Here Comes the F-35

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

As I recall two engines where mandated a Canadian requirement during the last evaluations that gave us the CF-18. Did Canada get smaller, has the role of Canada's next generation fighter changed or is this another political red herring. With the hightened interest in our northern borders would two engines not still be a wise choice. Has anyone seen a document that defines or outlines the required configuration for the next generation fighter. If such a document exists was it drafted by the military or politicans.

I agree with you Maple, and let's be realistic. There are pros and obviously cons to this possible purchase. I think AuxBaton can rhyme off a few occurrences where that second engine saved the frame. Secondly, the F-35 for all intensive purposes supersedes the role of the F16 (land based). The F15 and Raptor operate within their own class of tactical fighters..air superiority blah blah. So, to jump back into some Canadian History here, in a nut shell, the CF purchased the Hornet for what reasons? A redundant (2 engines) and dynamic (multi roll) jet. With my limited experience on the matter, the F35 is not the answer to Canada’s future defense roll.

ive said this ad nauseam //we canadains sit on the biggest pile of natural resources know to civilized world.

With the usa running a 13TRILLION national debt and going up by 5 billion A DAY , the time is not to far off that we will no longer have the luxury of living under the usa defense umbrella .
ergo we need to spend alot more than 65 fighters, more like 250 f35's n f22' if we truly wish to be a free nation with the teeth to back up the rehtoric of strong n free. as we move into the later part of this century . . china holds most of the usa debt and needs resouces and the developing world need them too. So lets no fail those who fell in previous conflicts into which canadians soldiers airmen and sailors did so with outdated equipment

oldncold,
But do you feel it's important for us to pay the extra cash for a stealth aircraft if it will be used in a defensive role?

Yes Sir! I was having this conversation the other day with an old buddy. It is true, and quite frankly, inevitable, that billions upon billions of people will investigate other resources (given the exponential decline of agriculture in many developing nations). I do not believe in the Republican scare tactic; however I truly do believe Canada needs to arm itself with sophisticated equipment as we continue further into the 21st century. I would not be surprised if we see a Super Hornet and F35 order. I am sure Boeing can offer up an irresistible price (As they just did for the USN), and toss Canada a nice 80+ Super Hornets alongside a squadron of LM F35s. Finally, I cannot believe this is coming out of my mouth (cant believe it hasn’t been mentioned) , but the Indian Air Force has been having a hell of a good time with their SU-30s and gave the US forces a run for their money during Red Flag;) Hint. Will never happen but it’s nice to dream. Im sure any fighter pilot would enjoy stretching his/her legs in the rear bay of theSU-35:P Pretty cool machine.

Off topic...There is a very good read out there somewhere> it was very in depth about the Canadian Hornet purchase and other aircraft in consideration. The F15 at the time was too expensive, the F14s were extremely expensive, the F16s single engine and lack thereof range (Canada is very big), led them to making their decision on the CF18. So, apparently when the Shaw of Iran fell, the US discontinued its F14 support. Canada actually investigated the purchase of the Iranian second hand F14s for a very good price prior to the Hornet order. Pretty cool story!

[AuxBatOn]

I agree with you Maple, and let's be realistic. There are pros and obviously cons to this possible purchase. I think AuxBaton can rhyme off a few occurrences where that second engine saved the frame. Secondly, the F-35 for all intensive purposes supersedes the role of the F16 (land based). The F15 and Raptor operate within their own class of tactical fighters..air superiority blah blah. So, to jump back into some Canadian History here, in a nut shell, the CF purchased the Hornet for what reasons? A redundant (2 engines) and dynamic (multi roll) jet. With my limited experience on the matter, the F35 is not the answer to Canada’s future defense necessities.

I talked about the single engine problem to some very very experienced Hornet drivers (some of the most experienced in Canada) and they heard of 1 instance where an engine catastrophically failed. Every other time, they shut down an engine as a preventive measure (ie: high EGT reading), and said they probably could have kept it going. Not to mention that the newer engines are much more robust than the GE F404. They did convince me of the feasability of having only 1 engine. As some of those folks also pointed out, flying over the North is only 1 of the mission we do.

[shitdisturber]

[quote="winds_in_flight_
Off topic...There is a very good read out there somewhere> it was very in depth about the Canadian Hornet purchase and other aircraft in consideration. The F15 at the time was too expensive, the F14s were extremely expensive, the F16s single engine and lack thereof range (Canada is very big), led them to making their decision on the CF18. So, apparently when the Shaw of Iran fell, the US discontinued its F14 support. Canada actually investigated the purchase of the Iranian second hand F14s for a very good price prior to the Hornet order. Pretty cool story![/quote]

It's all true, the deal was almost done when word got out that Canadian Ambassador to Iran Bob Taylor had smuggled out several American embassy staff with phony Canadian passports. That killed the deal.

[Troubleshot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIsIzjVi ... re=related

[Moose47]

<<<The Mole
Post subject: Re: Here Comes the F-35
New postPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:06 pm
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:23 pm
Posts: 166
Location: Deep in da Bush
America won the cold war by spending the russians in to ground. That war ended 20yrs ago. And america is piss broke. Where spending billions on war machines to kill people with stick and stones. Whats wrong with picture.>>>

Well let's give them a good deal on arms and try to level the playing field a bit. Then kill them!

[Moose47]

>>>The Mole
Post subject: Re: Here Comes the F-35
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:13 pm
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:23 pm
Posts: 166
Location: Deep in da Bush
F 35 it looks likes an effective brown people killer. Living in there mud huts riding there donkeys......Or chasing down that c172 that violated toronto airspace..... >>>

Ahhhhhhhh playing the race card, how brilliant!

[Hedley]

As a taxpayer, it would be nice if Canada bailed on the incredibly-expensive F-35 and just ordered some Super Hornets.

I have said for years that we would get the most bang for our buck with east bloc jets with western avionics, but it's regrettable that it could never politically happen. You must admit it would make Maple Flag more interesting, though!

[rigpiggy]

it seems tome that it is more than 1 engine failure, though the site doesn't expound very well, did not the inuvik crash happen due to engine failure on takeoff?

to use a quote I heard if low/slow, if you lose an engine. salute and punchout!!

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Airc ... hornet.htm

[teacher]

I see a combination of armed UAVs in the future to compliment this small force of 65 JSFs.

[Moose47]

No matter what type of aircraft we get, the numbers are not going to be there to offer adequate protection. Our country is just too damned big to provide an effective aerial umbrella with only two fighter bases. The available numbers thin out when you deploy X number of aircraft to QRA facilities in Comox and Goose Bay along with FOL's up in the arctic. We have been relying on the Americans to cover our backs for many years as part of NORAD. The day will certainly come when that protection is not a given.

[fel]

How about a second engine for combat damage, after all it is a combat aircraft? The attached is allegedly SA-7 damage.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ge1991.jpg

[boogs82]

As a taxpayer I want the best that we can get. The F35 is just that. The Air Force Command had a lot to say in selecting the aircraft, no doubt. This wasn't just a last minute decision where some guy woke up and said "Hey let's buy the most expensive aircraft to annoy the hell out of everybody."

To whomever posted the comment about Canada doing peacekeeping..... wake up. We've been at WAR for the last 10 years now. This isn't a peacekeeping mission we're on. It's a war. Our troops are actively engaged in combat every single day they're over there. Sure they're doing some work helping to build communities and bring Afghanistan a little bit closer to the real world (as we see it), but don't think for a minute that they're not engaged in combat roles taking out enemies every day. Our Air Force isn't over there doing air attacks because, quite frankly, our equipment wouldn't hold out. The Air Force is there in a support role transporting the troops. They're doing a damn fine job over there too.

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

F 35 it looks likes an effective brown people killer. Living in there mud huts riding there donkeys......

Or chasing down that c172 that violated toronto airspace.....

You forgot to mention hijacked airliners, foreign national security threads aside from those "brown people" you so vaguely described.

Secondly, I sure as hope you’re not a resident of this country. It's people like you... who take advantage of our society and its political correctness. Hijack the very fundamentals which give you the right to state stupid crap like that above.

Take your head out of the sand. Just for that message I hope we order 500 f-22s. 100 on east / west coast, 200 in the north. 100 Stationed throughout Canada.

[into the blue]

I have said for years that we would get the most bang for our buck with east bloc jets with western avionics, but it's regrettable that it could never politically happen.

I know that will never happen. Regarding avionics, though, I don't think that they are too far behind now, especially since they now have some help from India in that department.

Su-35:

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

May i present the Su-32FN Fullback Maritime Patrol/Strike Fighter and its other variant the Su-32MF/Su-34 Fullback Strike Fighter. Both of which have a mini-galley for the pilot's to stand up and stretch and go about their business. Pretty cool jet given its capabilities against current US equipment. Not a bad price tag either. Imagine if this machine had a US flag on it? I think Canada would reconsider that F-35 order;)

[Hedley]

I just came in my pants

You can almost see my tongue sticking out in this one, as I concentrate:



If you haven't flown east bloc stuff, don't knock it until you try it!

The engineering is very impressive.

[modi13]

a small economy country like Canada that does mainly peackeeping

Canada has one of the largest economies in the world, especially when compared to the size of our population.
For all those who think that Canada is a peacekeeping nation, consider our history: Boer War, First and Second World Wars, Korea, Gulf War, and Afghanistan. Peacekeeping only lasted about thirty years, and was only really effective during the Cold War when there were two sides which didn't want an escalating situation, but required a mediator to keep both sides at bay. The reality is that we're not as isolated as we may think; how many Russian bombers roam around near our northern airspace? China and North Korea aren't that far away either (not that I think there's much of a risk from any of them - it's just as likely that the Danes will invade because of Hans Island). The F-35 is a multi-role aircraft which can just as easily drop bombs in support of soldiers in Afghanistan, or on a peacemaking mission, and then turn around and intercept a Russian Bear without showing up on RADAR. We have a lot of territory to cover and not enough aircraft to cover it all, so having something flexible, which will be able to easily adapt to future, unforseen conflicts and last another 40 to 50 years without being hopelessly outclassed by new technology is absolutely necessary.

[The Mole]

i had no idea this was AV USA. So disliking military excess expenditures is un- canadian.

The guys with box cutters won btw. Please show me an example of hijacked plane that was solved by a billion dollar fighter in north america. THey certainly were not an effective deterrent.

[. ._]

Western AME's tool box to repair a CF-18.



Eastern AME's tool box to repair every Russian plane ever built.



-istp

[Old fella]

i had no idea this was AV USA. So disliking military excess expenditures is un- canadian.

The guys with box cutters won btw. Please show me an example of hijacked plane that was solved by a billion dollar fighter in north america. THey certainly were not an effective deterrent.

An interesting prospective, even though 6 years old:

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0115-08.htm

[WileyCoyote]

I agree with the others on the fact that maybe we should start shopping around a bit, instead of taking the first thing the US offers. I efficient will that stealth be using it against the people that engineered it anyway?

[Mach1]

I know that will never happen. Regarding avionics, though, I don't think that they are too far behind now, especially since they now have some help from India in that department.

Su-35:

Ah yes, but the tech support...

[into the blue]

Yep! I guess anyone who has ever answered a telemarketing call from India can get the idea what solving tech problems with avionics might be like for the Russians!

[IFRATC]

I have a very close personal friend of mine in the forces who has a very vested interest in the F-35. Specifically posted to Washington with many thousands of hours of hornet time acting in a liasion position overseeing this project.
The government is not really interested in entertaining other proposals at this time because they have granted many contracts to countless companies who have already invested into the millions on the F-35. This even before it was officially even announced as the main contender as the hornet replacement. Canadian aerospace companies have poured so much money into this consortum that there lobby groups will pound there fists at the government until this is announced as the replacement aircraft.

IFRATC

[Old fella]

..... with the usual palms getting greased amongst the lobbyists/ has been politicians/bagmen/hangers-on/ scattered retired general or two, all compliments of us - the tax payer!!!!!!! As per usual!!