Bring your kid to work day ( JFK ATC)

[GoinNowhereFast]

I think this was quite funny. What's the worst that could happen? Kid doesn't say exactly what dad tells him to say, dad grabs mic and corrects. Perhaps the FAA should look into developing something called a "sense of humor".

[Rockie]

It's funny at Podunk municipal airport like Bede was talking about, where there isn't very much traffic, you know who it is, it isn't splattered all over the internet, and your boss doesn't catch you.

It isn't funny when it's at JFK, lots of traffic, nobody knows who it is, it is splattered all over the internet and your boss does catch you.

The FAA cannot possibly let this kind of violation and very public lack of judgement go unpunished.

[Wilbur]

All fun and games until the distraction of his kid causes the conroller to miss something and they have a midair, or even just a go around causing delays and costing some airline a bunch of money. It was an error in judgement on the part of the controller, and anyone who allowed him to have his kid there. However, it doesn't necessarily mean they should be fired or suspended.

[RatherBeFlying]

Sounds to me like the controller squared it with his supervisor and the workload was low.

Tower where all the movements are IFR can get pretty lonely during slow periods.

Contact ground on ....

Contact departure on ...

why not?

Hearing clear to land or take off from a kid, I'd immediately suspect the kid got his hands on a handheld.

[GoinNowhereFast]

First, that's why there's readbacks. If it was just some little brat playing a joke, the tower would be canceling clearances everywhere. They also likely wouldn't make any sense. A guy 3rd in line for departure gets cleared to land. A guy #2 on approach gets cleared to take-off, that sort of thing. Also, that kid sounded too young to know what to say without somebody telling him what to say.

[flyinthebug]

I just watched a piece on the news about this. The kids had a great day and so did the pilots that had contact with them! Have you listened to the tapes? The pilots were ALL laughing and having fun. These were obviously small kids and saying exactly what they were told. It was a quiet time of day by JFK standards and to suspend the controller and his supervisor is overkill beyond words!! The pilots were enjoying the kids, everyone was having a good time..Now, as a result of this good time, 2 people are suspended and kids are now forbidden from seeing inside a control tower?? What a shame!!! We are discussing whether its ok to bend the rules in another thread and to me this is a prime example of bending the rules and it NOT hurting anyone!!. Flight safety was never in any jeopardy just because a guy wanted to let his kids talk on the radio. Obviously the supervisor thought it was a good idea too! This is the most ridiculous overkill i`ve ever seen! Give the guy his job back TODAY and lighten up!! The way the Yanks overreact to things is becoming old and tired.
Morning Rant over.

[OhKiE DoHkIe]

The proverbial anal probing the travelling public has to endure at security checks to get to their flight is frustrating. The public perception that we should maintain a higher level of professionalism in such matters is a just one. So, by all rights it's not surprising the "anal" retentive ones are upset about this. They do have just cause to feel (somewhat) upset.

However,

The only difference between humor in the workplace between professionals in aviation vs. medical sugeons around a operating table is...the passengers are not under general anestesia and clueless to any bantering going on in such a serious environment. I wonder how the general publice would react if the "real" goings on in an operating room would be posted on youtube?

EVERYONE on the radios on NAVCANADA are professionals. I'd hate to see our ATC people be mandated lose that distinct Canadian welcoming persona on the radio because of this issolated incedent in the states.

Although, can we learn from this? Yes. Of course.

[Rockie]

Had there been an incident of some kind you guys would be all over this crying for the controller to be fired for unprofessionalism. The fact that there fortunately wasn't an incident changes nothing in the eyes of the FAA brass.

There was a clear and very public violation of the regulations and operating procedures. Unlike us, the FAA is required to respond to that in a responsible manner and will be held accountable if they don't. Nothing hard to understand there.

[Localizer]

Had there been an incident of some kind you guys would be all over this crying for the controller to be fired for unprofessionalism. The fact that there fortunately wasn't an incident changes nothing in the eyes of the FAA brass.

There was a clear and very public violation of the regulations and operating procedures. Unlike us, the FAA is required to respond to that in a responsible manner and will be held accountable if they don't. Nothing hard to understand there.

Rockie, why do you always play the part of Mother Hen?? ..

The guy brought his kids to work and they got to say a couple things on the radio. Im sure they were ecstatic from the opportunity. I've listen to the recording and it didn't sound like peak time at JFK .. actually sounded pretty quiet. Also if you heard the second news reports (11pm), they said that all the aircraft the kids spoke to, where given a heads up prior.

This industry at one time was fun and exciting, people had respect and admiration for everyone involved. Now .. remove all fun, remove respect, remove everything that made this industry attractive. You can still have fun and be safe ....


Cheers ..

[200hr Wonder]

Seems to me like people need to lighten up. Sigh recall the days when a kid could go onto the flight deck on in cruise? Gone. Now no tower visits, if this keeps up there will be no one to control airplanes in the future.

All jesting aside, I recall as a kid my dad took me to his office which happened to be a Caterpillar dealer. While there we got to sit inside the big machines and under careful supervision while on my dads lap I even got to pull a few levers and move a few hydraulic rams that made various bits go up and down and in and out. Wow was it fun and I still recall it 25 years later. Was there a chance that I could broke something or knocked down several rows of warehouse racking? Maybe? But seriously it was supervised experience for a young kid into what dad does. A father/son bonding experience, which are too few and far between these days for most kids. So give it a rest, give him his job back, make him so say sorry sir never do it again sir and then take the guy and his kid to .-e-cheeze for the trouble.

Then again the kid was more legible than some Air China pilots I have heard in JFK!

[Rockie]

Rockie, why do you always play the part of Mother Hen?? ..

Sometimes it's more like the responsible adult.

Many years ago while doing some night training at a certain military airport my wife was up in the tower and was allowed to clear me for takeoff over the radio. I thought it was great. My wife thought it was great. Everybody out there on frequency thought it was great. But we were looking at it from the bottom up.

The FAA has to look at it from the top down, and they are responsible for enforcing the regulations to ensure that kind of thing doesn't happen again. "Spoofing" is a known threat. You've all seen the NOTAMS that have appeared on it from time to time. And New York City doesn't exactly have a good relationship with airplanes.

This incident is also all over the mainstream news now. What do you expect the FAA to do? Nothing?

I'm sorry you dislike my take on some things, but I'm only expressing the viewpoint of those who are actually responsible to deal with it. Somebody has to be the grown-up...


Edit: "So give it a rest, give him his job back, make him so say sorry sir never do it again sir"

That may in fact be what happens after a little time on suspension and public attention is on to something else. So why get all outraged at this point just because he was suspended?

[Wilbur]

This is not the same as your dad letting pull some levers on a loader in the dealer's yard, it would be comparable to your dad taking you to a working construction site. Neither is it the same as surgeon's banter in the OR, it would be the same as the surgeon letting his kid make a few cuts.

If it was OK for this controller to have his kid on the radio, is it OK for every controller to do the same? If it was OK because it was slow, how slow does it have to be before it's OK? Should the FAA develop a standard for when it's OK to let your kids on the radio?

[Braun]

I can decide when to turn aircraft towards each other, sequences, wake turbulence issues, take off and departure clearances but I can't judge when traffic would permit something like this? Oh please, no one could ever get hurt from this. Would I do it? Hell no. Is it dangerous? Hell no. Does anyone really care that a kid said two or three transmissions? Yeah probably due to all the media hype that makes it sound like the most dangerous incident in aviation history, like usual.

[Rockie]

Let me see if I'm understanding this correctly. You're suggesting the FAA should implement a rule allowing untrained, unlicenced guests to issue ATC clearances and instructions over the radio at the discretion of the responsible controller?

[Braun]

No, I didn't say it was right. But it is out of proportion.

[spartacus]

I remember flying along one day a few years back on 'take your kid to work day' and was passed off to a new frequency by a little girl. "Contact Toronto Centre on XXX.XX" I thought it was the most awesome thing, and it put a smile on my face for the rest of the day.

this is just so ridiculous. And those of you crying about 'terrorists'....are you serious? Wow. Programming complete.

[Hedley]

We as a society must be vigilant about the exponential
growth of this "youth terrorism".

There is no doubt that all of the horrible people involved
in this heinous (I love that word - it makes me want to
write a limerick) crime will burn in hell for their sins
when they die.

However, between now and then, it is the responsibility
of all right-thinking people to be on guard against this
groundswell of youth terrorism.

Here is another terrible example of youth terrorism:

http://tinyurl.com/6csaod

[Dust Devil]

Let me see if I'm understanding this correctly. You're suggesting the FAA should implement a rule allowing untrained, unlicenced guests to issue ATC clearances and instructions over the radio at the discretion of the responsible controller?

Under direct supervision of a controller why not?

[cyeg66]

The media are reporting that not only the dad/controller has been suspended, but also his supervisor.

If they docked the controller's pay, did they at least pay the kid for his work? I think the kid's got a legitimate grievance...

...love to see how pilots would react to controllers talking that fast around here. They've got enough trouble keeping up right now. "Muss bee arr accenzzz"...

[Rockie]

I don't see how anything is blown out of proportion. If this hadn't been splashed all over the public it might have been handled internally with a memo saying don't anybody do it again, but that's not the case so the FAA has no choice but to publicly enforce their own rules. Aren't you the same guys who chastised them for not doing so when it comes to airline enforcement? What's the difference here?

Jeez, you would think he's been lined up against a wall and shot for cripes sake the way you guys are weeping for him. Do you think he didn't know his kid's not supposed to talk on the radio? He broke the rules, displayed poor judgement, and got caught. If he isn't prepared to stand at attention in front of his boss's desk and answer for it then maybe he shouldn't have done it.

[Snagmaster E]

Quote by Shytehawk on PPRuNe: "I just cannot believe my ears. An aircraft actually took off on the instructions of a child without verifying the clearance was genuime."

...With aviation frequency radios readily available to any nut/terrorist this sort of behaviour cannot be condoned. A few false calls could wreak havoc in a busy terminal area. This is apart from blocking a busy frequency with unnecessary verbiage. PPRuNers obviously understand the implications more than those on here.

I like the verifying part. How do you verify the real one? Code words? " Cleared to land, 'rosebud' Bravo bravo chicken in the henhouse'. Sometimes I though I was talking to a little girl, because the female controller had a very high voice. You'd never know it was a ... (overused word) Terrorist in the first place

People are freaking out about this waaaaaaaaaaaay too much. "Unnecessary verbiage?" Okay, then no more "hello's", "Goodbyes", "Thanks", etc. All unnecessary. Drop it all. Mindless robots to the rescue! (As an added safety feature, don't allow major hockey game scores to be broadcast)

The pilots didn't seem to care, so why should we? Dad probably had another headset on, and maybe even had the phrases written down. Who knows?

As well, any flight instructors out there? Did (or do) you allow kids to take the controls? They aren't licensed. Big deal. Who cares?

[Rockie]

Let me see if I'm understanding this correctly. You're suggesting the FAA should implement a rule allowing untrained, unlicenced guests to issue ATC clearances and instructions over the radio at the discretion of the responsible controller?

Under direct supervision of a controller why not?

Have you heard the word "liability" before? ATC frequencies are not used to play music and discuss male menopaus. They are used to issue clearances, instructions and ensure the safe flow of air traffic. In that regard it is no different than having your kid operate a crane on a contruction site around other people, or sit in the left seat of an A310 over Russia.

[yycflyguy]

or sit in the left seat of an A310 over Russia.

Come on Rockie. You must admit that is a stretch to equate a couple of clearances to allowing your kids actually control and ultimately crash an airliner with pax on board... or maybe you are discriminating against the younger, under 60, generation

[Rockie]

or sit in the left seat of an A310 over Russia.

Come on Rockie. You must admit that is a stretch to equate a couple of clearances to allowing your kids actually control and ultimately crash an airliner with pax on board... or maybe you are discriminating against the younger, under 60, generation

Do I think this kid would cause a crash? No.

What I'm talking about is liability and responsibility for enforcing the rules and regulations put in place. The FAA is required to do that. This guy knew the rules and did it anyway. Why is anybody surprised that the FAA would take action on it?

The FAA is not ever going to say it's OK for unqualified people to sit at an ATC console and directly communicate with aircraft and nor should they. That would be rather stupid don't you think?

So having been confronted with a blatant and very, VERY public case of this occurring just what do you think the FAA is going to do about it? Ignore it? From a liability standpoint that would be rather stupid and irresponsible as well.

[Troubleshot]

I don't see this as any more serious than me teaching a brand new apprentice how to change or rig a flight control....serious job? you bet, but am I going to let him do the job without supervision or guidence? hell no.

I see the argument Rockie is making but I still have no issue with this.