King Air E90 Cockpit

[Big Pistons Forever]

Regarding when to carry out the after landing checks. The rule I use is

Single pilot: Nothing moves untill the aircraft is clear of runway and stopped.

2 Crew: After landing actions starts when called for by Capt and after aircraft has slowed to taxi speed. This call would be delayed untill clear of runway/stopped if there is a reason why the FO should not be heads down.

[Brown Bear]

Flpas up? Flaps down? To beta, or not to beta? Brakes or no brakes? Who GARA?? Just leave the bloody gear down!!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Flpas up? Flaps down? To beta, or not to beta? Brakes or no brakes? Who GARA?? Just leave the bloody gear down!!

Since retract the gear instead of the flaps accidents unfortunately are still occuring I would thing that many pilots might actually "GARA" by learning from the situations that caused other pilots to make a very expensive mistake. Or are you one of those pilots that are too good to have accidents......

[Doc]

Flpas up? Flaps down? To beta, or not to beta? Brakes or no brakes? Who GARA?? Just leave the bloody gear down!!

Since retract the gear instead of the flaps accidents unfortunately are still occuring I would thing that many pilots might actually "GARA" by learning from the situations that caused other pilots to make a very expensive mistake. Or are you one of those pilots that are too good to have accidents......

Big Pistons, pilots have these little accidents because the act without thinking. Have you retracted the gear on landing? Have you forgotten to put the gear down? Have you ever run the tanks dry over a city? Neither have I. It seems to me, we're spending a lot of time beating a dead horse here. It matters not where the flap lever is or, for that matter, what it looks like. Most pilots that actually make a living flying, KNOW where the flap lever is, and for that matter, what it looks like. I know I do. I hope you do as well. It's just that most make a conscious to retract the flaps, and not the gear. Unless they find a way to run twenty thousand volts through the gear lever when there is weight on the wheels, pilot will continue to screw up. Everybody is in such a big hurry. There is no rush here, folks.
Using the location of the flap lever, in relation of the gear lever as an excuse, is just that. An excuse.
We can't just pooch it. We need an excuse.

[SeptRepair]

I wonder if transit bus drivers ever step on the gas instead of the brake? Naaa that would be complete and udder stupidiness wouldnt it?

[AuxBatOn]

Doc,

The guy scred up, sure! No question about that. However, if the flaps lever was placed, I don't know, out of the gear handle way, would he have done the same mistake? Probably not. It's not about puting the blame somewhere else, it's about mitigating the risk of it happening again because, as human, we screw up.

[SAR_YQQ]

SAR_YQQ, just curious what vintage of 90s you guys have and what you use for a max gross weight.

We have the last true 90A/B's off the Beech line - the GT's were released right after Allied Wings bought our 7. That being said, without checking the manufacturing plate, I would say 2005'ish.

We use 10,100 as our max T/O - 9600 landing. Our max ramp weight is 10,160 lbs - who knows how the engineers came up with an extra 60lbs, but there it is.

[Doc]

Doc,

The guy scred up, sure! No question about that. However, if the flaps lever was placed, I don't know, out of the gear handle way, would he have done the same mistake? Probably not. It's not about puting the blame somewhere else, it's about mitigating the risk of it happening again because, as human, we screw up.

ROTFLMFAO!! Okay, you're correct of course. Just wondering what kind of screw up we can have without blaming the politically correct "mitigating factors" or the company "culture"? There always seems to be somebody, or something else with whom, or what we can share the blame? If we were to move the gear selector lever back to the lav? Would that make it just our fault? I mean, who/what else could we possibly blame? I guess it could be mistaken for the flushing mechanism? That would have it's moments.

[Brown Bear]

SAR_YQQ, just curious what vintage of 90s you guys have and what you use for a max gross weight.

We have the last true 90A/B's off the Beech line - the GT's were released right after Allied Wings bought our 7. That being said, without checking the manufacturing plate, I would say 2005'ish.

We use 10,100 as our max T/O - 9600 landing. Our max ramp weight is 10,160 lbs - who knows how the engineers came up with an extra 60lbs, but there it is.

Isn't that nice. Figured out where the gear and flap levers are yet? Kidding!

[AuxBatOn]

If we were to have a punitive system, pilots would be afraid to come forward and report their screw ups. In the end, we would be far worse than we are right now, in my opinion.

I never hesitated once to go see my Flight Safety Officer and tell him "I did this and this, does it warrant a Flight Safety report", even though I knew I was the one that screwed up. What this does is it will trigger an investigation if it is warranted and they will come up with ways to make the system better and safer and educate people on the issues.

As long as it's a honest mistake (ie: not something you do deliberately), everybody should learn from it and move on. There is absolutely nothing positive about lynching a guy in public for a honest mistake.

[Doc]

If we were to have a punitive system, pilots would be afraid to come forward and report their screw ups. In the end, we would be far worse than we are right now, in my opinion.

I never hesitated once to go see my Flight Safety Officer and tell him "I did this and this, does it warrant a Flight Safety report", even though I knew I was the one that screwed up. What this does is it will trigger an investigation if it is warranted and they will come up with ways to make the system better and safer and educate people on the issues.

As long as it's a honest mistake (ie: not something you do deliberately), everybody should learn from it and move on. There is absolutely nothing positive about lynching a guy in public for a honest mistake.

Absolutely no "lynching" intended. This was defiantly a mistake. A fairly bad one, but I can certainly see it. Easily cured with an update to the SOPs. I think the same thing happened to a Baron/Travel Air in YRL a year or so ago. Cockpit design could contribute, I guess. Having a hard time understanding how this company could have such poor luck. Their insurance company must be asking the same question?

[Cat Driver]

I find these conversations interesting.

Pilots have been flying airplanes with flaps and retractable gear for around a century and have been making the same mistakes over and over.

In most instances it is rushing to do something without any thought as to what exactly their hands are doing.

It is especially frustrating when there should be no rush to perform these actions.

It is great to have a sifting through the ashes after after the event exercise to try and come up with solutions to prevent such accidents in the future, however in many cases it is pure and simple pilot error caused by carelessness brought on by poor training and poor operating procedures.

[ahramin]

I was not suggesting that it should be SOP, but just stating that raising the flaps will give you improved braking action vs leaving the flaps down.

I was commenting on previous posts. No argument that until you slow down, you will get better braking with the flaps up.

[Flybaby]

who knows how the engineers came up with an extra 60lbs, but there it is.

ramp weight - maximum permissible weight of an aircraft, which exceeds maximum take-off weight by an allowance for fuel burned during engine-start and taxi.

[x-wind]

auxbaton quote:

"On most aircraft, the amount of drag generated by the flaps is less than the additional braking force you could get from dumping the lift off the wing by raising the flaps. You get, again on most aircraft, shorter landing distances if you raise the flaps and brake than leave the flaps down and brake."

I know, I think its a well understood concept.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Flpas up? Flaps down? To beta, or not to beta? Brakes or no brakes? Who GARA?? Just leave the bloody gear down!!

Since retract the gear instead of the flaps accidents unfortunately are still occuring I would thing that many pilots might actually "GARA" by learning from the situations that caused other pilots to make a very expensive mistake. Or are you one of those pilots that are too good to have accidents......

Big Pistons, pilots have these little accidents because the act without thinking. Have you retracted the gear on landing? Have you forgotten to put the gear down? Have you ever run the tanks dry over a city? Neither have I. It seems to me, we're spending a lot of time beating a dead horse here. It matters not where the flap lever is or, for that matter, what it looks like. Most pilots that actually make a living flying, KNOW where the flap lever is, and for that matter, what it looks like. I know I do. I hope you do as well. It's just that most make a conscious to retract the flaps, and not the gear. Unless they find a way to run twenty thousand volts through the gear lever when there is weight on the wheels, pilot will continue to screw up. Everybody is in such a big hurry. There is no rush here, folks.
Using the location of the flap lever, in relation of the gear lever as an excuse, is just that. An excuse.
We can't just pooch it. We need an excuse.

Doc

I have one accident in 23 + years of commercial flying. It was when a student raised the gear instead of the flaps on a touch and go landing during a ME rating training. It was caused, I firmly believe, by a lack of a touch and go landing SOP. I was the PIC so it was my fault, but it was not my momemtary lack of attention at just the wrong time that contributed to the accident it was my failing to understand the importance of SOP's to provide a layer of protection when you ( or in this case the student ) have a rush of shit to the brain.
An interesting comment about not ever landing gear up. I came close this summer when flying a light twin single pilot. Two distractions at a critical time and a rushed approach left me turning final with the gear still up. What saved me was a personal SOP. I have trained myself to always check gear down passing 500 ft on final. This last check saved my bacon.
My point to brown bear was the belief, which I have seen too often in new pilots. It is the idea that it is so obvious not to retract the gear on rollout that of course I never will do that .....untill some do. The really good pilots I have flown with all stacked the deck in their favour by developing a disciplined approach to their flying that served to reduce the number of ways they could F*** up.

[AuxBatOn]

I know, I think its a well understood concept.

Then I do not understand what you mean by this :

Otherwise, I believe it good airmenship to utilize the aerodynamic braking the flaps provide and retract when the landing is complete- off the runway.

[ahramin]

Easy auxbaton: leave the flaps down to help you slow down. Use brakes if required.

[AuxBatOn]

Easy auxbaton: leave the flaps down to help you slow down. Use brakes if required.

If you need brakes, I think we all agree that flaps up would be better. I still don't understand what he means, unless he never intends to use brakes.

[Doc]

Easy auxbaton: leave the flaps down to help you slow down. Use brakes if required.

If you need brakes, I think we all agree that flaps up would be better. I still don't understand what he means, unless he never intends to use brakes.

He kind of lost me on that one as well.

A thought. Lets use any strip we are all familiar with. How about YPM? I like to land with full flap, use almost no braking, just flatten the prop blades (beta, only) and use 90% of the available runway. I can get it down and stopped as quick as the next guy. Honest. But, what's the point? Really. In the summer, the props beat themselves to death in reverse. In the winter, the hotter the brakes get (granted the 90 is like a dune buggy, and this won't happen) the more likely they are to freeze. Not ramming it into reverse also keeps the ITT to a lower value. Unless there's somebody on your ass, what's the point of an intersection turn off? A more relaxed arrival makes it less likely to make stupid costly mistakes. Thoughts?

[AEROBAT]

Easy auxbaton: leave the flaps down to help you slow down. Use brakes if required.

If you need brakes, I think we all agree that flaps up would be better. I still don't understand what he means, unless he never intends to use brakes.

He means aerodynamic braking, drag from the flaps.

[flyinhigh]

Finally a great discussion without any name calling, bout time you all grew up you inbread hill billies, haha, kidding

but seriously finally a great discussion.

I still don't see how this could happen. As for the gear down aspects, I find it easy to see why they happen but also extremely hard to see why. In my short 5200 hour career from floats to the the RJ, there is once that I almost forgot the gear. I say almost as I was tought at a very early age of flying to get into certain habits, and the one habit i have that I still do in the jet today is just like Big pistons, I do a cockpit flow at about 1500 feet and another at around 500.

I'll be the first to say i'm not to proud to look like an idiot checking my gear 5 times on a approach if it means no paper work at the end of the day

[Doc]

My final check: Done, usually on fairly short final. A last ditch effort not to appear as the "star" of that night's "roast" on avcanada.ca!!

We got the flaps, we got the gear, the runways clear, it's time for beer.

Works for me. Every time.

[Cat Driver]

Like a lot here I also have a couple of extra personal checks I do regardless of what device I am flying.

My gear check is a little different, when turning final and on short final I ask myself " Where am I landing and where is my gear? " ( Sometimes turning final and on short final are the same thing. )

Twice during my career it has saved me from landing with the gear in the wrong position for the surface I was landing on.

[x-wind]

auxbaton qoute:

"If you need brakes, I think we all agree that flaps up would be better. I still don't understand what he means, unless he never intends to use brakes."

On shorter strips I brake with with the flaps down to help slow, yes it is a bit of a tradeoff that I can't use the brakes as effective, but, I don't need maximum preformance in the vast majority of my missions and its a positive habit in my opinion.