I have to think 80% or more pilots shouldn't attempt a turnback

To Cat first of all.

Perhaps you could let others state an opinion with taking it as a criticism of yourself. That simply does not lead to good discussions.

How long does it take to teach a student to safely perform this maneuver?

trey kule wrote:I think I getting up to speed on this.
When it really happens we have to check to see that we have 500 feet (for example

Cat Driver wrote:I am in this discussion because I believe it needs to be discussed and examined to find better solutions to how or where to land in an emergency other than straight ahead or a turn back to the runway...

....there is a lot that can be examined in this exercise and maybe some different attitudes will come out of such a discussion other than strict adherence to one or two choices.

AuxBatOn wrote:

trey kule wrote:

I don't say to attempt a turn around if you get an engine faillure and you never did it before, however, practice it a few times in different conditions, make some mental references to which you can fall back when you prep for take off. That way, you can come up with a safe altitude for a turnback everytime. Easy.

Hedley wrote:

the PC12 which IS capable of the manoeuvre

I have no doubt!

Let me try to explain this. Let's say you went to a website where people
said that stairs were dangerous, and if you tried to run up (or down) a set
of stairs, you would surely die, because it is IMPOSSIBLE and people had
DIED TRYING.

What would your response be?

Towing and the Simulated or Actual Rope Break

A rope break is one of those things that must always be in the back of our mind on each tow, both from the tow pilot’s viewpoint and the glider pilot’s viewpoint. From a glider pilot’s point of view, while on tow, he should be asking himself the questions: “Where do I go from here if the rope breaks now?” “What do I have available, a field ahead, a clearing to my right?” “Which way is best to turn?” The objective is to be close enough to land right back at the glider field. I choose the words “right back” because we use the initials RB to indicate Rope Break on our day sheet or flight log. One person decided it should signify “Right Back”—because the glider turns around and comes right back.

When to expect these simulated rope break drills? As a tow pilot, expect the simulated rope break during specific training situations. Our instructors like to give a simulated rope break at an altitude of 200 to 300 feet. This is the “right back” scenario. The glider can turn around and land back at the field given an altitude of approximately 200 feet.

A simulated rope break is a must before a student’s first solo.

Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they are yours -- Richard Bach

Hedley wrote:There is this thing called a glider. It is towed into the air by using a rope to pull it. Sometimes the rope breaks. Sometimes the rope breaks at low altitude. As a result, low-time glider pilots are experts at the turnback:

http://www.glider.org/SafetyCorner/TowP ... eBreak.htm

Towing and the Simulated or Actual Rope Break

A rope break is one of those things that must always be in the back of our mind on each tow, both from the tow pilot’s viewpoint and the glider pilot’s viewpoint. From a glider pilot’s point of view, while on tow, he should be asking himself the questions: “Where do I go from here if the rope breaks now?” “What do I have available, a field ahead, a clearing to my right?” “Which way is best to turn?” The objective is to be close enough to land right back at the glider field. I choose the words “right back” because we use the initials RB to indicate Rope Break on our day sheet or flight log. One person decided it should signify “Right Back”—because the glider turns around and comes right back.

When to expect these simulated rope break drills? As a tow pilot, expect the simulated rope break during specific training situations. Our instructors like to give a simulated rope break at an altitude of 200 to 300 feet. This is the “right back” scenario. The glider can turn around and land back at the field given an altitude of approximately 200 feet.

A simulated rope break is a must before a student’s first solo.

Now, does anyone here see a parallel between the rope breaking in a glider, and the engine failing in a powered aircraft?

I refuse to believe that every glider pilots is Bob Hoover re-incarnated, because Bob isn't dead yet.

The difference between a glider pilot and a power pilot is the training they have received as a result of the attitude of the respective pilot community.

You do NOT need to have 10,000 hours and be the "Ace of the Base" to do a turnback. Like a crosswind landing, with some training and practise, you can do it.

I think I know how those Australian researchers felt, when they discovered that ulcers were caused by bacteria in the stomach.

Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they are yours -- Richard Bach

For the last time nobody here is arguing with you that it can't be done with the appropriate training.We get it ! What your dissenters are arguing is that your average joe IS NOT getting any training in turn-backs and never will.It is not part of TC syllabus and I doubt very much it will find it's way in there any time soon

unless it were done at altitude.

AuxBatOn wrote:

trey kule wrote:I think I getting up to speed on this.
When it really happens we have to check to see that we have 500 feet (for example

Actually, you should make that decision before take off and make a mental note when you pass the magic altitude, that way, there is no doubt in your mind. Everything else is stick and rudder. Keep the ball centered, bank and pull lightly. Just like I verbalise the relevant speeds (100 kts, and abort speed) during my take off roll (even though I am all by myself). It creates a flag in my head as to what to do if something happens past that stage of the take off.

I don't say to attempt a turn around if you get an engine faillure and you never did it before, however, practice it a few times in different conditions, make some mental references to which you can fall back when you prep for take off. That way, you can come up with a safe altitude for a turnback everytime. Easy.

Cat Driver wrote:So how long should it take to teach a safe turn back at altitude in a small trainer such as the Cessna 150/172?

I promise if it gains popularity it's going to lead to more dead guys than well trained ones.

Adam Oke wrote:But first, I'll ask -- What are the dangers associated with the turn back?

I really don't understand the purpose of this thread

Beefitarian wrote: I have to think, getting so caught up in trying to prove you can do it even if you can tell you missed that you continue until you crash, or your instructor inadvertently helps you crash by trying to take control while you're still making inputs which together cause a crash.
1 - Stall too close to the surface to recover from.
2 - Wing drop causing a loss of altitude resulting in contact with the surface.
3 - Obstruction strike, getting too close to an object that's in the unintended flight path as you're trying to fly back to the runway near it.

Adam Oke wrote:I would venture to guess that the dangerous factors in the equation is poor recognition of or little exposure to illusions, and illusions created by drift in low altitude scenarios.

Adam Oke wrote:You and I both know that if you pull the engine at altitude, these things won't happen when making a 180 degree turn.