Why I lean left of centre....

[Sulako]

Let's clarify our terms so everyone is on the same boat.

Define socialist, and explain the difference between socialism and communism, and perhaps capitalism and fascism.

I worry that people are applying the label without a true understanding of the underlying philosophy.

[HS-748 2A]

FEUDALISM: You have two cows. Your lord takes some of the milk.

PURE SOCIALISM: You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else’s cows. You have to take care of all of the cows. The government gives you almost as much milk as you need.

BUREAUCRATIC SOCIALISM: You have two cows. The government takes them and put them in a barn with everyone else’s cows. They are cared for by ex-chicken farmers. You have to take care of the chickens the government took from the chicken farmers. The government gives you as much milk and eggs as the regulations say you need.

FASCISM: You have two cows. The government takes both, hires you to take care of them and sells you the milk.

PURE COMMUNISM: You have two cows. Your neighbors help you take care of them, and you all share the milk. If your neibor is lazy, you do most of the work but still are entitled to only half the milk.

RUSSIAN COMMUNISM: You have two cows. You have to take care of them, but the government takes all the milk.

CAMBODIAN COMMUNISM: You have two cows. The government takes both of them and shoots you.

DICTATORSHIP: You have two cows. The government takes both and drafts you.

PURE DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. Your neighbors decide who gets the milk.

REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. Your neighbors pick someone to tell you who gets the milk.

BUREAUCRACY: You have two cows. At first the government regulates what you can feed them and when you can milk them. Then it pays you not to milk them. Then it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the drain. Then it requires you to fill out forms accounting for the missing cows.

PURE ANARCHY: You have two cows. Either you sell the milk at a fair price or your neighbors try to take the cows and kill you.

LIBERTARIAN/ANARCHO-CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.

SURREALISM: You have two giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

ZIONISM: You have two cows. Israel steals them and shoots you. Your son comes and returns back one cow; Israel shoots him and steals the cow. Your son’s son comes and returns back one cow, Israel shoots your son’s son and steals the cow. Your son’s son’s son comes and takes back one cow; Israel shoots him and steals the cow. Your son’s son’s son’s son comes and returns a cow; Israel shoots your son’s son’s son’s son and steals the cow.

[Siddley Hawker]

Oy gevalt!

[Icebound]

...


There is a website which tries to debunk the lies on both sides:

http://www.unknownnews.org/debunk.html


I like the reason why they seem to lean left:

Of course, no honest observer can dispute that the Democrats in Congress are largely liars and hypocrites. But Democratic office-holders lie about which millionaires they're beholden to and what legislation they'll support, more often than they lie about facts.

It's something different when someone's speaking plain lies about plain, almanac-style facts — stuff you can quickly look up and debunk. And here's the plain fact about that kind of lie: In present-day America it's the right-wing, not the left, that builds its arguments on plain lies about plain facts.

That's what this page is about — how the national debate is being intentionally subverted and debased by lies about the facts of the matter, on almost every matter. Those lies come almost entirely from Republicans and conservatives.

There is no left-wing equivalent of right-wing leaders' perpetual lies about Obama's birth or radicalism, lies about "death panels", lies about historical fact, et cetera and ad nauseum. The Democratic Party doesn't have professional liars on payroll, like the Republican Party's Lee Atwater, Karl Rove, Michael Steele, and so forth. There's no left-wing equivalent of Fox News, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Michael Savage, and others acting as lie megaphones. Saying "both sides do it" is just another lie, because both sides don't do it. One side does this, on purpose as a well-planned, organized, and efficiently executed strategy. The other side doesn't.

...

[Invertago]

I lean to the left because I fly a C172 with my feet flat on the floor

[bmc]

Canada is a socialist country. Does anyone else see the humour in this discussion about how bad socialism is?

[Hedley]

Canada is a socialist country

I agree with you, bmc. The curious thing is that the lefties here don't think Canada is far enough to the left

[bmc]

Canada is a socialist country

I agree with you, bmc. The curious thing is that the lefties here don't think Canada is far enough to the left

I know.

Save the world. UI and welfare for everyone because they're victims. No long jail sentences for criminals because they come from abused homes and they're the real victims.

They start every sentence with "the government should do something about......"

"...And health care is free and should be free". The tooth ferry pays for it.

[Hedley]

The damage that Trudeau did to Canada is still ongoing.

This nonsense didn't appear until after Mike Pearson - who was a nice enough guy, loved hockey - left office.

[HS-748 2A]

The curious thing is that the lefties here don't think Canada is far enough to the left

This is so true and in dialogue with my 'pink' friends, they all swear the country, albiet the world is moving to the "right"~!

I ask them, "How the hell that could be?"
- Women's suffrage ?
- Recognition of Indian treaty rights ?
- Our modern-day "Safety" Culture ?
- Rising power of labour unions ?
- Free healthcare
- Gay rights
- The Political "Correctness" shift in everything right up to and including our very langauge
- etc, etc; I could go on and should, but why bother ..

The contrary of course is true. Our society is getting more and more socialistic by the day.

So is all of the modern world; with the exception of Muslim countries and countries with rapidly growing Muslim populations;

And there inlies another irony -

Most of us would not recognise that demographic shift as being "right-wing", though their dark-age values are indeed right-wing, maybe even to the extreme that we "moderates" (and I consider myself a redneck), don't even recognise them.

From the standpoint of extremist Islam, I expect that in addition to being an infidel, they would also view me as a total spineless-soft-in-the-middle-pinko for not wanting to hack off my daughter's clitoris with a dull, rusty knife.

Then there's the position that in saying this, I am, without a doubt, an "Islamophobe" and clearly a right-wing extremist .. Hmmm. Perplexing.

Maybe my red-neckdom ends somewhere just this side of female-circumcision, stoning women to death or pouring battery acid on little girls going to school.

In this society, I lean right-of-center, because I can ~ and because I think it preserves balance in the ever-pinker world in which we live.

The day my chain gets jerked from the other direction though, ie: being told what god I have to bow to, (Christian, Jehovah, Buddhist or Allah, I don’t give a $hit), what kind of clothes my wife can wear or whether or not my daughter can go to school;

The redneck in me believes with passion, in the freedom of choice and I may well change my mind.


'48

[Expat]

Being Socialist in the way you describe, HS, is one thing.
Most people are confusing a lot of issues here, without ever having read any serious doctrines about socialism, or communism.

I did study all that in my years at university. This is probably why people who have studied are more open, than those who played football, hockey, or simply did not attend.

I have been learning first hand about communism for a few years, from people who lived and worked in the system. A lot of then, I agree, hated it. It may have to do with the fact that they were exposed to information about the great life in the west. But most of those who lived to see the other side now miss the old days.
Having the state take care of communal needs and services, then charge a minimal fee for it was a natural way of developping the country. Getting a free appartment after serving in the military was considered normal. ...and so on... Please read about it...

The communist system took great care of putting the religion where it ought to be: in people's mind. Lived together in the USSR Christian Orthodox, Jews, and Muslims, even Catholics, and Buddhists.
Social and work integration was far superior to what we see now in the west.
Ethnic and religious tensions started after the system collapsed, with the help of the west.


Any questions???
I'll be glad to answer...
expat

[bmc]

From the standpoint of extremist Islam, I expect that in addition to being an infidel, they would also view me as a total spineless-soft-in-the-middle-pinko for not wanting to hack off my daughter's clitoris with a dull, rusty knife.

Then there's the position that in saying this, I am, without a doubt, an "Islamophobe" and clearly a right-wing extremist .. Hmmm. Perplexing.

'48

Just so we're clear, it's just extremist Islam that you have a problem with, right? Because most Muslims would be lined up right beside you in agreement.

You will also find that genital mutilation is rare in Muslim countries and is the exception and not the norm. Acceptance of non-Muslims is the norm and not the exception.

So..."from the standpoint of extremist Islam", I believe most of the planet agrees with you.

Just don't make the blind assumption that they represent the majority of Muslims. They don't.

Not all Catholics are pedophiles.

[bmc]

Social and work integration was far superior to what we see now in the west.

Good point. I believe that Canadian's tolerate immigrants, but they don't accept them.

[Expat]

Even better! No synagogs, no churches, no mosques! Pray in your heart!!!
Clothes have to be the same for all...
Commies had it!!!
We should have supported them in 78-80, when they entered Af. Not the opposite. We created Terror. We will have to live with it. This is a problem we created...
We goofed, we never got the pipelines, the oil, the support, we got nothing in return,...like in Nam...

[bmc]

Keep it white. Keep it English.

Just don't take away my favorite Chinese restaurant.

[HS-748 2A]

Just so we're clear, it's just extremist Islam that you have a problem with, right?

No BMC. I don't have any problems.

I don't think you got the gist of my post. I was just trying to convey the quandry I'm in as to which wing I'm on.

It's all to do with perspective or the eye of the beholder.

I concluded that in this society, I lean to the right.

If I were in another society, I could be seen as leaning to the left.

Hitler would have jailed me as a leftist dissenter, without a doubt.

'48

[Frank Gallagher]

Social and work integration was far superior to what we see now in the west.

Good point. I believe that Canadian's tolerate immigrants, but they don't accept them.

I've been bangin an immigrant for about 12 years. But your right I haven't really accepted her yet.

[bmc]

Social and work integration was far superior to what we see now in the west.

Good point. I believe that Canadian's tolerate immigrants, but they don't accept them.

I've been bangin an immigrant for about 12 years. But your right I haven't really accepted her yet.

Trade her in before her resale value is nil.

[. ._]

For the record, I've heard zero, count them "0" complaints about anyone I know who has married first generation immigrants. They're happy to be here. They don't feel oppressed if they make you dinner. Sweet!

-istp

[Siddley Hawker]

The Democratic Party doesn't have professional liars on payroll...

Riiiight. When you have the NY Times, the LA Times, the Washington Post and most of the MSM in your pocket, why pay for it?

[Xander]

This could synthetise our debate well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Y73sPHKxw

[HS-748 2A]

The Democratic Party doesn't have professional liars on payroll...

Riiiight. When you have the NY Times, the LA Times, the Washington Post and most of the MSM in your pocket, why pay for it?

Well put.

[bmc]

I'm right of center. But when it comes to US politics, it isn't about right and left. It's about stupid and more stupid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQycloMc ... feature=iv

Michael Steele, chairman of the Republican Party, on the war in Afghanistan, earlier this month:

"Keep in mind again, federal candidates, this was a war of Obama's choosing. This is not something the United States had actively prosecuted or wanted to engage in."

"Well, if he's such a student of history, has he not understood that you know that's the one thing you don't do, is engage in a land war in Afghanistan? All right, because everyone who has tried, over a thousand years of history, has failed. And there are reasons for that. There are other ways to engage in Afghanistan."

.....

[Slats]

A socialist's motivation would be to work hard so that the whole can improve and their for everyone can get more together.

A capitalist's motivation would be to work less but to get the same as the rest, thereby maximizing the profit vs effort.

Can you elaborate on this statement as it seems somewhat ass backwards to me. I thought socialism is the system where every one gets "the same as the rest." Seems to me to be very little motivation to work hard since by default everything would have to be based on the lowest common denominator work ethic. For the whole to improve, EVERYONE would have to work harder, and....take a look around, that ain't happening. Maybe I'm just a raging capitalist but I like to know that if I want to better my life, I can do that of my own volition.
Socialist or capitalist, left or right, I think the differences and difficulties are all about money, in particular, tax dollars and how they should be spent. Hell, I'd bet most of the issues in this country could be traced back to that if you look close enough. I don't mind my tax dollars going to support worthy social programs like schools and health care, my problem is that precious little of those tax dollars go to worthy programs and far too many are wasted supporting those who are content to leech off of the hard working class like drunken welfare bums, over-paid under-useful civil servants and grease-ball politicians.
Maybe for all us righties and lefties to live in harmony we just need a little checklist with our taxes every year that lists all the ways OUR money could be spent, and allows the taxpayer to decide where they want THEIR personal dollars allocated. It could even be organized neatly with left-ish stuff on the left and right-ish stuff on the right. The lefties could tick the boxes for their bleeding heart welfare programs and the righties could tick the boxes for new jets for the airforce. Talk about democracy in action.

[niss]

A socialist's motivation would be to work hard so that the whole can improve and their for everyone can get more together.

A capitalist's motivation would be to work less but to get the same as the rest, thereby maximizing the profit vs effort.

Can you elaborate on this statement as it seems somewhat ass backwards to me. I thought socialism is the system where every one gets "the same as the rest." Seems to me to be very little motivation to work hard since by default everything would have to be based on the lowest common denominator work ethic. For the whole to improve, EVERYONE would have to work harder, and....take a look around, that ain't happening.

That is because of a capitalist's mentality in a socialist society. You say why work harder for the same amount is the exact same as saying why not work less for the same amount.

Take a look at the kibbutz structures in Israel that worked well for more than 70 years. Everyone's motivation was the benefit of the settlement. It all changed when people decided they wanted more than what they were getting.

Both sides of the political scale definitely have their merit. The problem is ideals vs. reality. Everyone likes to look at the small business owner who started his company from nothing, worked hard to build it and gave other people jobs, and there for he is entitled to keep his earnings and enjoy life a little more than the bum who just was happy working at McDonalds.

That is an example almost anyone can get behind. The problem is corporate empires who don't think beyond the bottom line, destroy the middle class, and have the power to @#$! our economies up.

So far I would argue that we have seen more damage in the last 10 years caused by runaway capitalism then our form of socialism.