Dhc6to8 wrote:Aires definitely got the Korean ex JeJu machines .... I know, because I ferried one over to Colombia. ...
6to8

WOW, a dash 8 from Korea to Colombia! How long did it take you?

Phileas Fogg wrote:This industry is getting better by the day (knock on wood)

How do you figure the industry is getting better by the day? .. Another company in the mix to drive down the highest paid Dash-8 drivers out there? That is your idea of the industry getting better by the day? How about Jazz operates them, you can apply there, and know you'll be paid well for your services?

Chopsticks wrote:What exactly have you added to this discussion Mclovin? What avionicsdude said is what is going around at Air Canada, whether true or not. There is a sentiment that AC is getting back at Jazz for the Thomas Cook flying, but none of us will ever know.

I'd like to think AC management cares little about any contracts a supplier makes, as long as the services being supplied don't suffer. CR and the rest of the management team have larger issues to worry about then contracts Jazz secures. As for AC pilots flying Q-400's .. hard to believe, but stranger things have happened. My opinion? .. I don't see AC pilots flying Q's .. I see either Sky Regional or Jazz operating them depending on what happens with ACPA. They hold the final say on who operates the island. (ie Jazz being the only tier 2 in their contract)

Time will tell ..

chopsticks wrote:

Mclovin wrote:

avionicsdude wrote:I was told as well that the Q's came from Asia, not sure which airline tho!! AC did not give the contract to jazz because there has been a lot of bad blood between the two (AC and Jazz) after Jazz took on the Thomas Cook 57's....because Thomas Cook undercuts/ and is a competitor of AC and you should never bite the hand that feeds you Anybody knows if or when they are hiring for Maintenance?

Spoken like someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

What exactly have you added to this discussion Mclovin? What avionicsdude said is what is going around at Air Canada, whether true or not. There is a sentiment that AC is getting back at Jazz for the Thomas Cook flying, but none of us will ever know.

I did hear some maintenance guys are already being sent on course for the Q.

OK I will now expand. Avionicsdude said that he was told that AC did not give the YTZ flying to Jazz because of bad blood between Jazz and AC regarding the Thomas Cook flying. That is just wrong. AC management did not say hey lets get back at Jazz and hire Skyservice to do the YTZ flying. Also I would think that AC would have gone and done this anyway even if Jazz did not get the Thomas Cook flying, the fact that it was awarded to Skyservice or sky regional whatever is because they were the lowest bidder. The contract was put to tender and a number of companies bid on it. I could be wrong but I think AC might have had a wake up call when Jazz pilots voted to strike back in June, and realized that maybe putting all their eggs in one basket with Jazz might not be the best idea.

I agree with you there, I too believe AC wants to diversify their tier 2 flying beyond just Jazz. Now it's up to Air Canada and ACPA to negotiate the terms to make this happen.

Chopsticks wrote:I agree with you there, I too believe AC wants to diversify their tier 2 flying beyond just Jazz. Now it's up to Air Canada and ACPA to negotiate the terms to make this happen.

Or NOT make this or allow this to happen. ACPA was in line with others in regards to the 757 flying and fodder Jazz pilots with the term "industry standard". I believe its fair to say Jazz has created an "Industry standard" in the regional market with the highest paid regional pilots in the world. For this to go through would create nothing more then another race to the bottom and have little or no regard for the term "industry standard".

Its a difficult balancing act, but i'd like to see ACPA maintain the present language but gain in their quest for a better contract. I think they can do it .. and by sending this out to the membership for a vote tells me they are buying time to find a way to make this work.

Again .. time will tell ..

Cheers! Loc

I'd hardly consider the first few years of pay at Jazz high by any definition...maybe the SKY regional guys will be better paid than Jazz pilots...could happen depending on what experience requirements they set.

tbaylx wrote:I'd hardly consider the first few years of pay at Jazz high by any definition...maybe the SKY regional guys will be better paid than Jazz pilots...could happen depending on what experience requirements they set.

Ummm .. have you looked at the first 2 yrs pay at AC? Considering they're a mainline carrier? I don't think any company really offers a great starter pay .. but in the long run the pay at Jazz is very good and the lifestyle is top notch .. Just like AC after the first 2 yrs.

This is why I doubt Sky Regional will pay better .. first off there bid was lower then Jazz .. second they won't want to pay pilots more then there competition ... Porter ...

Sorry to burst the bubble but this isn't going to lead anywhere but down ...

BTW .. I'm not sure why experience requirements play a part in pay. Jazz is able to get Dash8 pay up because of our status pay system .. the RJ's and 757's help lift the Dash8 pay, not pilot experience.

No arguments here, the AC starting wage is dismal as well. Would be nice to see both ALPA and ACPA put a few negotiating dollars towards raising starting wages. I can't figure out why both MEC's figure you have to make poverty type wages in YYZ for 2 or 3 years before you can make a living and support your family.

As for a reasonable starting wage...Transat (while having different issues) at least pays an F/O a wage you can support a family on. There are others as well. If they can do it how come the biggest regional in Canada and it's mainline partner can't.

tbaylx wrote:No arguments here, the AC starting wage is dismal as well. Would be nice to see both ALPA and ACPA put a few negotiating dollars towards raising starting wages. I can't figure out why both MEC's figure you have to make poverty type wages in YYZ for 2 or 3 years before you can make a living and support your family.

As for a reasonable starting wage...Transat (while having different issues) at least pays an F/O a wage you can support a family on. There are others as well. If they can do it how come the biggest regional in Canada and it's mainline partner can't.

My opinion, Transat is fortunate enough to be in a position where they can negotiate to lift the junior pay scales .. where AC/Jazz have different uses for their bargaining power (pension being the number one issue). I can say that Jazz did get decent uplifts in FO wages (not great, but a start). As for the starter pay .. well you gotta give something to get something and that was the compromise.

How do you know Sky Regional's bid was lower than Jazz?

Johnny#5 wrote:How do you know Sky Regional's bid was lower than Jazz?

Probably cause Jazz didn't get the contract. I'm pretty sure AC wasn't looking for the highest bidder.

That's an uninformed assumption. Do you know for a fact they went with the lowest bidder?

No I don't know for sure, all I know is Jazz management has said we were unsuccessful in the bid for the island flying and would not comment further. I am only assuming its because we were underbid, I would think that is a pretty safe assumption, but yes I could be wrong, its happened before.

Are we a 100% sure that AC is behind all that or are we just speculating?

Buzz Lightyear wrote:Are we a 100% sure that AC is behind all that or are we just speculating?

Behind what exactly? ..

Johnny#5 wrote:How do you know Sky Regional's bid was lower than Jazz?

How many companies do you know pick the highest bidder on a contract?

I'm sure you agree that all companies don't always pick the lowest bidder.

Sometimes there are other factors involved - even in this industry.

I think it's funny that there's negative talk of Sky Regional pilots undercutting Jazz pilots on pay, when Jazz pilots will make significantly less than a Thomas Cook pilot flying the same aircraft . . . or even significantly less than a Skyservice guy made flying the same aircraft.

Can't have it both ways lads.

Holy bullheaded people Batman, who on here still doesn't understand status pay??? Raise your hands now and we'll take you aside and draw nice little pictures with crayons and sticky's, and when you finally understand, you'll get a nice big star beside your name. JAZZ PAYS INDUSTRY STANDARD WAGES FOR THE 57, THEN WE ALL GET TO SHARE THE WEALTH, IT'S SOOOOOO SIMPLE, I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW PEOPLE STILL DON'T GET IT.
For the record I doubt any new operators will be paying 110,000 to fly a Dash, but for the sake of argument, industry standard without a status pay system would likely be around 70,000-80,000. Just guessing.

tbaylx wrote:No arguments here, the AC starting wage is dismal as well. Would be nice to see both ALPA and ACPA put a few negotiating dollars towards raising starting wages. I can't figure out why both MEC's figure you have to make poverty type wages in YYZ for 2 or 3 years before you can make a living and support your family.

As for a reasonable starting wage...Transat (while having different issues) at least pays an F/O a wage you can support a family on. There are others as well. If they can do it how come the biggest regional in Canada and it's mainline partner can't.

Last time I checked, new-hire at AT is a 310 FO. Pay commensurate to revenue generation of aircraft.

Maybe you should check again. Air Transat is a great example of status pay, where F/O's on A310's or A330's make approximately $70,000 to start.

rudder wrote:

tbaylx wrote:No arguments here, the AC starting wage is dismal as well. Would be nice to see both ALPA and ACPA put a few negotiating dollars towards raising starting wages. I can't figure out why both MEC's figure you have to make poverty type wages in YYZ for 2 or 3 years before you can make a living and support your family.

As for a reasonable starting wage...Transat (while having different issues) at least pays an F/O a wage you can support a family on. There are others as well. If they can do it how come the biggest regional in Canada and it's mainline partner can't.

Last time I checked, new-hire at AT is a 310 FO. Pay commensurate to revenue generation of aircraft.

For all those going on about the lowest bidder, etc, nobody here knows what the bids were and what factors they were looking at. I have a hard time believing that Sky Regional was able to underbid Air Georgian, Voyageur and Skylink - some of the most notoriously cheap companies out there. I've heard that Sky Regional will pay approximately the same as Jazz and Porter to start, although details on the actual pay scale and working conditions are not known.

You guys seem to forget that Jazz is actually getting q400s still...we are starting to operate them in december or january. We have people on course right now; and air canada wants us to focus on the q400 operation elsewhere to expand the north american flights so air canada can focus on international flights...Call me stupid, but this is true.

airmech07 wrote:You guys seem to forget that Jazz is actually getting q400s still...we are starting to operate them in december or january. We have people on course right now; and air canada wants us to focus on the q400 operation elsewhere to expand the north american flights so air canada can focus on international flights...Call me stupid, but this is true.

First Jazz Q400 factory delivery not til May 2011.

aerosexual wrote:For all those going on about the lowest bidder, etc, nobody here knows what the bids were and what factors they were looking at. I have a hard time believing that Sky Regional was able to underbid Air Georgian, Voyageur and Skylink - some of the most notoriously cheap companies out there. I've heard that Sky Regional will pay approximately the same as Jazz and Porter to start, although details on the actual pay scale and working conditions are not known.

Notwithstanding what the posted pay rates will be, there is a 'honeymoon' on the cost side as 100% of the employees will be on year 1 pay and year 1 vacation accrual. This would dissipateover time, but it does create a significant cost disparity for several years until the staff increase tenure.

rudder wrote:

airmech07 wrote:You guys seem to forget that Jazz is actually getting q400s still...we are starting to operate them in december or january. We have people on course right now; and air canada wants us to focus on the q400 operation elsewhere to expand the north american flights so air canada can focus on international flights...Call me stupid, but this is true.

First Jazz Q400 factory delivery not til May 2011.

however we are getting 3 used ones till then