Jazz hour requirement?

[dream_big]

To me the most important point is that if you are hired directly out of college, then you not only miss out on all the "learning events" that result from years in the bush, but you also miss the chance to prove to yourself that you ACTUALLY want to be a pilot.

Ohhhhh you're absolutely right. I mean who wouldn't turn down jazz to prove that they are a REAL pilot. If bush flying is the real flying then why do a good junk of pilots aim for the airlines?

Take some of the pilots to whom you referred, pair them up with a recent college grad, and put them in some of the challenging situations that come up thankfully rarely

Right dude....let's compare a pilot who sat in his C172 for 1500 hours not even flying a plane, then hoping on a turbine flying that for a bit and going to jazz, compared to someone who's been flying a dash 8 for a couple thousand hours right from the start? new flash, not all pilots are true bush pilots. Half of them probably don't leave the city.
And I guarantee you, you're gonna write back about how you didn't instruct and blah blah blah. Well excatly, if you don't like hearing a lame story of how airline pilots are just instructors with lots of hours, then please don't go judging the college people. Maybe if you took the time to actually look into it you, may see that not all college kids are stuck up pricks that started at jazz with only 250 hours that enjoy their arts and craft time.

It's about a pointless as a 20,000 hour captain on a 747 saying that a 5000 hour rookie pilot shouldn't be flying a 747 because he needs to get real industry experience first (as in some parts of the world).

No offense to any instructors out there, I'm just trying to prove a point. I instruct myself....so please don't get hung up on it.

[Dark Helmet]

what kind of life style do you have on 34K a year?

To all who answered to this comment...Good job and Well said !!!

Going a little further, how about the small things that everyone takes for granted like:

-Not having to load any bags
-Not having to put on any wing covers, or engine tents
-Not having to de-ice, re-fuel the plane yourself, no Herman Nelsons
-No towing planes in and out of hangar, no cleaning and washing airplanes.
-Aside from not having to do any flight planning, plus you have a tremendous amount of resouces like Dispatch, AGRIS, ACARS etc to get weather, notams, etc.
-Not having to fly to the same indian reserves everyday.
-Where you live, fly, and overnight, milk will not cost $14 a jug and you can actually buy fresh produce.
-Once your schedule is published, it is final. Your days off are actually your DAYS OFF. So you can actually have a lifestyle

36K is your 1st year salary. It does go up every year. Year 2 your are in the mid 40s and in the 50s by year 3. Yeah I know, it is nothing to rave about but it is more or less comparable with what a turboprop Captain makes at a 703/704 ops.
Not to mention this is from a bankrupcy contract. Hopefully we will negotiate better WAWCON in our next contract.

Ohhhhh you're absolutely right. I mean who wouldn't turn down jazz to prove that they are a REAL pilot. If bush flying is the real flying then why do a good junk of pilots aim for the airlines?

For reasons I just mentioned above.

I have met a few people that would go back to flying floats or go up north in a heartbeat if they could do it while making a decent living and have a decent lifestyle. I am a college grad, I can tell you that in college you are just scratching the surface. Would I have gone to Jazz out of school if I had the chance? Absolutely, looking back I am glad I did not.

[Canoehead]

To me the most important point is that if you are hired directly out of college, then you not only miss out on all the "learning events" that result from years in the bush, but you also miss the chance to prove to yourself that you ACTUALLY want to be a pilot.

Ohhhhh you're absolutely right. I mean who wouldn't turn down jazz to prove that they are a REAL pilot. If bush flying is the real flying then why do a good junk of pilots aim for the airlines?

Take some of the pilots to whom you referred, pair them up with a recent college grad, and put them in some of the challenging situations that come up thankfully rarely

Right dude....let's compare a pilot who sat in his C172 for 1500 hours not even flying a plane, then hoping on a turbine flying that for a bit and going to jazz, compared to someone who's been flying a dash 8 for a couple thousand hours right from the start? new flash, not all pilots are true bush pilots. Half of them probably don't leave the city.
And I guarantee you, you're gonna write back about how you didn't instruct and blah blah blah. Well excatly, if you don't like hearing a lame story of how airline pilots are just instructors with lots of hours, then please don't go judging the college people. Maybe if you took the time to actually look into it you, may see that not all college kids are stuck up pricks that started at jazz with only 250 hours that enjoy their arts and craft time.

It's about a pointless as a 20,000 hour captain on a 747 saying that a 5000 hour rookie pilot shouldn't be flying a 747 because he needs to get real industry experience first (as in some parts of the world).

No offense to any instructors out there, I'm just trying to prove a point. I instruct myself....so please don't get hung up on it.

Dream Big,
Please don't take offence, but a couple of thoughts from one who's been doing this gig for a while, and readily admits that I still haven't seen it all...
Hiring direct from the colleges was not the right way to do it, especially at a time when there were plenty of better suited folks on the street who should have been hired. I went to the Soo, instructed for 3 years, then went to 'mid-north' operator doing charters/medevacs on Cheyennes and Navajos (before a few years on a 1900 and then Jazz Air). I thought I knew quite a bit when I got there... and I did- but there is no comparison between theory and practical. So I learned stuff by doing things and going into places that all the theory in the world couldn't get me ready for. I learned by being scared occasionally, and screwing up and watching others. Then I learned even more when I had my first command position on the Cheyenne. The biggest thing I learned was my limits (much like I had as an instructor, but in a different way). You really only learn those limits in situations where you are responsible, and maybe even get in over your head. The experience of seeing the end of a runway screaming down at you out the side window of your airplane on a dark and oh so dirty night is one that you cannot buy. Or the thought process involved with weather issues at minus 50 in Fort Severn when you have to overnight and you have to get that airplane out in the morning while your wife is about to have a baby 600 miles away... priceless.
These are things that a 'college-kid' will likely never know, because at Jazz (for example), you are rarely, hardly ever, put into any scenarios that put you up to your 'limit'. We are generally spoon-fed: it's a pretty easy job really.
However, there may come a dark an dirty night. Things may be adding up against you, and you might have to get creative, or even downright heroic (and you'd better be one seriously good driver if my family is on board), in order to get home to see the kids that night. You just might have to draw on some experience from the past, or at least know when to say 'nope, absolutely beyond my grasp...' etc...
Simply put, don't discount the importance of the previous flying experience people had before they got to 'the airlines'. 2000 hours in a DH8 doesn't mean anything...

This is, of course, just my opinion...

[dream_big]

sorry dude, but bashing the importance of experience was not my intent. That's not the point I was trying to portray. I couldn't agree with you more with regards to the different experience you gain before getting to the airlines! That wasn't the point I was trying trying to make. Cheers boys, I'm done on this thread!

[av8tor_assrope]

Ohhh give me a break. Flying an RJ or a Dash 8 isn't rocket science. Hell most guys out of school with 250 TT get jobs on 37's and 320's in Europe. Hell Ryanair was upgrading 37 Captains with 3000 tt and 500 on type when they were in expansion blowout mode just a few short years ago. That's barely enough to even get you an interview at WestJet. I worked Dispatch and the ramp before getting my first real gig and I'm all for the college program. The more guys don't have to work shitty entry level jobs the better!!!!

-End rant-

[Canoehead]

avi8or
Not sure who that was directed at, but if it was me, you didn't read my post.
If not, disregard...

[Localizer]

If you knew me when I first started my aviation adventure, I thought that experience was over-rated. Being young and naive, fresh license in hand .. I thought I knew everything! 3 companies, 6 type ratings later ... you never know everything ... and for the things you don't know, you have experience to back you up.

All that aside .. the northern tour is by far some of the most fun i've had .. and some of the worst times .. but having been through it .. I wouldn't trade it for anything. To me .. your missing out on events/friends that money/jobs can't buy. Memories that will make you laugh when you're alone in an empty room.

Cheers!

Loc

[KAG]

All that aside .. the northern tour is by far some of the most fun i've had .. and some of the worst times .. but having been through it .. I wouldn't trade it for anything. To me .. your missing out on events/friends that money/jobs can't buy. Memories that will make you laugh when you're alone in an empty room.

Cheers!

Loc

+1.
Yeah sure it would have been nice to land a cushy job right out of school, then again I most likely wouldn't truely appreciate what I have now. Thats just me, everyone is different. I'm glad I took the scenic route, and picked up some experience along the way.

[merlin]

To all who answered to this comment...Good job and Well said !!!

Going a little further, how about the small things that everyone takes for granted like:

-Not having to load any bags
-Not having to put on any wing covers, or engine tents
-Not having to de-ice, re-fuel the plane yourself, no Herman Nelsons
-No towing planes in and out of hangar, no cleaning and washing airplanes.
-Aside from not having to do any flight planning, plus you have a tremendous amount of resouces like Dispatch, AGRIS, ACARS etc to get weather, notams, etc.
-Not having to fly to the same indian reserves everyday.
-Where you live, fly, and overnight, milk will not cost $14 a jug and you can actually buy fresh produce.
-Once your schedule is published, it is final. Your days off are actually your DAYS OFF. So you can actually have a lifestyle

it may be a good job.... although for very low pay! but 36K a year does not provide a good life style anywhere in this country. maybe you need to have a better understand of what lifestyle is?

[Localizer]

maybe you need to have a better understand of what lifestyle is?

Lifestyle is more than money. The money gets better .. you start at 36K .. you start at AC around 38K .. whats the difference?? I don't see you offering the same advice to those applying at AC .. so why is Jazz so different?

[merlin]

You are right AC is the same.... 38K is also very low pay. I never offered advice to anyone regarding this. I simply asked what kind of lifestyle you can have on that low pay.

easy job doesnt = good lifestyle

you are also right that lifestyle doesnt mean money, but in this country I dont know how you can say your have a good lifestyle on 36K a year.

Question. why would Jazz or AC pay anymore when there is so many that are willing to defend/accept the current low pay?

[CanadianEh]

Question. why would Jazz or AC pay anymore when there is so many that are willing to defend/accept the current low pay?

...they probably won't.

[mattedfred]

CanadianEh,

I'm wondering what you plan to do differently if and when you graduate from Western and if and when you choose to pursue a career as a commercial pilot?

...and by differently, I mean choose not to defend or accept a starting wage at Jazz or AC

[flyinhigh]

You are right AC is the same.... 38K is also very low pay. I never offered advice to anyone regarding this. I simply asked what kind of lifestyle you can have on that low pay.

easy job doesnt = good lifestyle

you are also right that lifestyle doesnt mean money, but in this country I dont know how you can say your have a good lifestyle on 36K a year.

Actually unless you want to buy all the toys and party every night, quite a good one. I myself bought a house, paid off a loan. Oh and was still able find some cash laying around to travel and enjoy my so called crappy life style on shitty wages.

The key to financial freedom in our industry, DON"T GET A DIVORCE. I know its hard but really.

[CanadianEh]

CanadianEh,

I'm wondering what you plan to do differently if and when you graduate from Western and if and when you choose to pursue a career as a commercial pilot?

...and by differently, I mean choose not to defend or accept a starting wage at Jazz or AC

Mattedfred,

I'm honestly hoping the supply and demand issue will sort itself out by then, but you never know. It is a known fact and problem that companies exploit pilots in terms of compensation because they realize that pilots love their jobs so much... case and point the Jazz and AC starting salaries. One thing I will never do is work in a ground position as a means to a flying position when I start in this industry. As for the starting pay at AC and Jazz, I have lots of faith in the current pilot groups at both AC and Jazz and believe they will get what's theirs. I meant no disrespect by saying I don't think that Jazz or AC will increase the starting salary, I meant that as long as the supply of qualified pilots exceeds demand for qualified pilot, there is no incentive for them to.

[dream_big]

there is no incentive for them to.

But in this case you are wrong! The incentive is give employees a better CA or they'll be on strike soon.

[JohnnyDrama]

Well.... thanks to the people who answered my question about the Jazz hour requirements...

Does anyone else want to share some info on what hours are usually required to get into Jazz? I really don't want to keep the collage thing going but I heard from a friend of mine who just started not too long ago that he had some guys that were straight out of school in his ground school.

On average, how many hours do people usually start with?

[Bajan Pilot]

'bout 2500.

[mbav8r]

There really is no hard number, it's about the pool of applicants at the time of hiring. Your friend who was hired not that long ago, it has to be about 2 years now since we've hired any pilots. With WJ hiring, you'll probably see the pool dry up abit, but to put a number on hours it's anyone's guess. My class had an average of 5000 hrs, the next class was the college experiment. I remember when WJ was a minimum of 5000 just to apply, now I hear it's 2500 so JohnnyDrama, no one can really answer your question without simply guessing.
I don't know if the college program is still in the works, but it is specific schools with a specific program that was designed by our management and approved by TC. You won't find anyone from just any school getting hired and I don't think the program is justified while there are qualified applicants in the pool. By qualified, I mean someone with an ATPL.

[CanadianEh]

there is no incentive for them to.

But in this case you are wrong! The incentive is give employees a better CA or they'll be on strike soon.

That goes back to my point about me having faith in the current pilot group.

[JohnnyDrama]

He was hired 8-12 months ago. I can't remember the exact month but it was much less than 2 years ago. I'm pretty sure he was based in Calgary.

I know people don't have an exact number. I didn't know it varied that much. Thanks for the info.

Cheers,

JD

[Dark Helmet]

To all who answered to this comment...Good job and Well said !!!

Going a little further, how about the small things that everyone takes for granted like:

-Not having to load any bags
-Not having to put on any wing covers, or engine tents
-Not having to de-ice, re-fuel the plane yourself, no Herman Nelsons
-No towing planes in and out of hangar, no cleaning and washing airplanes.
-Aside from not having to do any flight planning, plus you have a tremendous amount of resouces like Dispatch, AGRIS, ACARS etc to get weather, notams, etc.
-Not having to fly to the same indian reserves everyday.
-Where you live, fly, and overnight, milk will not cost $14 a jug and you can actually buy fresh produce.
-Once your schedule is published, it is final. Your days off are actually your DAYS OFF. So you can actually have a lifestyle

it may be a good job.... although for very low pay! but 36K a year does not provide a good life style anywhere in this country. maybe you need to have a better understand of what lifestyle is?

Merlin

To put it into perspective. Today I am not making much less than what I made at my last job as a Captain. My lifestyle is much better now than my previous job. So I think I have got a good understanding of lifestyle The first year at 36K was tough. The pay does get better after your second and third year.

Yes the pay could be a lot better. hopefully by this summer it will.

[merlin]

I agree there is more to lifestyle then just the money, but its just stupid to come on here and say that you bought a house, paid off loans, and went traveling on 36K a year. You want us to believe that you did this in yvr, yyc, yyz, yul or yhz? What does your wife make?

I dont know where you were Captain before Dark Helmet, or what your lifestyle was. You say its better now on way less pay.... ok. Three years is a long time to wait for a better wage in my mind. From the current pay scale posted on airlinepilotcentral it would take year 12 f/o pay to just get back to what i make now flying a light turbine and working 8-10 days a month. I would have applied 3 years ago when they were hiring if the wage wasn't so poor. I too hope it gets better this summer..... I really cant see them raising it that much with all the pilots willing to accept it right now.

In my mind the guys going to Jazz are no different then the 200 hr wonders that work for almost free, buy a ppc, or pay cash upfront for a bond. They all do it for the same reason, to get ahead, make the next step, or build hrs. If we ever want to see a change for the better in this industry we all have to being willing to say no to these poor wages/working conditions. Due to human nature this will never happen though.

[scopiton]

In my mind the guys going to Jazz are no different then the 200 hr wonders that work for almost free, buy a ppc, or pay cash upfront for a bond.

short judgement and biased comparison

[dream_big]

Quote:
In my mind the guys going to Jazz are no different then the 200 hr wonders that work for almost free, buy a ppc, or pay cash upfront for a bond.

short judgement and biased comparison

+1