Interested by Sky Regional Airlines, please consider

[DanJ]

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Jazz pays its pilots, not Thomas Cook. As part of the wage pool which is shared by ALL Jazz pilots (its called status pay), there are top-scale B757 wages for 37 crews/6 months of the year.

So Jazz will fly the B757 for $155/hr. Transat fly the A330 for $175/hr. Are the AT pilots part of the downward spiral too?

Will the Jazz status pay system last forever? Who knows. But for now it lets pilots pick rank and domicile first and then equipment last.

I'm aware that TC isn't signing the pilot's paychecks. That's not what I said. Jazz is charging TC $155/hr, but the pilot isn't making that amount. I don't know what the number actually is, but for the sake of discussion, lets say the pilot is getting $100 of that, with the other $55 being spread amongst the Dash/RJ pilots. Now the market looks at a Jazz 757 pilot as making $100/hr, not the $155 that the Skyservice 757 pilot made. These are the optics that others are concerned about with this "downward spiral".

[teacher]

Optics don't matter as in the end it's the numbers that matter and they don't lie. The salaries' effect on the bottom line are the same and it is a FACT that Jazz was not the lowest bidder.

There is a line between lowest bidder and winning bid. Often it's not always about price but what the company can offer such as a nation wide base, large pilot pool with no requirement to hire foriegn pilots, very large established dispatch system, large and experienced maintenance division many many years of scheduled airline service experience and the list goes on.

It's also fact that Sky Service was failing, it sucks and I've been there but what did you expect TC to do? Strand their passengers mid season or be proactive?

What was the 757 rate for pilots at SS?

[ChallengerDan]

Now the market looks at a Jazz 757 pilot as making $100/hr, not the $155 that the Skyservice 757 pilot made.

Everybody knows that Jazz uses Status pay system, and as such when you are doing accounting for such an operation, you still need to know your "unit cost".

The Salary for such an operation needs to be in direct relation to Unit Cost which is a projected fraction of Unit Price ( unit cost + markup). Now how that salary will be distributed is not relevant to how much you are actually charging. Those who do not understand that have no business in negotiating pilot wages. Simple accounting, this is.

I sure hope that nobody would accept flying 57s for 100$ an hour, if not within a mutually beneficial system such as status pay. It is like comparing apples and oranges. And anyone pretending that Jazz flies 757 for cheap labor wages needs a good wake-up call. However, I do believe that the status pay system in place at Jazz, with the arrival of bigger metal, will eventually be in jeopardy. There is too much of a gap between the DH1 and the 752 for this to work long term. Eventually the younger guys will move up the scale, as the oldies are retiring, and will want a bigger a slice of the pie. That is just my humble opinion, and I'm not a pilot at Jazz, so I could be wrong.

We are not old USSR or Cuba. Eventually capitalism will triumph.
Jazz is somehow what socialism is to capitalism. At some point you always have some that feel the sharing is not good anymore, especially if they become the ones who "should" be making more.


I see here guys talking about unions, college of pilots and what not. Jazz' pilot union is what a union should be in the first place: raising the bar for each and everyone; these days unions are more about preserving the gold of a selected few... people should take Jazz as an example, not as a target.

[Canoehead]

Has anyone consider the fact that if AC really wants to compete with Porter on the island route they need to offer a somewhat similar type of service? Jazz isn't showing a high quality of onboard service (peanuts and coke, sometimes a smile) and maybe a fresh airline with fresh ideas and a different marketing approach is the only answer to take customers back from Porter.

Just a thought....

Sorry Buzz, but you obviously don't know how the CPA works.
I'll put it to you this way: they'll only be serving peanuts and coke on the shiny new -400's at 'Sky'.

Jazz doesn't control what the pax eat or drink. That is a function of AC.

However, I'm sure the F/A's making $21,000/year to start will be allllll smiles.

This business makes me sick and embarrassed at times....

[whipline]

First, without knowing anything about Sky Regional how can you say not to go there? I can't see anyone paying less then a Jazz FO. I think the original poster is more concerned about his/her career progression not the profession.

Secondly, who says TC is paying 155hr/100hr for a Jazz captain/fo to fly the 757? The Jazz pilots negotiated with Jazz management not TC for their current contract. Who says the current CBA with AC isn't subsidizing the 757 operation? The deal with TC was already signed prior to your contract.

[teacher]

Our collective agreement says that captains will be paid $155/hour divided among the rest of the group. That's a fact and written in black and white in our new C.A.

[dashx]

Corporate decisions put Skyservice pilots on the street .. corporate decisions are putting Sky Regional pilots on the island

Did Russ Payson get away with selling a sinking ship? Who would want to buy a sinking ship?

Well somebody did. And somebody sunk it.

Or did he see the writing on the wall and did what Max Ward did to Canadian?

Chinese blueprints....................

[fish4life]

ok the problem is that even with status pay Jazz wages are still awful compared to other operators I know of running the same equipment... some companies are paying there dash 8 -100 series cpt's more per year than a jazz cpt is making and that company i'm speaking about has there pilots home everynight...

[Mclovin]

So $100,000 plus a year is bad for a dash capt? Oh wait most Captains at Jazz only work 14-15 days a month. Please fish what is a reasonable wage for a dash Captain? Like I said some people just have a hate on for Jazz.

[mbav8r]

Yah, let's pick on CALM Air, they only pay about 85,000 for an ATR42 Captain, and they have a bond. Anyone, anyone? No didn't think so, we'll just keep picking on Jazz.

[mattedfred]

responding to such posts without posing respectfully submitted and direct questions to the original poster will often result in a lengthy thread without any resolution or consensus

responding to such posts with respectfully submitted and direct questions is unlikely to solicit a reply

which method do you think would better serve your interests?

few people troll the www seeking the truth. too many of us are just seeking validation for the conclusions that we have already reached on our own

[bcflyer]

ok the problem is that even with status pay Jazz wages are still awful compared to other operators I know of running the same equipment... some companies are paying there dash 8 -100 series cpt's more per year than a jazz cpt is making and that company i'm speaking about has there pilots home everynight...

Mind sharing which companies those are? I'm genuinely interested to know who pays their D8-100 guys 100k a year to work 14-16 days a month with full benefits, pass travel and still be home every night..

[Localizer]

In regards to the Status pay system ... I think that horse is dead. If you don't get it .. you never will, and if you don't like it .. tough .. don't work there. If all you're trying to do is get feathers ruffled .. move on.

This is just getting stupid.

[whipline]

Teacher, whats written in your pilot contract has nothing to do with the deal Jazz made with TC. There is only one way we would know the rates TC is actually paying and thats the contract between Jazz and TC. Do you have a copy of that?

I can also tell you if your running 6 aircraft on a charter schedule with 38 captains and 38 fo's you're 14 pilots short.

My questions revolve around the profit Randal said you were going to make. To put it in perspective Jazz's profit would have to be around $1100 for every hour flown. Anyone think thats possible? I don't care who flies the aircraft. I don't care about status pay. I do think the numbers are fictitious. I can't think of one reason Jazz will be less expensive then Skyservice.

[Localizer]

I can't think of one reason Jazz will be less expensive then Skyservice.

Maybe there were corporate issues between SSV management and TC? Then TC decides to move in a new direction and find lift elsewhere. Or maybe TC lost confidence in SSV management? Who knows what the reason's are .. the point is TC decided to move on.

[teacher]

Teacher, whats written in your pilot contract has nothing to do with the deal Jazz made with TC. There is only one way we would know the rates TC is actually paying and thats the contract between Jazz and TC. Do you have a copy of that?

I can also tell you if your running 6 aircraft on a charter schedule with 38 captains and 38 fo's you're 14 pilots short.

My questions revolve around the profit Randal said you were going to make. To put it in perspective Jazz's profit would have to be around $1100 for every hour flown. Anyone think thats possible? I don't care who flies the aircraft. I don't care about status pay. I do think the numbers are fictitious. I can't think of one reason Jazz will be less expensive then Skyservice.

You're sadly grasping at straws my friend. If Jazz is "paying" it's captains $155/hour and charging TC less they're flying at a loss (on pilot services anyway). That is poor business sense and I DOUBT they would fly at a loss. No point doing the work if you're not making money.

Second, if you

can't think of one reason Jazz will be less expensive then Skyservice

than we sure as hell are not undercutting what SSV used to charge. Fact is SSV was unfortunatly failing and TC had to look elsewhere.

[rudder]

I can't think of one reason Jazz will be less expensive then Skyservice.

That statement is debatable. However, the fact remains that Jazz is in business and SSV is not....and for reasons that are unrelated to Jazz. If Jazz had not been awarded the TC contract, somebody else would have been. SSV was out of the running as they were insolvent.

[Double Wasp]

ok the problem is that even with status pay Jazz wages are still awful compared to other operators I know of running the same equipment... some companies are paying there dash 8 -100 series cpt's more per year than a jazz cpt is making and that company i'm speaking about has there pilots home everynight...

So $100,000 plus a year is bad for a dash capt? Oh wait most Captains at Jazz only work 14-15 days a month. Please fish what is a reasonable wage for a dash Captain? Like I said some people just have a hate on for Jazz.

Nobody said that it was a bad wage for a Captain. I think 100k per year is a great starting wage for a Dash Captain. Wait that is with 15 years seniority, what is the year 1 DEC rate for a Jazz again? According to APC it is between $69K and $75K, still pretty pathetic. Nothing against Jazz, Porter's wage needs to go up as well. However when comparing Jazz to your competition, Westjet, the FO starting wage is well behind.

And before I get flamed comparing WJ and Jazz, with the 757's the Jazz flying is nearly the same, regional and transborder with sun destinations. The WJ payscale would have been a better goal post than thumping your chest proud that you are beating the regional carriers to the south. Regarding being the best paying regional pilots in the world comments... I can pick 5 off of the top of my head.

I wish the Sky Regional guys the best of luck, maybe they will make everyone else pick up their game.... not holding my breath though.

Flame away


DW

[Mclovin]

I'm not going to flame at all. I am not going to try to defend Jazz anymore. Whats the point? You and many others have formed your opinion about the company and nothing anyone can say will change your mind. I have no interest in this anymore.

[bcflyer]

Anybody have firm real numbers as to what Sky Regional is going to be paying? Not interested in what you think its worth, want to know real figures.

[Dark Helmet]

Wesjet Flies an all B737NG fleet. Jazz only has 6 757's, with a possibility for 11 on the horizon, which BTW will increase the pilot salary.

If Jazz had an all 757 fleet, The wages would be nuch higher. The DH8 and CRJ dilutes the wage down.

I can see that there are a lot of people here don't undersand the status pay system at Jazz. Every company has their own Payscales and formats. The one at Jazz may not be perfect but it works and those who work here are happy with it.

[Rubberbiscuit]

ok the problem is that even with status pay Jazz wages are still awful compared to other operators I know of running the same equipment... some companies are paying there dash 8 -100 series cpt's more per year than a jazz cpt is making and that company i'm speaking about has there pilots home everynight...

So $100,000 plus a year is bad for a dash capt? Oh wait most Captains at Jazz only work 14-15 days a month. Please fish what is a reasonable wage for a dash Captain? Like I said some people just have a hate on for Jazz.

Nobody said that it was a bad wage for a Captain. I think 100k per year is a great starting wage for a Dash Captain. Wait that is with 15 years seniority, what is the year 1 DEC rate for a Jazz again? According to APC it is between $69K and $75K, still pretty pathetic. Nothing against Jazz, Porter's wage needs to go up as well. However when comparing Jazz to your competition, Westjet, the FO starting wage is well behind.

And before I get flamed comparing WJ and Jazz, with the 757's the Jazz flying is nearly the same, regional and transborder with sun destinations. The WJ payscale would have been a better goal post than thumping your chest proud that you are beating the regional carriers to the south. Regarding being the best paying regional pilots in the world comments... I can pick 5 off of the top of my head.

I wish the Sky Regional guys the best of luck, maybe they will make everyone else pick up their game.... not holding my breath though.

Flame away


DW

I don't work for Jazz, but isn't it years of service?.... meaning if you've been with Jazz for say, 6 years when upgraded you go to 6th year Captain pay?

I think status pay is a great concept, practiced by many airlines in Europe and elsewhere. Chase lifestyle, not tin!!

[teacher]

Yes, years of service not years in the seat.

[North Shore]

^ Is that, in a nutshell, 'Status pay' ? Regardless of equipment flown, a 1st year employee earns $x, while a 2nd earns $x + 5% (say) 3rd $x + 10% and so on...

[Localizer]

^ Is that, in a nutshell, 'Status pay' ? Regardless of equipment flown, a 1st year employee earns $x, while a 2nd earns $x + 5% (say) 3rd $x + 10% and so on...

Yes ... based on years of service, not the seat you occupy.