Jazz (Thomas Cook)

[ACAV8R]

Brickhead,

Where have you seen that AC was caught by surprise?

[truedude]

Yeah, let us all in on the big secret?

[ACAV8R]

Never mind Brickhead. I'm pretty sure you're just reading into the same stuff I'm seeing. Far from being confirmed at this point.
Cheers

[TopperHarley]

I get the impression that some people are trying to turn pilot group against pilot group or are trying to start flame wars here.

Jazz and AC just recently extended and renewed their CPA. Do you really think Jazz would try to screw this up by signing a contract for a measly 6-11 a/c? AC CPA flying accounts for 98% of our revenues. Why would we risk our "bread and butter" for a few a/c? And if AC really hates Jazz and is going to "switch to Porter" why would they have renewed their CPA with Jazz??

Jazz managers have made it known that they are trying to secure work outside of the CPA in order to diversify the company. Jazz is no longer owned by AC, and so is free to seek other contracts. Yes, there are provisions in the CPA which limit us to other contracts, so I'm sure that if this was in violation, then it would not have been signed. Jazz didn't pull this out of the blue as a way to "stick it" to AC. As much as some of the pilots may want to see the relationship end, the managers don't. If they did, the CPA would not have been renewed and extended. Managers on both sides are just trying to do whats best for their respective company, while maintaining the obligations of the CPA. It is just absolutely unimaginable to me that Jazz would do anything to compromise the current CPA when it accounts for so much of our flying. Since they are separate now and have a BOD and shareholders to report too, diversification is a must in order to remain profitable.

So let's not turn this into another ACPA vs ALPA or "oooh AC is going to buy porter and sign a CPA with them... bla bla bla" issue.

Today at Starbucks in T1, an AC pilot bought my captain a coffee and wished us luck with the new deal. We need more unity between the various pilot groups and less hate. I was very impressed with this act of kindness and I really hope that one day the various pilot groups can come together. Too bad I went to Starbucks 5 minutes earlier and missed out on an opportunity for a free coffee though

[teacher]

+1 "TopperHarley", well said

[Brick Head]

Guys I'm serious.

AC knew nothing.

But yes this is not a pilot versus pilot thing.

[ACAV8R]

Ok Brickhead I see you're right. My question to you is how did you know that at 7:31 PM???

Should get pretty interesting in the weeks to come.

[fivemoreminutes]

Here's my Guess. Now it's only a prediction so here goes. Jazz is going to be a management company for Thomas Cook for some time. As the birds are "G" reg Thomas Cook aircraft I think they will be crewed by thier crews(TC guys) as I can almost be certain Jazz hasn't started training or even has an agreement with the pilot group in this respect. I can't see Jazz putting their own guys on the plane for 4 or 5 months and then what, back to the RJ or dash. This would make jazz the most expensive in the industry. Now once this happens Jazz guys will scream bloody murder along with the SSV guys and all he'll will break loose. The creditors will call this whole deal suspect because of the short time from SSV demise to new agreement with Jazz And this will end up in court.

This whole deal is still up for regulatory approval and has major hurdles ahead of it. This is going to be a very expensive venture for Thomas Cook and I wonder how competitive they can be come this fall. My guess is it will be awhile before a Jazz pilot flys a TC bird. So many questions.. But who knows.. It's going to be interesting for the Jazz MEC to come up with something fair for the entire pilot group. The 57 sure ain't an RJ or Dash.

[hypoxic]

I also heard this was a surprise to AC. Is the newly negotiated CPA not available to the public? Everyone seems to be guessing whats in it. Will these 57's be on Jazz's OC? If so AC will have an issue with ACPA. ACPA's CA stipulates what size of A/C a CPA provider can have. Interesting times ahead!

[swervin]

Equipment bid for the 757 for Jazz pilots will be out in June or July. Fact.

[habs]

"ACPA's CA stipulates what size of A/C a CPA provider can have. Interesting times ahead!"

With regards to providing the work outilined in the CPA. Independent charter work is entirely different.

[hypoxic]

Not how it's worded in ACPA's CA! It refers to ANY aircraft. Nothing there stipulating inside or outside of the CPA.

"ACPA's CA stipulates what size of A/C a CPA provider can have. Interesting times ahead!"

With regards to providing the work outilined in the CPA. Independent charter work is entirely different.

[habs]

"Nothing there stipulating inside or outside of the CPA"

Maybe it should have been stipulated !! Open for interpretation perhaps.

It definitely came as a surprise to ACPA (as well as ALPA !!), but to AC? Doubt it. I've seen your MEC Memo; kind of have the feeling your Labour Relations will play the optics game with you for a while. Who knows, maybe you'll get another round of fat checks deposited into your accounts aa a result .

At any rate, for now this IS a done deal until 2012 for sure. The big hurdles were handled before this was announced. The regulatory items left to deal with are a formality.

If it is deemed there are contractual transgressions with regards to this, I'm sure the arbitrators/courts will handle it real speedy-like...

[PC12flyer]

http://www.sedar.com/GetFile.do?lang=EN ... AaRCPA.pdf

For the guy looking for a copy of the CPA, here it is. You just have to enter the weird number or letters it asks for to verify you're a human and not a computer... at least it did for me. The source is SEDAR.

[Inverted2]

ACPA has about as much say about what Jazz flies outsideof the CPA as they do for Westjet!

[habs]

"6.01(a). Jazz will require the prior consent of Air Canada, which consent will not be
unreasonably withheld or delayed, to enter into any charter contract which requires Jazz
to operate more than [Text omitted]."

Must of got the consent or this contract did not require the consent for some reason.


"Section 4.08 Air Canada Labour Agreements. Jazz shall use its best efforts to ensure the
Covered Aircraft operated by Jazz or a wholly owned subsidiary or other entity controlled by
Jazz conform to Air Canada 's collective agreement with its pilots, as amended from time to time
(the "AC Collective Agreement") particularly as to type of aircraft and number of seats, and
Jazz shall use its best efforts to ensure it does not otherwise cause Air Canada to be in violation
of the AC Collective Agreement. "

Thomas Cook is obviously not a "wholly owned subsidiary" of Jazz nor is it "controlled" by Jazz. As well, this applies to "Covered Aircraft". I didn't look anywhere else, but it seems to be clear, from this part of the CPA, that Jazz can do this without penalty or breach of contract.

[mbav8r]

"6.01(a). Jazz will require the prior consent of Air Canada, which consent will not be
unreasonably withheld or delayed, to enter into any charter contract which requires Jazz
to operate more than [Text omitted]."

Must of got the consent or this contract did not require the consent for some reason.


"Section 4.08 Air Canada Labour Agreements. Jazz shall use its best efforts to ensure the
Covered Aircraft operated by Jazz or a wholly owned subsidiary or other entity controlled by
Jazz conform to Air Canada 's collective agreement with its pilots, as amended from time to time
(the "AC Collective Agreement") particularly as to type of aircraft and number of seats, and
Jazz shall use its best efforts to ensure it does not otherwise cause Air Canada to be in violation
of the AC Collective Agreement. ".
Thomas Cook is obviously not a "wholly owned subsidiary" of Jazz nor is it "controlled" by Jazz. As well, this applies to "Covered Aircraft". I didn't look anywhere else, but it seems to be clear, from this part of the CPA, that Jazz can do this without penalty or breach of contract.

I think the bold above says it all, covered aircraft are under the CPA and I found a section that basically stated "once the aircraft hit 133,and Jazz enters into another CPA, then Air Canada has 10 days from notification to reduce the covered aircraft 1 for 1" The way I read it(not a lawyer) right now we could enter into another CPA with say Westjet and add 10 aircraft without Air Canada reducing our fleet.
Also the 757 are not "covered aircraft"

[Dark Helmet]

Brickhead,

I thought you said this was not a "Pilot to Pilot" thing.

Respectfully its starting to sound like a pilot to pilot thing to me. Unless you were getting at something different on your posts.

I don't know but for a person who claims that 'ACPA does not care what you fly as long as it is not AC work". You seem very interested in this topic. You have been hinting to us that we cannot do this type of work without consequesnces from AC despite being (as you so eloquently pointed out over the years) a separate company.

Care to elaborate...

P.S. I really don't get it. What is AC or ACPA really trying to protect here. I mean this was work to be had. If not Jazz, then WJ,SW,AT,CJ, Enerjet would have pounced on it.

[piggy]

Sweet! Congratulations Jazz, you deserve the flying.

[habs]

Good Post DH.

Yeah, when they don't want us to have the same flight passes and so on, we're 2 companies. When we get a good charter contract, fair and square, they want to dictate the rules like they owned us (common employer perhaps !?! watch it boys...) They want their cake and eat it too, which they have, and now they want to take our cake off our plates just as we're about to dig in...ACPA are the ones creating the pilot vs. pilot drama here. Just look at what some of these ACPA peeps have to say about the other former AC employee groups who are now seperate companies as well. I guess there really is no shame in the game for some.

[Brick Head]

Dark Helmet,

I could see the hornets nest this could/would create the second this was announced. Think about it. AC is not going to give its blessing for Jazz to help TC compete against its own product. So Jazz locked themselves in to a legally binding commitment with TC in silence so that when AC found out it would be too late to unwind. What Jazz management has decided to do is basically say "^%$& You" to AC.


This isn't about Jazz flying large aircraft. This is about Jazz helping an AC competitor compete against AC's own vacation product. A market that has been extremely intense for the last 2 years. We finally had some of the excess capacity being removed and now this. Jazz steps into keep the blood bath going. Get it. AC is weak at the moment. Our pensions are on the hook. We all know that right? Jazz chooses action that will harm AC? Their largest customer?

I don't view CR as the take it lying down kind of guy.

My concern, and it is genuine, is because I am sick and tired of all the fighting. The never ending willingness to keep the race for the bottom moving by all parties. This is the point I believe is the one getting under many posters skin. Sorry. But what I fear is retaliation by AC. And that reaction being taken personally by Jazz employees taking this situation between our two pilot groups to a brand new low.

This should be only a bun fight between corporations right? I would have liked to see this stay where it belongs, a fight between corner offices. But it is already becoming a personal issue for many. Maybe my remarks helped that? Don't know. Wasn't meant that way.

I mean just look at all the contempt in this post just because I see that this could get ugly, and had the nerve to put it in print.

Anyhow I will bow out of this conversation for the reasons above. I hope cool heads prevail between the two pilot groups, and we all engage brain before engaging mouth.

[habs]

Brick:

Can I lure you back in for one more comment? I know ACPA has taken this to AC Labour Relations, but has AC itself made any statements to its employees yet? And if so, does it condemn the actions of JAzz or is it non-bias in nature?

[fivemoreminutes]

Equipment bid in June or July? wow! Going to be a photo finish to get anyone online and finished line indoc before the season starts. This furthers my guess that will we see foreign guys flying the TC planes.

Plain and simple for anyone to see.. Come this season, this project is going to cut into AC vacations and water down whatever hope this industry had for some kind of rebound.

Maybe someone from a tour company will invent a new true low cost carrier for sked domestic service in response to Jazz doing this. Would that ever put pressure on AC and the CPA. This whole thing is just too wierd from too many angles.

[truedude]

fivemoreminutes, brick; your both idiots.
This flying was going to be covered by somebody somewhere; we all know that. To say this will hurt Air Canada is insane. Is it better that Jazz does it, or the next JetsGo upstart that will really work hard to undercut everyone else. Is this right? Who's to say, but it is what it is. So we can either bitch, moan, and complain, which will solve nothing, or we can just get on with it.

As for European contract guys, get real; we aren't going to the moon. A June bid is more than enough time to train guys.

[fivemoreminutes]

Thanks for the complement! good luck with the training! I guess you assume you'll be doing your own line idoc as well? Like I said before.. The 57 is no dash or Rj and as such you WILL need some heavy hitters.. But that's just me the idiot...