Thank you AirCanada

[Dark Helmet]

It does suck, However a lot of Jazz pilots are now using their Jump with WJ, Transat, and Porter to get to work. Ac has gotten too expensive due to the increase in service charges.

[genetic jack hammer]

Havajava...
+ 1 !
Proper...just pm me and I will pass your name along.
Oh, and please DO NOT use, nor enjoy your C2 pass to London, Paris, or Hong Kong. Please DO NOT ask for the jump seat to Orlando, or Miami etc.
As an idependant and wholly owned non Air Canada feeder, you have an excellent agreement in regards to the above travel perks. Jazz supplies a product to Air Canada, just like CARA does, yet you also have benefits that other contractors do not. If the present relationship bothers you, please start a campaign to change it!

Don't worry the C2 passes are coming to an end at the end of this year.Lets see you try and commute on a C3 pass good luck with that.

Let's see mainline pilot's asking for the J/S on Jazz flights.

[Lateralus]

Havajava...
+ 1 !
Proper...just pm me and I will pass your name along.
Oh, and please DO NOT use, nor enjoy your C2 pass to London, Paris, or Hong Kong. Please DO NOT ask for the jump seat to Orlando, or Miami etc.
As an idependant and wholly owned non Air Canada feeder, you have an excellent agreement in regards to the above travel perks. Jazz supplies a product to Air Canada, just like CARA does, yet you also have benefits that other contractors do not. If the present relationship bothers you, please start a campaign to change it!

Don't worry the C2 passes are coming to an end at the end of this year.Lets see you try and commute on a C3 pass good luck with that.

Let's see mainline pilot's asking for the J/S on Jazz flights.

Dude I know your frustrated with this as am I. But it is not ACPA that makes this call it comes from management. We have to be honest with ourselves here, why would mainline let a Jazz Pilot/FA commute to work to go fly a TC 757? This hit me a few months ago when I was talking to an FO who is on the 57 now and commutes, I thought I'm sure AC will have something to say about this. And here we are.

Please be the bigger man and don't deny the J/S, so many people depend on it. I had a AC FA the other day who had to get home, his mother is extremely sick and we were happy to have him onboard and even happier when we found out how important this was for him.

We won't win any battles by snubbing AC pilots out of J/S. Not all AC pilots hate Jazz, and vice versa. We need to see the big picture here, our two groups NEED to and CAN work together to secure our employment and working conditions.

What I don't appreciate though is the obvious is the posts from derk99 who is happy to see Jazz pilots suffer, we don't need that shit on either side.

[Localizer]

Don't worry the C2 passes are coming to an end at the end of this year.Lets see you try and commute on a C3 pass good luck with that.

You have no idea what you're talking about ..

Don't let the troll pull you in .. C2 status is not going to change.

[whiteguy]

Don't worry the C2 passes are coming to an end at the end of this year.Lets see you try and commute on a C3 pass good luck with that.

You have no idea what you're talking about ..

Don't let the troll pull you in .. C2 status is not going to change.

I believe someone said that about the C3 status to!

[Localizer]

Don't worry the C2 passes are coming to an end at the end of this year.Lets see you try and commute on a C3 pass good luck with that.

You have no idea what you're talking about ..

Don't let the troll pull you in .. C2 status is not going to change.

I believe someone said that about the C3 status to!

There was a memo sent to all Jazz employee's regarding the travel benefit .. and there will be no changes to the program or priority for the duration of the CPA. I thought this bug was squashed ..

[Brick Head]

Yesterday morning I finally made up my mind as I read a memo from our Union ALPA stating as mentioned above.

-Proper

Why has ALPA chosen to inflame, rather than explain?

Looks a little irresponsible to me. Anyone want to explain? This is beginning to sound like my Irish roots. "Why do you hate him? Because my Dad taught me to."

from another thread.

Mattedfred

You leave irrelevant language in your CA that is being ignored and not followed? That results in estoppel down the road. If people don't know what that means.

If you do not enforce your contractual rights? You forfeit them.

The 757 and the Q400 grievance are house cleaning issues. What exactly is our scope on props right now? Is it 76 or 80 seats? I don't know the answer. If we do nothing, and someone decides they think we have forfeited our rights to say a 76 seat restriction? They may try, correction they will drive a 100 seat -8 through our scope. The 757 is the same. Our CA says you can't do it. We all know it is outdated language but we don't have a choice. We try to enforce it, or forfeit it. We all know in the end the language will just be changed to reflect today's realities. IE you can't do that for AC.

No one expects to fly the Q400 at mainline. No one expects to stop the 757.

The Q400 grievance might (unlikely) provide an opportunity for the repatriation of bargaining capital but that is it.

Way too much attention going to those grievances.

[teacher]

Not to inflame but to inform. It was simply an update on the 2 grievences filed by ACPA.

[Brick Head]

Not to inflame but to inform. It was simply an update on the 2 grievences filed by ACPA.

Inform? Funny when I read the thread I read a lot of uninformed angry individuals.

Why is that? Just an oops?

Proper,

Not a slight at you. I actually think your post is very important. It reflects an ongoing 15+ year problem.

As someone who has sat on both sides of the fence totaling nearly 25 years now I can assure you this kind of BS is not new. ACPA is not out to screw you despite claims to the contrary.

[Sage]

There was a memo sent to all Jazz employee's regarding the travel benefit .. and there will be no changes to the program or priority for the duration of the CPA. I thought this bug was squashed ..

You can keep your C2. We are all going C1.

[LisaS]

You mean....................nah nah naaa naaaaaa nah! Grow up.

[Inverted2]

Havajava...
+ 1 !
Proper...just pm me and I will pass your name along.
Oh, and please DO NOT use, nor enjoy your C2 pass to London, Paris, or Hong Kong. Please DO NOT ask for the jump seat to Orlando, or Miami etc.
As an idependant and wholly owned non Air Canada feeder, you have an excellent agreement in regards to the above travel perks. Jazz supplies a product to Air Canada, just like CARA does, yet you also have benefits that other contractors do not. If the present relationship bothers you, please start a campaign to change it!

Don't worry the C2 passes are coming to an end at the end of this year.Lets see you try and commute on a C3 pass good luck with that.

Whatever troll! Your 10 posts under your belt gives you no credibility. The C3 rumour has no truth to it, and it would be political suicide. No ACPA commuters on my Jazz flights (and there are many) would get on due to W&B issues!!

But seriously, I appreciated the support of ACPA this summer but if you are grieving the Q400s and TC flying, I sure won't be supporting you guys next summer, and you're gonna need it.

[teacher]

Not to inflame but to inform. It was simply an update on the 2 grievences filed by ACPA.

Inform? Funny when I read the thread I read a lot of uninformed angry individuals.

Why is that? Just an oops?

The email sent by ALPA was to inform, the grievences are inflamming.

[Dark Helmet]

Brickhead,

The reason why people are pissed is because the grievances were filed despite the fact that the language in which in governs may be outdated, and no longer applicable. I understand why ACPA did it, the questions is, was it a good idea to do so.

The pilot group is also jaded and worn out from the recent contract negotiations. Gains were made but not after the company's dirty tactics in getting the government involved. Not to mention, Jazz management did tarnish the company reputation by bargaining in bad faith.

Botton line: The Jazz pilots are on edge. The Q400, and the 757 news was a bit of fresh air. The Skyregional deal (I understand why it is being done) plus the grievances has opened some old wounds and scars. Hence the anymosity.

Put it this way, how would the AC pilots feel if all of the sudden Jazz ALPA spent all of their capital to try to get the EMJ and the Airbuses? and then signed a CPA with WJ for 75 Q400's?

The ALPA memo itself was very straight forward and unbiassed.

[F-16]

Interesting to note, I was on a revenue ticket today, but alas, Jazz crews were coming back on AC flights from B757 training.

Love to know if you are paying for those, of if Jazz is trying to put this under the radar and deadhead crews to AC flights, so they can train to fly aircraft to compete against AC.

WRT negots, It's funny to see pilots get upset and threaten to take away support (though ACPA gave support to Jazz), due to the fact that ACPA is finally undergoing the scope grievances (after multiple delays over the last few years), to try and uphold a contract that has been in place for the last number of years - it's not like this was just added last month.

These clauses have been around - but as long as ACPA didn't act on them, it was okay for the Jazz pilots?

But now, that ACPA is finally acting on them, Jazz wants to take their ball and go home?

I would love to see the wording in the CPA for the pass agreement, it should be back the way it was, Jazz first on Jazz, Mainline first on mainline - and no buying seniority (c1's).

Can easily be changed by overhauling the pass policy and creating new levels.

[Localizer]

Interesting to note, I was on a revenue ticket today, but alas, Jazz crews were coming back on AC flights from B757 training.

Love to know if you are paying for those, of if Jazz is trying to put this under the radar and deadhead crews to AC flights, so they can train to fly aircraft to compete against AC.

Jazz pays for those seats. DH's are used for AC business.

I would love to see the wording in the CPA for the pass agreement, it should be back the way it was, Jazz first on Jazz, Mainline first on mainline - and no buying seniority (c1's).

Can easily be changed by overhauling the pass policy and creating new levels.

AC controls the pass agreement .. not ACPA, and to waste bargaining capital on the pass agreement would be silly IMO. Maybe your focus should be on pay, pension, and working conditions for the junior folks.

[Brick Head]

Brickhead,

The reason why people are pissed is because the grievances were filed despite the fact that the language in which in governs may be outdated, and no longer applicable. I understand why ACPA did it, the questions is, was it a good idea to do so.

Dark Helmet,

Was it a good idea? Yes. Although personally I would file it under no choice.

Estoppel, or past practice as it is referred to often, is a very real threat.

If ACPA does not grieve the Q400, this is what will happen one day down the road.

The company will pull out the letter from CCAA that says Article 1 (scope) is amended to a max seating capacity of 76 seats for all aircraft. Then say, since Jazz/Sky is operating aircraft with a max seating capacity of 78 seats? Past practice indicates you didn't defend scope at 76 seats. So poof, it is gone. No limit. Jets too? You see the same letter that we have taken to grievance. The same letter that is causing all the pissed off faces on your side of the fence, could potentially be turned on us.

If we don't grieve the 757? Past practice becoming we had no problem with Jazz flying 757's even though the CA forbid it. Why do we have a problem when they are now flying them under AC code?

This is basic LRD stuff. Your LRD will tell you the same. Defend the language or loose it. Never let language sit that is no longer applicable or could potentially be interpreted to your detriment. It can and will be used against you.

From where I sit I see people pissed off with ACPA for protecting its interests. Interests that will have no impact on the Q400 or the TC contract.

[teacher]

Q400s, the TC contract, flying OUTSIDE the CPA, large jets, expanded flying under the CPA and possible wide body flying OUTSIDE the CPA is all about protecting our interests so why all the pissed off faces on your side of the fence?

[Johnny767]

Proper:

After 4 years at Jazz, you are unfortunately buying into the "Association's" (CALPA, ALPA, ACPA...they're all the same) rhetoric. The Pilots that do the Association's work (...not all of them...) have an axe to grind.

On the J/S issue:

I will take a Pilot (any Pilot legal to be there) in the Jumpseat before any other employee.

Jazz taking on the 757 is a "game changer," the pass priority isn't going to change in the short term. However, the screaming from Mainline is only going to get louder.

The seats in the back of your Aircraft (on the CPA flights,) belong to Air Canada.

Jazz and Air Canada are now competitors. We can still exchange Professional Courtesy.

[Brick Head]

Q400s, the TC contract, flying OUTSIDE the CPA, large jets, expanded flying under the CPA and possible wide body flying OUTSIDE the CPA is all about protecting our interests so why all the pissed off faces on your side of the fence?

Just like your side. We have people on our side that don't get it.

Congrats on the TC extension to 5 years by the way. I was wondering if you had lost it because it took so long to finalize. When does your first 757 arrive.

[Dark Helmet]

Brickhead,

I understand, I might not like it but I understand. You were wondering why the animosity among the Jazz pilots towards ACPA. You were also implying that ALPA had something to do with it.

I was just trying to explain why and set the record straight.

Thats it.

Johnny,

Jazz and AC are now competitors because ACE set us up to be that way. We are separate companies and both will need to do what they need to do to survive. If AC feels they need to diversify they will. The same for Jazz.

What do you expect, Jazz to sit back and watch while AC shuts Jazz down?

[Johnny767]

I have no issues, at all, with what Jazz is doing.

Just realize that it is a "game changer" and Mainline employees are not going to sit quietly and watch Jazz Pilots, sitting in J-Class, in an Air Canada Uniform, Deadheading to fly a TC flight.

Or - happily sit in the boarding lounge in Honolulu, as a Jazz employee boards the flight to Vancouver and they get left behind.

Nothing stays the same for long in this industry and there are plenty more to come.

[Brick Head]

Brickhead,

I understand, I might not like it but I understand. You were wondering why the animosity among the Jazz pilots towards ACPA. You were also implying that ALPA had something to do with it.

I was just trying to explain why and set the record straight.

Thats it.

Fair enough. The one thing I didn't mention was probably something that would alleviate the obvious concern. What if by some fluke ACPA wins the Q400 grievance? The deal to allow AC to ramp up with Sky, the one we voted on, has a statement in it basically stating it would be traded for something of value.

IOW this is about clarity on scope and bargaining capital. Not about flying a Q400.

Think about it. Do you think AC would ramp up Sky if they didn't have some assurance over the Q400 grievance? They know they can operate a Q400 there. What they don't know, and what part of the disagreement with the company is about, is if we will be given bargaining credit for it.

[Lost in Saigon]

The game is changing.

The trend now is to park 50 seat jets in favour of larger turboprops. These larger turboprops can fit into the scope of mainline airlines. I remember flying on similar sized large turboprops at Air Canada in the 60's and 70's. In the long run, pilots flying these aircraft will be better off if they are employed at the mainline. The "Regional Airline" may now be a dinosaur who's time is over.

[mattedfred]

Just realize that it is a "game changer" and Mainline employees are not going to sit quietly and watch Jazz Pilots, sitting in J-Class, in an Air Canada Uniform, Deadheading to fly a TC flight.

We may not be wearing the Air Canada uniform for much longer. Word is that our brothers and sisters at ACPA would prefer that we not wear their uniform anymore and that we are shopping around for an alternative.

I've only been commuting since March of this year but I have made a conscious choice to commute via Porter or WestJet since the service charge waiver wasn't extended to Jazz employees at the start of this year.

I have flown a few Canjet crews around on Jazz flights. I expect that Canjet pays for these tickets just as Jazz would be required to, unless AC has agreed to an alternate arrangement.