Restrict Flight Training to Gov, funded programs?

[Hedley]

I've seen some really dumb threads over the years here on AvCan, and this makes at least the top ten.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I have met a lot of good guys and gals from the colleges. Folks who understand they have the book smarts, know they are missing the expereince piece, but leverage the knowledge they have with a lot of hard work to help them pick up all the other skills a good commercial pilot needs. Unfortunately there is still a small subset of guys (and yes it always seems to be young men) who think the fact that they went through a college program makes them "superior" to us mere mortals, like me, who did our flying training the traditional way. Personally when I am unfortunate enough to meet one of these skygods, I ignore them on the ground and ride them like a cheap rental in the air

[bushhopper]

I thank you all for your opinions. Keep them coming.

[beast]

The fact remains: Entrance to the profession must be restricted in some manner

To those who feel that more intense educational/training requirements are not an answer, what do you propose?

The professions of law, medicine, engineering and others have restricted their membership, in some cases, for hundreds of years. They do so to preserve the standards and status of their profession, as well as the pay and working conditions of their professionals.

And yes, it can be unfair. In fact, it is by definition, unfair. Not everyone gets to be an engineer. Not everyone can be a cardiologist. But that is precisely what makes being a cardiologist or lawyer something worth being!

These professions generally don't directly set standards or run the schools that train for them - instead, after graduating, candidates must meet the defined standard to qualify for professional status, and inclusion into the group (ex. the Bar)

So its time this profession began something similar

A lot of the people on this thread are unhappy with restricting entrance, but fail to present alternatives to preserve the standards, status, pay, and working conditions of the profession. Lets hear some!

[bushhopper]

The fact remains: Entrance to the profession must be restricted in some manner

To those who feel that more intense educational/training requirements are not an answer, what do you propose?

The professions of law, medicine, engineering and others have restricted their membership, in some cases, for hundreds of years. They do so to preserve the standards and status of their profession, as well as the pay and working conditions of their professionals.

And yes, it can be unfair. In fact, it is by definition, unfair. Not everyone gets to be an engineer. Not everyone can be a cardiologist. But that is precisely what makes being a cardiologist or lawyer something worth being!

These professions generally don't directly set standards or run the schools that train for them - instead, after graduating, candidates must meet the defined standard to qualify for professional status, and inclusion into the group (ex. the Bar)

So its time this profession began something similar

A lot of the people on this thread are unhappy with restricting entrance, but fail to present alternatives to preserve the standards, status, pay, and working conditions of the profession. Lets hear some!

++1

[slam525i]

A lot of the people on this thread are unhappy with restricting entrance, but fail to present alternatives to preserve the standards, status, pay, and working conditions of the profession. Lets hear some!

The whys of pay and working conditions of the profession are obvious. You want to get paid more. No brainer.

Standards. Standards are set by Transport Canada and the hiring agency. If you truly do not believe the standards as set out by Transport Canada are sufficient for the safe operation of the aircraft, I would suggest you write directly to Transport Canada and raise your concerns. If you believe an airline is hiring pilots that are not up-to-standards, I would suggest you write to that airline or to Transport Canada and raise your concerns. Raising licensing standards to reduce the pilot population to improve job opportunities would be like denying qualified drivers from car licenses to reduce congestion.

Status. I don't even know what to say to this. My ego is big, but not quite that big yet.

Look, we already HAVE a system of restricting entrance: there aren't that many jobs! The lack of jobs is restricting entrance. If you restrict entrance at the level of licensing or entry into "College of Pilots", you've simply placed the bottle neck further down. Nothing changes. Instead of qualified, jobless pilots, you'll have wanna-be pilots. Instead of people complaining on here about the lack of jobs, we'll have people complaining on here about how they're perfectly qualified but won't be admitted into the profession.

As a tongue-in-cheek look at the idea, imagine a "college of brick layers" or "college of plumbers" or "college of bus drivers".

[Airtids]

To those who feel that more intense educational/training requirements are not an answer, what do you propose?

Nobody said they didn't want to see better training/higher standards. They have said they don't want to see artificial limits placed on entrance.

A lot of the people on this thread are unhappy with restricting entrance, but fail to present alternatives to preserve the standards, status, pay, and working conditions of the profession. Lets hear some!

I propose that it IS already working- the industry weeds out the weak/inept before they get too far, and the bottom end is where this happens. Always has, always will. You are seeing the effects of free-market capitalism in action, and that is the cornerstone of our entire economic system. You think things are tough now, imagine what they would be if this profession actually was as great as we all wish it (still) were. I propose there are a HELL of a lot of folks who would love to do what I do to earn a fantastic living, but either educated themselves on the realities first and walked away before they got started, or became disenchanted and bailed. Bushhopper's whining is step one. Those who can persevere will prosper.

it's outrageous that there is still taxpayers money being used to fund these programs.

Remember, Bushhopper: your tax dollars are being used to make your life more difficult courtesy of your beloved GOV'T SUBSIDIZED PROGRAM!! Do you see the irony in your solution? I would almost feel sorry for you if you hadn't come on here with such an elitist attitude, insulting everyone who ever trained at, taught at, acted as CFI of, or owned a small mom-n-pop school (of which I've done all, as well as working at a funded College program!). Gov't subsidization is a bastardization of the free-market economy.

I used to tell prospective students that their chance of making it to the left seat of a major were about the same as making it to the NHL. NOT ONE OF THEM WALKED! Some of them bailed, and some of them are in the big show.

I read a report last month from the head of UND that basically indicated they are seeing a massive drop in applications because people are starting to see the industry for what it really is. Thank Colgan...

There's just soo much wrong with this thread...

Thanks, Hedley. Editted to add: Training of Foreign Nationals is one of the best things we can be doing in Canada. We have a fantastic training industry, environment and opportunity in this country. To not take advantage of that and market it to the world would be assinine!

[Hedley]

Standards are set by Transport Canada

I know that nobody here ever leaves Canada - or thinks about what might happen elsewhere in the world - but requirements for PPL/CPL/ATPL come from ICAO.

PPL/CPL/ATPL are internationally-recognized pilot licences. Canada does NOT dictate to all the other countries in the world, what the requirements for PPL/CPL/ATPL are going to be

[bushhopper]

Standards are set by Transport Canada

I know that nobody here ever leaves Canada - or thinks about what might happen elsewhere in the world - but requirements for PPL/CPL/ATPL come from ICAO.

PPL/CPL/ATPL are internationally-recognized pilot licences. Canada does NOT dictate to all the other countries in the world, what the requirements for PPL/CPL/ATPL are going to be

We both know a UK CPL requires almost 400 hours of ground school. ICAO failed to standardize? I agree, all are equal at the ATPL level. Well I do not agree with the Chinese ATPL, or the Hong Kong ATPL.

I am not wimping guys. I am not trying to avoid the topic. I am trying to communicate with my fellow pilots. I just want the supply and demand to be regulated to a healthy level. Not over saturated, not under saturated. Just like the medical, and lawyer professions.

I would like to see our profession receive some respect from the industry, public and fellow pilots.

Could someone please provide UND report?

I will say it again. All my comments have no intent in offending anyone. I just presented a point of view, I my self disagree with not to long ago. I strongly feel about regulating the supply and demand to a healthy level. Healthy level would benefit everyone, customer, operator, pilots.

[Hedley]

I just want the supply and demand to be regulated

You remind me of the guys who used to work at the auto plants in Canada.

[bushhopper]

I just want the supply and demand to be regulated

You remind me of the guys who used to work at the auto plants in Canada.

Hedley. Please comment on how the medical and lawyer profession regulated the supply and demand. Everything seems to work just fine.

[Hedley]

How about we raise the minimum wage in Canada to $100?

That would be GREAT for everyone!

[Shiny Side Up]

Please comment on how the medical and lawyer profession regulated the supply and demand. Everything seems to work just fine.

I can't speak for the world of lawyers, but I do know there's a lot of people very unhappy with the current system of the medical profession. Doctors and Nurses and other qualified healthcare specialists are in short supply. This might be amicable to those in that profession (in that they have a lot of leverage in demand for working conditions and pay), but it really hurts their customer base, socialized system or not. They do provide a considerably more "essential" service than pilots do.

The fact remains: Entrance to the profession must be restricted in some manner

I'm very curious as to how one might go about this, I believe someone already suggested that TC might govern how many pilots are to be trained (where's Cat Driver to comment when you need him) Lord knows nothing could be corrupted with that system. I always find it funny as well that pilots who are already in the system want to keep others out. Maybe there should be a means where by we can weed out some of the bad apples already in the system... Maybe like some sort of Big Brother reporting system. I'm going to go all out and say that there would be some who would favor a Planning bureau in the government which maybe is centralized to govern the economics of pilots entering the system....

I jest... surely we're not talking about going that far are we? I'm suprised I had to beat Hedley to the macarthyist red scare tactic, though I'm not sure people out there are afraid of that anymore.


I could see it now - every pilot a card carrying PC or Liberal party member.

[SuperchargedRS]

Those fools who call us bus drivers...

Maybe you have been called a bus driver, I have never had anyone call me that.

Infact a good percentage of the people I spend time with are accomplished people and I end up being the center of conversation when people ask about where I was flying or how does xxx work etc.

Maybe people are calling you a bus driver not to belittle your profession, but to belittle you??

Another reason for so many accidents. If you have time to look out the window, you are doing something wrong.

Huh, I though accidents happen when you DONT look out the window.





I dont care what the others think of my profession, if they think it is elite enough or flashy enough, as long as I get paid enough to live my life how I like to and I am flying something that makes me smile I have NO COMPLAINTS!

[iflyforpie]

You know, this whole thread stinks like somebody who has a sense of entitlement and can't fathom either a) the fact that he makes so little or b) the fact that people who are 'uneducated' are doing better than he is.

I am wondering what his attitude would be if a) he didn't meet new standards (law of unintended consequences--you cannot just taylor something to your own experience) or b) he got that high paying shiny jet job (or whatever he wants) and no longer cares about the plight of starving pilots...




Not all of us low timers work for peanuts (my most abysmal T4 was 37,000--and I left shortly after) and I challenge myself to higher standards every day. Most of this stuff you learn on the job, from the reactions of your passengers and tips from your superiors.


It sure is entertaining though to watch the MRC and Selkirk students have to do go-arounds on our 3000 foot runway in a 172 because it isn't long enough. Higher standards for sure...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4kqs-BvDnw#t=0m25s

[Hedley]

I think the peasants are revolting.

[iflyforpie]

I think the peasants are revolting.

One day you bourgeoisie will be subject to our proletarian revolution!!

Whoa, time to switch tanks. Left is acting up....

[Shiny Side Up]

Thanks, Hedley. Editted to add: Training of Foreign Nationals is one of the best things we can be doing in Canada. We have a fantastic training industry, environment and opportunity in this country. To not take advantage of that and market it to the world would be assinine!

There of course is another delicious bit of irony there in the idea that the two biggest sources of foreign students - India and China - currently have national training set ups as exclusive as our bushopper here would like ours to be. Systems which can't satisfy the demand those countries now need (indeed the caste system is alive and well in India determining who gets to take advantage of flight training established there, In China, lets just say that "pilot" happens to be the job many sons of influental communist party members "some how" end up in...) One might wonder that if such an exclusive flight training set up were established in this country where we'd be sending our children and grandchildren to become pilots.

[bushhopper]

Instead of trying to make our industry worse, we should work together on a way to regulate the supply and demand.

figure out the maximum projected demand for new CPL pilots for each year, add 10%. That would insure the supply is slightly positive, allowing employers to choose from a large pool of potential employee's.

[modi13]

To those who lack basic economics knowledge, due to the obvious reasons. Canadian government heavily regulates the banking system. Just take a look at what happened in the states with housing market? Free markets at best! Free markets allow greedy to get rich, and honest to become poor. Are you guys blind to see what happened in the states? NO banking regulations.

There's a big difference between regulating the industry and regulating the number of pilots entering it. The aviation industry in Canada was regulated until 1987, which hardly had any effect on the number of pilots who were being hired.

Also, some of you cant read. In total 3 separate posts members of this forum openly compared us to bus drivers. Called it easy, and some even compared it to a plumber!

You were the first one to do so.

Instead of trying to make our industry worse, we should work together on a way to regulate the supply and demand.

What about those who never intend to fly for a profession? Should we regulate those who own their own plane and just want some extra training or a lower insurance rate? Restricting the number of CPLs would affect them too. And how do we guarantee that the best people are being given the opportunity to get a licence in the first place? We could be weeding out the best applicants before they even begin their training. Or should we let them get up to licencing, spending tens of thousands of dollars, but refuse them a CPL because there aren't enough jobs available?

Some of you are already in the industry flying a nice aircraft, with a good wage. What about young pilots like me, who barely have 400 hours? Don't you think I have bills to pay?

It's up to you to demonstrate that you're the best candidate for the job, just like in any industry. If your problem is that you can't find a job, and you think it's because there are too many low-timers, then aren't you competing on an even playing field? You don't deserve to have a job. Not every doctor or lawyer is guaranteed a job just because they passed the bar or med school.

I have to compete with some incompetent pilots who are just willing to work for free.

How do we know that you're one of the competent pilots? Just because you went to a college? You passed the same tests as those incompetents and haven't gained the experience to demonstrate yet that you're any more competent than they are. If you had, you would probably have a job. You really can't blame the large number of low-timers for preventing you from finding meaningful employment when you're competing on the same level as them. In fact, I see this entire topic as being very elitist: there are too many pilots, but I went to college, so I deserve the jobs that they're getting through work ethic and personality.

[bushhopper]

You are wrong! I am not elitist. How can I compete with stupid pilots who are willing to work for free. I am not going to work for free, that's called slavery. How about I go to your employer and tell him I will do your job for free for the next 5 years?

Also there is a big misconception about shortage of medical professionals. Also to obvious reason most of you would not know why. Let me fill you in. My mother is a registered nurse. She works full time at the hospital. When you go to the hospital, yes most will tell you there is a shortage of doctors and nurses. But wrong again! There are tones of registered nurses and licensed doctors who are willing to work. The issue is with the liberal government wasting our money in Iraq and Afghanistan and other social programs like the gun registry. Our health care system does not provide enough funds for the hospital to hire more doctors and nurses! There is a huge shortage of full time nurses and doctor positions at the hospital! College of pilots would never create a shortage of professionals.

I am conservative, not liberal, I am not elitist. I am hard working guy who is trying to pay his bills. I became a pilot because I love to fly. Also my family considered a pilot to be a respected profession. I guess I was wrong, since most of you cant respect your on living. Go figure? stupidity at best. I support college of pilots, we need someone to regulate pilot demand. Even if so, not government funded schools, at least demand structured programs. Pilots who choose to go the easy way choose it for the obvious reasons. Don't throw sand in my eyes. Structured program requires a lot more work. Quality control would be much better.

Some of you pilots are just pissing into the wind. Taking a shit in your own bed.

[iflyforpie]

Pilots who choose to go the easy way choose it for the obvious reasons.

Oh really? What obvious reasons are those?

I was working full-time to pay for flight training and support a family. College wasn't an option. I wanted to be done my CPL with a Multi IFR within a year, again no college would ever do that.

So guess what? I went to a mom and pop school, structured my own syllabus (you can do that?) and got a CPL with 200TT and a Group 1 IFR, float rating, mountain training, and tailwheel time. I got to go off strip, do aerobatics, and was taught all kinds of tricks by a couple of ex-military instructors.


The college down the road where I got my PPL wouldn't even let their precious airplanes (tricycle gear--all) on dirt strips--yet they have lost at least four of them in the last ten years to accidents. Mom and pop didn't lose any.

Don't throw sand in my eyes. Structured program requires a lot more work. Quality control would be much better.

You are so convinced of that, aren't you? It's just SOPs. Do this, then this, then this. If you fit the mold and say the right things, you must be good.

I will tell you right now, that paper, logbooks, hours, and resumes do not get you a job. Personality, attitude, and work ethic (starting up with showing up ready to work, even though you don't have the job yet) gets you the job. I've seen tons of people who looked good on paper get rejected for one of these reasons.

Just remember...


Education means you knew it once. Knowledge means you know it now. Wisdom means you know when to use it.


Work on wisdom my friend....

[SuperchargedRS]

Pilots who choose to go the easy way choose it for the obvious reasons.

Oh really? What obvious reasons are those?

I was working full-time to pay for flight training and support a family. College wasn't an option. I wanted to be done my CPL with a Multi IFR within a year, again no college would ever do that.

So guess what? I went to a mom and pop school, structured my own syllabus (you can do that?) and got a CPL with 200TT and a Group 1 IFR, float rating, mountain training, and tailwheel time. I got to go off strip, do aerobatics, and was taught all kinds of tricks by a couple of ex-military instructors.


The college down the road where I got my PPL wouldn't even let their precious airplanes (tricycle gear--all) on dirt strips--yet they have lost at least four of them in the last ten years to accidents. Mom and pop didn't lose any.

Don't throw sand in my eyes. Structured program requires a lot more work. Quality control would be much better.

You are so convinced of that, aren't you? It's just SOPs. Do this, then this, then this. If you fit the mold and say the right things, you must be good.

I will tell you right now, that paper, logbooks, hours, and resumes do not get you a job. Personality, attitude, and work ethic (starting up with showing up ready to work, even though you don't have the job yet) gets you the job. I've seen tons of people who looked good on paper get rejected for one of these reasons.

Just remember...


Education means you knew it once. Knowledge means you know it now. Wisdom means you know when to use it.


Work on wisdom my friend....

And that concludes the lesson for today!

[modi13]

You didn't actually address any of my points. I'd like a practical solution to having a glut of pilots, not merely restricting the number of CPLs produced. How, exactly, would that guarantee the best pilots for the jobs available? Would having a degree guarantee that there wouldn't be people willing to work for free? On the contrary, I'd say those who go to university on daddy's money are more likely to keep living on daddy's money while they donate their time to a skeezy company.

Also there is a big misconception about shortage of medical professionals. Also to obvious reason most of you would not know why. Let me fill you in. My mother is a registered nurse. She works full time at the hospital. When you go to the hospital, yes most will tell you there is a shortage of doctors and nurses. But wrong again! There are tones of registered nurses and licensed doctors who are willing to work.

And yet our heavily regulated medical industry can't employ all of the qualified medical professionals. This is precisely what I said. Some people just aren't pleasant to work with; doctors and nurses, just like pilots, get jobs because of who they are, not because they're the only ones with the right qualifications. Even with a shortage of doctors, no one is going to hire some idiot just because they need to fill a slot on the roster.

The issue is with the liberal government wasting our money in Iraq and Afghanistan and other social programs like the gun registry. Our health care system does not provide enough funds for the hospital to hire more doctors and nurses! There is a huge shortage of full time nurses and doctor positions at the hospital! College of pilots would never create a shortage of professionals.

Prove it. First, you're directly contradicting yourself. Second, there isn't a shortage of doctors and nurses because there are quotas set on them, it's because there are so many health care positions across the country and only so many people willing to spend the time and money to get their degrees. There are fewer commercial pilots in Canada than there are lawyers in souther Ontario; the problem isn't that there are too many pilots, it's that there aren't enough jobs to go around for everyone who loves flying and wants to get paid to do it. Also, we have no soldiers in Iraq, and the Conservative government has been in power for several years without dramatically affecting doctor shortages. Indeed, the Conservatives are exceptionally in favour of deregulation and privatization.
Here's a simple fact: you have done nothing to earn a job. Even if every compnay in Canada were desperately short of pilots, they wouldn't have to give you a job just to have the seat filled, even if it meant cancelling flights. Airlines will only hire employees they believe will get their aircraft home safe at night, regardless of how many pilots there are available. If they have 15 resumes or 1500, they will only hire the one or two who fit their company well. You have done nothing to differentiate yourself from your peers; you have done precisely the same training as them, plus a few more courses in accounting and management. You are not a better pilot for your education. Indeed, many colleges contract out their flight training to local schools, which means that you are doing exactly the same training as one of their normal students. If you were to suggest that the "College of Pilots" have the ability to cancel the credentials of any pilot found working for free, or any airline requiring them to do so, I would wholeheartedly agree with you; you've hit the problem directly on the head there: pilots are always willing to work for less just to get a few more hours and move on. I don't see how limiting the number of licences would affect that in any way. If you have 100 new CPLs every year instead of 1000, 10% of those people will still be willing to work for free to get a leg up on their peers, and they're the ones who will gets the jobs because of it.

[North Shore]

I am conservative, not liberal, I am not elitist.

A funny type of conservative who argues for government intervention in the marketplace And an even funnier non-elitist who thinks that everyone should go to a college/university.

The current system, warts and all, works. At the top, people make a pretty decent living, at the bottom, less so, but you are in an apprenticeship role.. along the way, less motivated, or skilled people are winnowed out.. what's the problem?

One of my first jobs saw me living in a fly-in reserve in Ontario. In a number of senses, I was hopeless there - I couldn't speak the language, didn't really know the surrounding area, and wanted to get the hell out ASAP back to my g/f, family and friends in the city. The local kids, on the other hand, knew where 'Uncle Joe's' hunting cabin was, didn't have to find a translator to be told to go there and pick up his canoe, and had their social support network in place. I often found myself thinking that the community would be a lot better off with a local doing my job. Over the course of the summer, I met a few people who were trying to get their licences. However, they didn't have a school that went past grade 10 - they had to leave everything they knew to go south to T Bay for grades 11 and 12. Needless to say, few did. Your proposed system is going to shut people like that completely out of the running for those kind of jobs....