PA31 Bond

[Northern Rockies]

The cost of training should be covered in the tariff if an airline can't stay in business by paying their employee's a decent wage and cover all cost associated with the business then they shouldn't be in business. If a PPC is non transferable it will stop companies from poaching pilots from other companies as a way of reducing their training costs, in turn it makes a pilot that is quick to jump jobs less appealing to a potential employer based on their work history. hopefully this will reduce the temptation to as you put it be a "job jumping whore"

[Dust Devil]

The cost of training should be covered in the tariff if an airline can't stay in business by paying their employee's a decent wage and cover all cost associated with the business then they shouldn't be in business. If a PPC is non transferable it will stop companies from poaching pilots from other companies as a way of reducing their training costs, in turn it makes a pilot that is quick to jump jobs less appealing to a potential employer based on their work history. hopefully this will reduce the temptation to as you put it be a "job jumping whore"

Where is the cost of training not covered in the tariff? I think what you are suggesting is the cost of dead beats should be covered in the tariff.

[Northern Rockies]

A dead beat pilot would easily be identified by the job history on their resume, hopefully making it harder to gain employment with reputable companies this in turn would deter employees from jumping to other companies without a valid reason(Risk vs Reward). As a pilot who has only ever required a handshake agreement, never required a bond, or money up front for employment dead beat pilots piss me off just as much as dead beat companies the current system isn't working if you have any better suggestions lets hear them.

[scopiton]

what means dead beat pilot/company ?

[just curious]

Soit les pilotes qui disent... "Ouai certain je serais icitte pour un an au moins", pis decollle deux mois apres, OU des compagnies qui disent qu'il faut payer les coutes d'entrainement pis te passent un contrait pour deux fois le valeur actuel.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Soit les pilotes qui disent... "Ouai certain je serais icitte pour un an au moins", pis decollle deux mois apres, OU des compagnies qui disent qu'il faut payer les coutes d'entrainement pis te passent un contrait pour deux fois le valeur actuel.

Comme l'example ici.....

[The Old Fogducker]

Berzerker:

Valid point on the certification. My thinking is that to show competancy, a demonstration of that is required to be done....therefore my "fixation" on a flight test.

One point on flunked rides ... the main reason for an applicant to fail is incomplete training.

I noticed you're in XY ... my favourite part of my career spent up there flying for Air North. Great area and good times.

OFD

[Dust Devil]

Berzerker:

Valid point on the certification. My thinking is that to show competancy, a demonstration of that is required to be done....therefore my "fixation" on a flight test.

One point on flunked rides ... the main reason for an applicant to fail is incomplete training.

I noticed you're in XY ... my favourite part of my career spent up there flying for Air North. Great area and good times.

OFD

Do you have any idea what the general fail rate is OFD? I don't think I've ever heard of someone failing a PPC ride.

[iflyforpie]

I know someone who has. It was with a certain westerly breeze operator out of Toontown...

[Captain Kangaroo]

If I remember correctly ( I don't on occasion), PEAir only charged $2500. The gave a PCC and there was a commitment to give the PPC the following year at no charge.

Things may have changed there with the CargoJet deal.

In any event, like someone mentioned earlier, PEAir is a good starting spot if you can get on.

Cheers,

Ck

[The Old Fogducker]

Dust Devil:

Going off the top of my head, for initials with TC in 703 (generally their first PPC and didn't know what to expect) .... the national average for failures on PPCs was about 12 to 15 %
For renewals, it dropped to around 5% due to them now being experienced.

The failure rate of ACPs doing the same work was (roughly) 10% of the failure rate of a TC Inspector .... which always gave me considerable pause for thought as to why that would be the case.

For initial IFR when TC was the only one doing the testing, it was about the same rate, but there would be "fits and spurts" where the rate may go as high as 30% in an extreme, then as the quality of training improved, the rate would slip back down to around 5% for awhile, then creep back up as long-term instructors would move along to other jobs and then it took a long time before the new instructors standards increased based upon experience.

I will leave it to you to speculate as to why ACP failure rates are so low compared TC, and look forward to observing the banter, should anyone choose to accept the challenge.

The Old Fogducker

[just curious]

When a TC ride was the norm, and ACPs were almost entirely limited to what are now 704/ 705 outfits, the number of 703 level ACPs was a handful. An ACP at a little shop was almost never a DACP either. So the little plane check pilot would be limited to doing not very many rides, and thereafter on the usual suspects. Not really enough rides, especially initials to establish a database. Even now, ACPs for a 703 operator don't have to take the ACP course, just self-study. Not the most proactive approach to aviation safety.

A TC guy would go around their circuit, and do 200 rides a year. Stupid companies (lets say that there were a lot of them) would know that a candidate would have a one day window to do a ride, or their inspector would be flashing up the Kingair and not be back for a month. So, Chumley would climb out of his trusty PA31 at the end of a long and screwed up day, and discover he had to do his training and write his exam and do the ride at 7 AM. Sharply, because he had to do the Pelican Lake sked at 9.

Exam not corrected? Fail. No signature on the recommend? No ride. TC guy having a family dinner after a 2 week road trip? No re-ride or exercise repetition... fail. New TC guys with the CF ICP course would just start doing rides, without much in the way of a monitor. I can recall a guy about to fail me on the ride, because the Nav lights were not on prior to start. In the CFP100, it was a rule. On the aircraft checklist, it was in the Post-Starts. Lucky for me.

I knew of inspectors who would have had a higher failure rate due to threatening and intimidating approaches to rides. Inspectors who wanted things out of the Check Pilot sphere, like taking the stall in Kingairs to the secondary indication. KAJ was a sorry looking aircraft after that.

ACPs these days are still likely a varied lot. And I will admit to knowing squat about the 703 level ACPs. But the 704/5 level ACP guys I see these days are working hard to be balanced in their work.

JC

[DHCdriver]

I agree with a PPC for more complex aircraft as training costs are high, but for a Ho job the pay is usually crappy so the company should easily recover there costs. Am I right! Happy flying.

[DHCdriver]

I'd like to rephrase my comment . I meant a bond is accepatable for the more complex a/c as training costs are quite high.

[Ogee]

Berzerker:

Valid point on the certification. My thinking is that to show competancy, a demonstration of that is required to be done....therefore my "fixation" on a flight test.

One point on flunked rides ... the main reason for an applicant to fail is incomplete training.

I noticed you're in XY ... my favourite part of my career spent up there flying for Air North. Great area and good times.

OFD

Do you have any idea what the general fail rate is OFD? I don't think I've ever heard of someone failing a PPC ride.

Oh, yes. I know of a case where a PPC was failed for two rides in a row. Buddy got it on the third.

Maybe I've missed something in all the posts here, but isn't a PPC mandatory for captain in 703 and above. I know you only need PCC for 702 or FO in 2 pilot 703.


And

[HORUNNER]

Why a pilot would leave to do a sideways career move is questionable,

OFD

The only time I have seen it has been bc the first company wasnt a place worth staying. Alot of companies out there operating ho's feel they are the best place on earth to work and have a guy as CP that was the last man standing that had the required flight hrs not bc they had any sense of management or employee skills. Which then makes it easier for the owner to direct things thru the inexperienced CP. Dont get me wrong I bet 10% of them are worth working at