Airline Pilot Rejects TSA

[Nark]

I use mine to get discounts.

[2.5milefinal]

Question for all you people (pilots) that think this all okay and just part of being a pilot.
How long do you think it will be before you have no choice and have to go through the full body scan?
...bunch of sheep

[TG]

The day they will be able to detect surgical explosive implant.

[godsrcrazy]

... The RAIC allows us to do our job just a little easier....

Please elaborate.

BBB

This topic truly is like beating ones head against the wall. Comments like the Tim Hortons employee having more Privileges then pilots what a crock. They walk through the same security line up as the rest of us.

BBB As for elaborate about the RAIC after you go through security does the RAIC not allow you access to your aircraft along with ramp access without being escorted.

For all of you that think they should not be question please read the below article. I bet Col Williams thought he was above ever having to go through any security checks or be questioned. Lets not forget this guy probably had more security clearance then we could ever imagine having. This just proves anyone of us can slip a disk and do some thing totally crazy. Lets not forget there are some people that are desperate enough they don't have to bring something across to blow up the plane they are on. You just have to bring it across for some other foul to do it.

Again the fact is this guy refused a simple pat down because he felt he is just a little better then everyone else. Now that he probably realized what a mistake he made of him self he is looking for more people to support him. This all because the company probably looked at it and said we cannot support you not following the rules.

Col. Russell Williams pleads guilty
Warning: This story contains disturbing details (CBC News)

[North Shore]

Gods, spare us - at some point there has to be trust in the system. Working airline pilots don't need any weapons to create havoc in an airliner - all they need to do is crank the stick hard over on t/o or landing, and there's probably bugger all their co-worker can do about it in the few seconds left. Therefore it is pointless to subject them to the same weapons/explosives and liquids, gels etc.. checks before they go to work...

[godsrcrazy]

Gods, spare us - at some point there has to be trust in the system. Working airline pilots don't need any weapons to create havoc in an airliner - all they need to do is crank the stick hard over on t/o or landing, and there's probably bugger all their co-worker can do about it in the few seconds left. Therefore it is pointless to subject them to the same weapons/explosives and liquids, gels etc.. checks before they go to work...

Yes you are correct all of us being just that much better then them poor suckers we fly around. They really do need to realize just how powerful we really are. I wonder how much trust the Government and citizens of Canada had in Col Williams.

[fish4life]

Gods, spare us - at some point there has to be trust in the system. Working airline pilots don't need any weapons to create havoc in an airliner - all they need to do is crank the stick hard over on t/o or landing, and there's probably bugger all their co-worker can do about it in the few seconds left. Therefore it is pointless to subject them to the same weapons/explosives and liquids, gels etc.. checks before they go to work...

Yes you are correct all of us being just that much better then them poor suckers we fly around. They really do need to realize just how powerful we really are. I wonder how much trust the Government and citizens of Canada had in Col Williams.

I agree completely with north shore... as for Col Williams sure we have trust in him but he doesn't have access to the flight deck therefore would need to slip something past security to be able to take the plane down. where as the pilots have access to the flight deck (obviously since they are flying) and it doesn't matter whether or not they slip something past security because like north short stated on take off they are at the controls and can easily put that aircraft into the ground if they want to.

[Troubleshot]

I go through security all the time with my coffee, leatherman, tool bag, etc....I agree that pilots should be allowed a few more rights and freedoms at airports. If it means we (as professionals) are subject to deeper background checks at the beginning of the RAIC process, so be it.

The funny thing is the people that want to do harm will not try and gain access to the secure area by conventional means. Holding up pilots with extra security points only ties up staff that could be used to plug huge holes that exist around the airports already today.

[TG]

A lot seems to forgot that every dude or dudette can go online buy a set of uniform with wings, bars (or steal them for that matter) work photoshop, get a false ID and pose as a pilot.

It's not against crew or passengers they are after but the fake ones!


Same thing with the customs. Nothing to declare !?
The customs officer looks at all the elements he have about you, make a decision and hop! off you go (or not) to the search room...

If only TSA would use the same psychological screening method as El Al I'm sure they would have more success at every level.
But then at El Al, they are way more motivated, got a much better pay and I would imagine go through some sort of a good selection process. Not much of this to be seen with airport screening members!

In meanwhile, between pat down and scanner, I know which one is faster.

[fish4life]

El Al should be looked to for proper security but then again there would be outrage since its not "politically correct" even though they have the best security record in one of the worst regions

as for photo shopping an ID i think it would be extremely difficult to photo shop the RAIC and put in your bio metrics with the retina scan and finger prints and still get it to work when you pass through the security doors

[North Shore]

Ye Gods! So how is any security check/pat-down/scanner supposed to stop a guy like Williams? I'd assume, being a Colonel and all, he probably had a pretty detailed security clearance, yet it failed to pick up that he liked to break into women's houses and steal their underwear. You think that a pat down is going to solve that? I'll state again: you HAVE to trust the pilots at some level: you could strip them naked for the entire flight, and there's nothing that could be done if they jerk the controls at the wrong moment. Harassing them prior to their going to work does NOTHING for flight safety. All that needs to be done is have a biometric (retina? fingerprint?) scan to get through a security bypass, and a detailed background check prior to the issuance of same..

[fish4life]

Ye Gods! So how is any security check/pat-down/scanner supposed to stop a guy like Williams? I'd assume, being a Colonel and all, he probably had a pretty detailed security clearance, yet it failed to pick up that he liked to break into women's houses and steal their underwear. You think that a pat down is going to solve that? I'll state again: you HAVE to trust the pilots at some level: you could strip them naked for the entire flight, and there's nothing that could be done if they jerk the controls at the wrong moment. Harassing them prior to their going to work does NOTHING for flight safety. All that needs to be done is have a biometric (retina? fingerprint?) scan to get through a security bypass, and a detailed background check prior to the issuance of same..

+1 thank you

[TG]

Then read this again.

A lot seems to forgot that every dude or dudette can go online buy a set of uniform with wings, bars (or steal them for that matter) work photoshop, get a false ID and pose as a pilot.

[fish4life]

as for photo shopping an ID i think it would be extremely difficult to photo shop the RAIC and put in your bio metrics with the retina scan and finger prints and still get it to work when you pass through the security doors

and this once again... photo shopping isn't an option you have to have an approved RAIC with biometrics its not just a company issued ID... TG do you have a RAIC? if you do then you should know its not as simple as a fake id

[Flying Low]

See my last reply. The RAIC allows us to do our job just a little easier. I doesn't mean your wife didn't just through your ass out and now you decided others should pay.

A pilot could walk through the checkpoint naked and still crash the plane if they were so inclined. Just how many instances of this do you know about where a pilot, having a bad day, decided to end it all? Must be pretty common to require all this enhanced screen for crew on top of our security clearance. I must have missed a whole list of accident reports.

[Brantford Beech Boy]

BBB As for elaborate about the RAIC after you go through security does the RAIC not allow you access to your aircraft along with ramp access without being escorted.

My licence grants me unsupervised airside access. I haven't had a RAIC for some time. Haven't needed one. Except for Pearson, I've been airside at most major Canadian airports at one time or another in the last year (and if you want to go back about 2.5 years ago, I was airside at CYYZ almost daily without a RAIC)...

as for the argument, I think North Shore et al have covered it.

BBB

[godsrcrazy]

Ok i give up the only 1 that seems to get what i am saying is TG. I will give it 1 more shot. It does not matter what authority you have you can flip your lid just like the col Williams. Have you not watched the news over the last few years regarding those whom are Canadians citizens turning to terrorism.

I guess you would all agree on as long as you have an RAIC or a pilots license you should be able to just pull it out and walk right on through security no matter if you are on duty or not

As I said i give up

[Topspin]

Im just curious if anyone can find all of the actual regulations that CATSA must follow. I can find the act but not the regs. It would be nice to know what rules we actually have to follow and the power of the CATSA employee. ie.....does CATSA actually have the authority to take your RAIC even though it clearly says on the back "Property of the Calgary Airport Authority" (or insert airport name)

Canadian Aviation Security Regulations

50. (1) A person in possession of a restricted area identity card must, on demand, surrender it to the Minister, an aerodrome operator, a screening officer or a peace officer.

(3) A screening officer may demand the surrender of a restricted area identity card if

(a) the card has expired or has been reported as lost or stolen;
(b) the card has been deactivated; or
(c) the screening officer is conducting screening at a restricted area access point or at a location in a restricted area and the person who is in possession of the card refuses to submit to a screening or to the screening of goods in his or her possession or control.

[whipline]

Godscrazy I don't think your getting the point. I don't need a bomb. I don't need a gun. I don't need pepper spray. I don't need a knife. All I need to do is walk into the cockpit, lock the security door, start the engines power back off the gate and ram that shiney 380 from emirates. Tell my how going through a metal dector, being wanded, being padded down and removing my shoes is going to stop that? Colonel Klink wasn't killing people with airplanes. He doesn't have a RAIC. I don't see a parrallel. Do you think passangers feel safer because the flight crew has to go through security as well? Am I a safer pilot because I went through security? If CISIS trusts me, the GTAA trusts me, my company trusts me and transport trusts me then maybe you should to. If not there's always the train.

[sakism]

... The RAIC allows us to do our job just a little easier....

If the RAIC does not allow us any advantages at security, then it actually doesn't change our job description at all.

It is designed to make CATSAs job easier by identifying idividuals that have passed extensive screening and therefore do not need to be escorted onto the ramp. If they want to send someone around with me while I do my duties then they are welcome to fill their boots - doesn't make my job any more difficult, or any easier.

As was also pointed out, one needs only a CPL to move around unescorted on the ramp.

I don't believe CATSA, or anyone else, can deny me entering my aircraft.

So maybe the answer is to stop wearing our RAICs entirely. If they won't make our jobs any easier, why should we be making theirs any easier??

Just to add another argument, if my RAIC allows me unrestricted access to the ramp, what would prevent me from building a weapon of some sort from things I find while wandering around unaccompanied?

The whole scenario is ridiculous. As pilots we can crash the plane whenever we want, we can build weapons from things that we have access to and yet we still can't take a bottle of Coca Cola past security.

[Dash-Ate]

[Johnny#5]

thats awesome....

[TG]

Godscrazy I don't think your getting the point. I don't need a bomb. I don't need a gun. I don't need pepper spray. I don't need a knife. All I need to do is walk into the cockpit,

The whole scenario is ridiculous. As pilots we can crash the plane whenever we want, we can build weapons from things that we have access to and yet we still can't take a bottle of Coca Cola past security.

We all know that!
For the third time, it's the fakes one they are after. Not the real ones!
It's not written on your foreheads that you are real ones. You could show them all your credentials if you want, they just don't ask for it.
And pretty much anything can be forged anyway.

Make it too easy and anybody can pretend being a dead heading 'Pilot' and smuggle whatever for his buddies.
Or as mentioned elsewhere you could just be a target if someone was going to put you under duress to carry something through.

Getting my point now !?

Speaking about on guard TSA, I had a friend being searched exactly like the picture above and he was wearing shorts and sandals.



We are doomed anyway....

[crazy_aviator]

BECAUSE pilots themselves favour doing evil in the cockpit by taking said plane into a smoking hole ,,,, we therefore need a Pshychologist ( shrink) to sit down with every pilot and determine ( grade ) said pilot as to his/her stability for the flight(s) and any potential for adversive actions (suicide) , eating airline food and the like !!!

[YYZatcboy]

And once again, The Biometrics will identify the false ones. If the biometrics don't agree or read on the hand scanner then I can't bypass because the door will not unlock. If I go through the security check point they check the ID. Photoshoping a RAIC is useless as already explained because the biometrics won't work when tested by the bypass or by CATSA. Same deal.