... but for now, they are just like any other group that does in-house discipline of their own, even if it involves breaking the law. It's not right, it's not legal, but it's neither new nor uncommon.

Well said...

[mcrit]

....but for now, they are just like any other group that does in-house discipline of their own....

Stoning a woman to death is not 'in-house discipline'.

Besides, exempting one ethnic group from the Constitution is a bad plan, it just permits the weaker members of that ethnic group to be exploited by the stronger ones. Canada's aboriginal reserve system is a good example of this.