Hiring Rumors...

[DeltaHotel]

I always thought
Small is less than 12500lbs MTOW
Large is more than 12500lbs MTOW

Right ?

[Sumimasen]

I always thought
Small is less than 12500lbs MTOW
Large is more than 12500lbs MTOW

Right ?

What about EXACTLY 12,500lbs MTOW then??

[Disco Stu]

Can't be that short A320 FOs.....September DMM 74hrs.

[yycflyguy]

Hockey season and Jetz charters go full steam ahead in October for the bus.

[Takeoff OK]

Wow, now there was some major thread drift.

3. Being an EMJ FO on reserve just used to suck... now it's extra sucky. They are so desperate, they really do treat us like Crew Skeds Biatch! Seems like they are in a constant IROPS state. Can't imagine what it'll be like if we are actually in an IROPS situation.

How exactly does it suck? How many days/month are you actually working? How much credit/month?

Not being a dick here, but I'm an E175 FO for Delta Confucktion commuting from YYZ to DTW with a shitty line for 42K/year.

I need a point of reference on this one.

[flyguycanuk]

As far as wages go, we start with 2.5 years of flat pay. Then we go onto position group hourly pay rate. We operate EMJ 190/175.

Year 1.5 - $ 39,432
Year 2 - $ 44,784
Year 3 - $ 62.38/hour
Year 4 - $ 73.91/hour
Year 5 - $ 77.14/hour

What year are you?

As far as reserve. We have 12 days off a month, only 4 Guaranteed. The rest of the time you are basically on call 24/7. The reserve list is seniority based, so the #1 guy on reserve has first choice of open flying or can pass if he has junior pilots available.

Lately, with being short on pilots, crew sked is desperate and using all the "special" clauses where they can really screw with your life as normal way of doing things. On reserve depending on your seniority, you used to not have to fly a few days out of the month. Now... everyone flies everday. Most months we fly out our available hours... currently at 83, or up to a max of 88.

Life as a "citizen" or blockholder is different and comes with a lot more protections and rights.

Hope that answers your questions.

[KAG]

Is the AC reserve system as bad as it sounds? I only know the ins and outs of the Jazz reserve system, but only getting 4 GDO's and being 24 hour oncall sounds pretty harsh.

[bcflyer]

Having seen both systems in action, yes A/C reserve is that bad. We had better reserve rules at some small charter companies I worked for 15 yrs ago! To be honest I'm not sure how A/C rules are even legal.

[Disco Stu]

Is the AC reserve system as bad as it sounds? I only know the ins and outs of the Jazz reserve system, but only getting 4 GDO's and being 24 hour oncall sounds pretty harsh.

The 4 GDOs are more like 6 - there is one 48GDO period and 48hr GDO period followed by a 48 Optional period. You can move that Optional period at your discretion. The other periods are a 48 Technical and 48 Technical followed by 48 Optional which crewsked can force you to work into ONLY if there are NO OTHER pilots available to cover the flying, junior OR senior.

You are "on call" from 5am to 9pm. No obligations to answer your phone between 9pm and 5am, although crew sked my try to call. 2 hour call out, however crew sked my try to "short call" you. CS does like to screw around with the reserve rules, and ultimately it is up to the individual to know the contract and stand up for themselves.

Jazz has much better reserve rules. At AC you can be reassigned at any time, no "block holder" rights once a pairing has been assigned. We have provisions for Reserve A and B however crew sked is usually unwilling to use them.

[KAG]

might be something worth looking into during the next round of talks...

[bcflyer]

might be something worth looking into during the next round of talks...

Not likely to happen. Our negotiating team is made up of senior pilots how probably haven't been on reserve for quite some time. (unless they bid it themselves) Not a junior guy to be found. Reserve rules will be the farthest thing from their minds..

[yycflyguy]

might be something worth looking into during the next round of talks...

Not likely to happen. Our negotiating team is made up of senior pilots how probably haven't been on reserve for quite some time. (unless they bid it themselves) Not a junior guy to be found. Reserve rules will be the farthest thing from their minds..

Spot on. I sent an email to both the Chairman and President expressing my concern that our newly appointed "negots" team was an unfair representation of the membership... still awaiting a reply. If it doesn't benefit either the 777 or the YVR base it wont make it to the table.

The good news is that it probably wont even make it to negotiations as the MEC will "recommend" the first proposal across the table which will sound like 3% over 3 years with no other changes.

[JayDee]

Is the AC reserve system as bad as it sounds? I only know the ins and outs of the Jazz reserve system, but only getting 4 GDO's and being 24 hour oncall sounds pretty harsh.

The 4 GDOs are more like 6 - there is one 48GDO period and 48hr GDO period followed by a 48 Optional period. You can move that Optional period at your discretion. The other periods are a 48 Technical and 48 Technical followed by 48 Optional which crewsked can force you to work into ONLY if there are NO OTHER pilots available to cover the flying, junior OR senior.

You are "on call" from 5am to 9pm. No obligations to answer your phone between 9pm and 5am, although crew sked my try to call. 2 hour call out, however crew sked my try to "short call" you. CS does like to screw around with the reserve rules, and ultimately it is up to the individual to know the contract and stand up for themselves.

Jazz has much better reserve rules. At AC you can be reassigned at any time, no "block holder" rights once a pairing has been assigned. We have provisions for Reserve A and B however crew sked is usually unwilling to use them.

There is also no obligation to answer the phone on ANY of your days off so in reality you have 12 days off a month. 4/2/4/2 . If they work you into your optional days they are automatically tacked on to your home based crew rest where of course you do not answer the phone unless it suits you.

The simplest way around it is for $2 a month Bell will give you a separate phone number with an entirely different ring. If you answer on that ring you are in effect making yourself available to ScrewSked by default.

You are not on reserve 24/7 either as you do not have to answer the phone during "quiet" hours. If they do interrupt you, and you do make the mistake of picking it up in a groggy state of mind, you have every right to ask for another "uninterrupted" period of no less than 8 hrs" in order to be legal. At least thats the way it used to be. If ever in doubt call the scheduling administrators to confirm.

[El Comat]

As someone who may want to go to AC, I find myself thinking really hard about whether or not I could handle another disgusting pay cut, plus potentially be subject to 2nd Class status if I get hired at the end of the wave and get forced on reserve. Then there's the infighting at ACPA (blue/red, 60/65, etc.) and CCAA talks every other quarter...yikes! I've been BOTL on the DH8 here in YYZ for the last 2.5 years, and to think that it could be worse makes my stomach churn! The senior boys at AC need to smarten up and start to play as a TEAM. I really hope that the next round of bargaining brings about good changes...you guys are the biggest voice in Canada and need to set a standard.

On a less critical note, I've heard that PS (ACPA MEC Chair) likes the idea of status pay...is this true? Also, if you guys have been polled regarding contract objectives, are you aware of what the objectives are in general?

EC

[Sumimasen]

As someone who may want to go to AC, I find myself thinking really hard about whether or not I could handle another disgusting pay cut, plus potentially be subject to 2nd Class status if I get hired at the end of the wave and get forced on reserve. Then there's the infighting at ACPA (blue/red, 60/65, etc.) and CCAA talks every other quarter...yikes! I've been BOTL on the DH8 here in YYZ for the last 2.5 years, and to think that it could be worse makes my stomach churn! The senior boys at AC need to smarten up and start to play as a TEAM. I really hope that the next round of bargaining brings about good changes...you guys are the biggest voice in Canada and need to set a standard.

On a less critical note, I've heard that PS (ACPA MEC Chair) likes the idea of status pay...is this true? Also, if you guys have been polled regarding contract objectives, are you aware of what the objectives are in general?

EC

Couple of points;
All ACPA members need to play as a team - not just the senior pilots.
As the biggest voice, I agree, we DO need to set a standard.
The blue/red issue is essentially over.
Just because PS favours status pay doesn't mean the membership does.
s

[yycflyguy]

As someone who may want to go to AC, I find myself thinking really hard about whether or not I could handle another disgusting pay cut, plus potentially be subject to 2nd Class status if I get hired at the end of the wave and get forced on reserve. Then there's the infighting at ACPA (blue/red, 60/65, etc.) and CCAA talks every other quarter...yikes! I've been BOTL on the DH8 here in YYZ for the last 2.5 years, and to think that it could be worse makes my stomach churn! The senior boys at AC need to smarten up and start to play as a TEAM. I really hope that the next round of bargaining brings about good changes...you guys are the biggest voice in Canada and need to set a standard.

On a less critical note, I've heard that PS (ACPA MEC Chair) likes the idea of status pay...is this true? Also, if you guys have been polled regarding contract objectives, are you aware of what the objectives are in general?

EC

Couple of points;
All ACPA members need to play as a team - not just the senior pilots.
As the biggest voice, I agree, we DO need to set a standard.
The blue/red issue is essentially over.
Just because PS favours status pay doesn't mean the membership does.
s

Where has he ever recommended status pay? Formula pay is the best way to maximize career earnings and this was presented at a GC meeting this past spring. Everything I have heard/read from the union supports formula although EMB formula needs to be re-addressed.

[El Comat]

I'm good friends with PS's brother, and heard it through some of our friends that he likes the idea of status pay. But that was a while ago, so maybe things have changed.

Either way, I wish you guys the best of luck in the coming year, let's start the upward wave for our 'profession' or 'skilled trade' or whatever the latest buzz classification is. I urge all your junior folk to attend as many meetings as possible and make your voice known.

EC

[bcflyer]

Formula pay is the best way to maximize career earnings and this was presented at a GC meeting this past spring. Everything I have heard/read from the union supports formula although EMB formula needs to be re-addressed.

Formula pay is great if EVERYONE was on it. As it stands now how many aircraft are actually on true formula pay? 777? 767? The 330 is on 340 formula (essentially getting paid more than they should be, which is not neccesarily a bad thing, but not exactly fair when some guys are barely getting by...) The 320 guys are at formula -5% and the Embrarer guys are essentially on status pay.
Want to pull people together? Treat everyone the same...

[TyrellCorp]

The senior boys at AC need to smarten up and start to play as a TEAM.
EC

And why would they want to do that? Oh yeah, because if your ladder is weak at the bottom it's not going to hold you at the top for long. Also just like building on a weak foundation, the whole building might come crumbling down at the slightest tremor.

[disco]

With no disrespect to anyone, it really doesn't matter what our ACPA President feels about status pay. Associations don't operate from the top down. He won't be deciding policy like that for the group. The Negotes committee has to go after it on a mandate from the Pilot group.

Association Presidents don't function as policy makers.

[yycflyguy]

Formula pay is the best way to maximize career earnings and this was presented at a GC meeting this past spring. Everything I have heard/read from the union supports formula although EMB formula needs to be re-addressed.

Formula pay is great if EVERYONE was on it. As it stands now how many aircraft are actually on true formula pay? 777? 767? The 330 is on 340 formula (essentially getting paid more than they should be, which is not neccesarily a bad thing, but not exactly fair when some guys are barely getting by...) The 320 guys are at formula -5% and the Embrarer guys are essentially on status pay.
Want to pull people together? Treat everyone the same...

Amen brother. The first thing to get everyone on the same team and unify a splintered group would be true formula for all, not status pay like what is being suggested.

With no disrespect to anyone, it really doesn't matter what our ACPA President feels about status pay. Associations don't operate from the top down. He won't be deciding policy like that for the group. The Negotes committee has to go after it on a mandate from the Pilot group.

Association Presidents don't function as policy makers.

Unfortunately, our last time up to bat our negots team that had spent countless hours preparing a battle plan got the rug pulled out from them by the MEC and their subsequent NDA with the company. We didn't even get to the negotiating part!!

[Takeoff OK]

As far as wages go, we start with 2.5 years of flat pay. Then we go onto position group hourly pay rate. We operate EMJ 190/175.

Year 1.5 - $ 39,432
Year 2 - $ 44,784
Year 3 - $ 62.38/hour
Year 4 - $ 73.91/hour
Year 5 - $ 77.14/hour

What year are you?

As far as reserve. We have 12 days off a month, only 4 Guaranteed. The rest of the time you are basically on call 24/7. The reserve list is seniority based, so the #1 guy on reserve has first choice of open flying or can pass if he has junior pilots available.

Lately, with being short on pilots, crew sked is desperate and using all the "special" clauses where they can really screw with your life as normal way of doing things. On reserve depending on your seniority, you used to not have to fly a few days out of the month. Now... everyone flies everday. Most months we fly out our available hours... currently at 83, or up to a max of 88.

Life as a "citizen" or blockholder is different and comes with a lot more protections and rights.

Hope that answers your questions.

Thanks for the coherent reply. I appreciate it. Based on a couple of subsequent replies it seems to me that reserve at AC is only as bad as you let it be. As usual, a strong backbone and thorough understanding of the contract can go a long way in minimizing company abuse... One thing that appears to be lacking in your contract is long-call (12-hr callout) reserve, which most other majors in the world have. Perhaps that is what somebody was referring to by A and B reserve(?).

I'm currently on second-year pay after having been furloughed from another 175 operator in 2008; that 42K I referred to includes perdiems. In September I'll go up a whopping $2.50/hr. If I upgrade soon, 3rd year CA pay will be $67/hr. Pretty nice, eh?

My point is that I would kill to be based in YYZ on reserve for AC on any equipment. Beats the hell out of commuting, trust me. Hopefully I'll get a shot soon...

As to the merits of Status (seniority) pay vs. Formula pay:

I completely disagree that formula pay is the best way to realize quality of life. If you had status pay, a couple of very significant things would happen:

1) People would stop chasing heavy metal just to satisfy their banks and egos, and instead could pursue schedule styles to fit their needs. This would generally get many of the younger guys/gals the heavier equipment sooner for their shiny jet syndrome, while permitting senior and (most importantly) mid-level folks the schedules they've earned. Long haul kills; it's a fact. Just ask Fedex.
2) Training costs could be greatly reduced in the absence of the many cross training events that currently occur with every system bid, which could be a HUGE bargaining tool come renegotiation time.

My outsider's 0.02, again.

[UKPilot]

Just ask Fedex.
\

I know it's digressing slightly but I'd like you to expand on that a bit if you get the chance.

Could someone define the difference between Status pay and Formula pay? It seems that the North American carriers operate very differently to what I've experienced over here in the UK. Is Status pay, the longer you're with the company the more per diem you get per hour whereas Formula is based on the metal you fly?

[short bus]

nothing to do with perdiems. formula is a payscale for a specific airplane. status is pay based on years of service, nothing to do with type.

[Takeoff OK]

Just ask Fedex.
\

I know it's digressing slightly but I'd like you to expand on that a bit if you get the chance.

That was said with a bit of tongue in cheek, but I was referring to the fact that while Fedex has a fantastic retirement package, very few get to enjoy it because most of their retirees seem to kick the bucket right around 70.