Simulating IMC:

[Beefitarian]

., don't let this kind of thing get to you. You've probably had to show courage to fly as much as you did on more than a few occasions.

To the rest of the people here I am sorry but I just am not up to this as I have enough stress just trying to get my life together.

You don't need to explain but the fact that you did shows you're a good guy that does things right. I'm sorry but that's really rare. Just take your time and relax.

By the way I have no idea who he or she really is.

Don't let yourself get upset about things any imaginary internet monster says. Especially Hedley or me. You're a good guy with a lot of experience, hopfully you'll be strong enough to share it again sometime.

[Grantmac]

The last time I encountered a hood was during a Flight Instructor Flight Test. I was seating on the right side, wearing a hood and scanning the instrument located on the left side.

Maybe the TC examiner was doing an experiment on me.

Sounds like an experiment in neck fatigue!

P.S. Don't give up Cat, I stop reading here when you step away. Hell I'd like to see you write a blog or something where you can control what you want to deal with.

[Cat Driver]

Thanks Grantmac I fully understand how the internet forums work and decided to give it another go as therapy to help me in starting all over with life.

I explained my position a few weeks ago when I started posting here again, however it is not working as I am right back where I left off on this forum, fencing with shadows.

As long a people can snipe at others protected by anonymity I am not interested in any further discourse here.

I am betting B.P.F. would not use the same tactics if he/she were posting on a training forum where his/her identity were needed to qualify to use the site for giving advice.

He/she has no problem ranting on and on about how inefficient the instructing industry in Canada is and how professional he/she is....but let me make any comment and he/she is all over me...............and it all started over teaching on airplanes without brakes on the instructors side......which was part of the business when I started teaching, so to be an instructor you had to teach on those machines.

When I was teaching flying at the end of my career I had risen to a level that paid more per hour than FTU instructors make in a day and I don't need to defend myself here to people hiding behind made up names.

[Posthumane]

To guide the thread slowly back towards the initial topic...

The only relevant CARs reference I could find that might prevent the use of two stage amber is 523.775(e) which states:
(e) The windshield and side windows forward of the pilot's back when the pilot is seated in the normal flight position must have a luminous transmittance value of not less than 70 percent.
This means that you could put up an amber film, so long as it transmitted more than 70% light. However, that is a very weak tint and may not be enough to obscure your vision when wearing the blue glasses. When I was looking around at amber driving glasses and such, they typically have a luminous transmittance of about 15-20%. I imagine the same problem comes up with polarized window tint and orthogonally polarized glasses, since they probably would have a low transmittance as well.

So unfortunately it seems that it is in fact not allowed. I wonder if an exemption can be had for instrument training in day VFR conditions.

[Big Pistons Forever]

To guide the thread slowly back towards the initial topic...

The only relevant CARs reference I could find that might prevent the use of two stage amber is 523.775(e) which states:
(e) The windshield and side windows forward of the pilot's back when the pilot is seated in the normal flight position must have a luminous transmittance value of not less than 70 percent.
This means that you could put up an amber film, so long as it transmitted more than 70% light. However, that is a very weak tint and may not be enough to obscure your vision when wearing the blue glasses. When I was looking around at amber driving glasses and such, they typically have a luminous transmittance of about 15-20%. I imagine the same problem comes up with polarized window tint and orthogonally polarized glasses, since they probably would have a low transmittance as well.

So unfortunately it seems that it is in fact not allowed. I wonder if an exemption can be had for instrument training in day VFR conditions.

This rings a bell when I think back to what the TC inspector said when discussing this issue.

Posthumane: Good job on finding and posting the CAR's ref, I did not even think about looking in the Part 5 although in retrospect that would be the obvious place for the reg.

And cat Driver: Maybe you should lighten up. An expression of mild exasperation directed your way on an public internet forum doesn't have to be perceived as a mortal insult.........

[RenegadeAV8R]

This means that you could put up an amber film, so long as it transmitted more than 70% light. However, that is a very weak tint...

fact...

But a film of amber colored tint, when you just want the tint without the need of blocking light, will transmit how much percentage of light?

[KK7]

Wow. People need to RELAX.

This is a discussion forum where people come to DISCUSS things. I think everyone is being a little sensitive here. We all bring up points and you have to accept that people will argue these points, as a matter of DISCUSSION. If one posts something and expects everyone to simply agree, then I think they have an unrealistic expectation of what goes on here. Likewise if someone doesn't agree with a point that is raised, it should be argued without jabbing at the other personally. Lets all take a deep breath now and think about this. PLEASE!

I'm sorry but with all due respect to the awesome information both Cat and BPF provide on this forum, you're both kind of ruining it for the rest of us in this thread. I don't think anyone should run away, the majority appreciate the input that the BOTH of you have.

I'm not going to comment though on the actual subject besides agreeing that foggles are the most useless piece of equipment in the world, and should be only worn by disco attending folks as a point of unique style. As for their usefulness in aviation, actual IMC is really the best. I have never used two stage amber, or even heard of this system until now, and find it fascinating, and wondering why it really disappeared in favour of useless fuggles.

[Hedley]

I have never used two stage amber, or even heard of this system until now, and find it fascinating

This forum kicks @ss. Yes, there is the occasional dogfight, but the collective knowledge here is incredible. You won't find it anywhere else in Canada, IMHO.

Case in point was the weird Cherokee engine failure in the cold. I've been flying piston engines a long time, and this group taught me what the problem likely was, and increased my knowledge.

For free. That, my friends, kicks @ss. And might even be worth the occasional dogfight!

Meanwhile, for sheer entertainment's sake, check out Misc where I am accusing Niss of thinking too much. Not a typo. In fact, I virtually accused him of being an intelletual - and I wasn't joking. Honest. Now, where else are you going to find something like that?

[Beefitarian]

Is the two stage amber used anywhere else or was it only in Canada?

[Geko]

I think the two stage amber sounds absolutely brilliant. All I remember from my hood training was trying not to cheat.

[just curious]

I can't recall the amber film, but we use amber glasses for ski flying. Gets you over the 70% thing if you put it on a windscreen. When I did my rating, the instructor just hucked a map on the window. We lived.

I tried those foggle things with a couple students, then switched to training at night. Harder to make the transition to visual, and the references they were looking for from daytime flying weren't there. Seemed to be easier

[photofly]

But a film of amber colored tint, when you just want the tint without the need of blocking light, will transmit how much percentage of light?

That depends entirely on the tint of the goggles the pilot under instruction is wearing; since all the light from outside has to be blocked to him, the percentages of light blocked by the (amber) tinted window film and the percentage of light blocked by his (blue) goggles have to add up to 100%.

An amber filter is one that removes blue light; the blue goggles transmit only blue light. I guess it's up to you to decide where the cutoff frequency is going to be, and choose materials accordingly.

Presumably it's hard to make optical film filters with sharp cut-off frequencies (based on the filter curves given for threatrical lighting filters by Lee, Rosco et al) there's going to be some overlap and inefficiency too.

Is the two stage amber used anywhere else or was it only in Canada?

The only time I've seen it is in a very old FAA training video - so it was definitely in use in the US in times past.

[Cat Driver]

Seeing as I started this discussion I feel it is only fair that I end it from my perspective.

Two stage amber was " ONLY " vision limiting device we used when I received instrument flight instruction in the early to mid fifties.


The amber film in the windows made everything outside tinted amber and objects were sharper.

The pilot wearing the blue glasses only saw black when trying to look outside.

At the end of my career I was not asked to wear a hood during training at the Airbus factory in Toulouse because the simulator was programmed to depict whatever outside conditions were needed for the exercise.

Why is it that people who are ignorant of a given subject seem to be compelled to question the validity of the subject so strenuously even when the person describing said subject explains it clearly?

Anyhow I am long past trying to give advice here because the group is quite small and many have a closed mind to anything except the Canadian FTU way of training.

Maybe that is why your earnings are frozen at a level that is near poverty?

[fish4life]

Maybe that is why your earnings are frozen at a level that is near poverty?

Cat cmon man, that's not like you to attack someone in that sense, besides if someone loves the type of flying they do who cares what they make. Like a lot of guys are saying more and more lifestyle is everything (granted lifestyle on instructor wages might not be glamorous) so who cares about the money made

[fish4life]

on a side note this 2 stage amber would have been interesting to try out for sure, the "hood" that people wear is useless I've heard of multiple people "cheating" to make sure they are lined up properly for the runway on an approach before and it's sad because they are really just cheating themselves because when the weather actually drops on them they won't be able to just look up and make sure they are lined up.

[trey kule]

I have had some experience many moons ago with the amber system. It was expensive. Had to be taken out and put in, which was a chore..The hoodies and then foggles were easier.
The last IF rating ride I did in Canada was years ago but I wore a baseball cap, and have been doing that for a few years previously.

And while we are on the whole training digression, when I learned to do IFR, my sim was done in a link trainer. Anybody who does not think the current FTD's and Sims are not better needs to get a grip on reality. The new generation of sims provides excellent simulation for IFR training, and a student does not have to get into the airplane until they are comfortable and competent in basic flying, procedures, and abnormal events.. A serious and welcome improvement on IFR training, in my opinion.

We did a few things in training in the past with regard to some basic flying skills, which I sense today have somehow being replaced by emphasis on procedures and sop's rather than common sense and thinking. But then there have been some amazing improvements also (sims, as above) and lets face it, airplanes and the way they are flown have changed, and will continue to change. To many of us old guys like to throw fear into the youngins by posting what will happen if the GPS breaks? You will surely die because you never had the opportunity to get lost using your own skills....

To get back to the original topic..Amber...shmaber...The new sims do it all, and when you get in the airplane it should not be about keeping it right side up.

Lastly, as I am writing a novel here, the whole idea of training in actual IFR is great...in theory. The challange I see, is for insturctors to have enough experience to be comfortable letting s tudent charge around in the clag without interferring to much. One of the oddest things that the fixed wing FTUs could learn from is that there is (or was) a great number of helicopter instructors who started instructing after they had thousands of hours of real world time..That probably has changed but they did provide excellent instruction.

I have taken the same postion as JC for training in flight..do it at night. And for the night rating IF training, the student can actually save some money on the overall rating.

[Cat Driver]

Cat cmon man, that's not like you to attack someone in that sense, besides if someone loves the type of flying they do who cares what they make. Like a lot of guys are saying more and more lifestyle is everything (granted lifestyle on instructor wages might not be glamorous) so who cares about the money made.

I am not attacking " someone "

I am pointing out that flight instruction generally pays very poor wages.

Why should quality not be affected in teaching flying due to the inability to earn a fair wage?

Or is teaching flying a " fun " thing and therefore not all that important?

[KK7]

Cat, I don't want you to take this personally, but I think sometimes you open up yourself attack simply because you lack a certain amount of tact when you participate in a discussion. You always bring up EXCELLENT points, and I say this sincerely. But sometimes you present your ideas in such a fashion that it puts down everyone else, or makes some of us feel ashamed that I am a younger less experienced pilot. We all have to start somewhere, and myself and I think most of us, are trying to make do the best we can in a broken system. We'd all like to see improvements and we'd all like to help, but at the end of the day I make a good living doing something I love doing.

I want to emphasize, I am not saying I don't learn anything from what you say, I do, but I'd enjoy reading it much more I didn't always feel put down by some of your remarks. I don't think I ever did anything to you to deserve it.

Maybe that is why your earnings are frozen at a level that is near poverty?

"Maybe this is why flight instruction pays so little" would be a more tactful to say the same thing without putting down every single person including the ones who try to contribute positively.

[Cat Driver]

What you are suggesting is I should sugar coat the issue rather than point out the obvious?

Each individual has to make their own decision as to what they want to do in life, if one chooses a profession ( which flight instruction is. ) that generally speaking pays so poorly one can barely make ends meet does that change the fact the profession rewards you poorly money wise?

I am not aiming my comments at individuals but at the industry as a whole.

ONCE AGAIN PLEASE GO BACK AND READ THE MANY TIMES I HAVE STATED THAT FLIGHT INSTRUCTION IS THE HIGHEST OCCUPATION A PILOT CAN STRIVE FOR.

SO WHY SHOULDN'T IT PAY ACCORDINGLY?

[trey kule]

I am with Hedley on this forum. (geez...did I just think that or actually write it?)
There are some interesting reads. One of the things I notice being an old guy, is that I am no longer up to speed on some of the smaller aircraft type issues, and have to rely on a rather daily deteriorating brain to recall some things I know I used to know. If there is one thing in todays training that could be improved is the reduction of the use of acronoyms. AME..used to mean aircraft maintenance engineer. I read awhile back in a tc safety letter..It now apparently means Aviation medical examiner..Old guys cant keep up with that.

Now what were we talking about....oh yeah, Homer Simpson and drinking in the little black box

It would be nice if we could discuss issues without attacking other people , either individually or collectively though. (And yes, I see the irony in my posting that),

As to your question Cat, I dont think good manners and sensitivity for other people's feelings is sugar coating. And on the other hand, I think some people like to make the claim that they tell it as it is as justification for being rather nasty and obnoxious. As someone mentioned, there are different ways to get your point accross , and if the way you are using is not working, you have to change your approach..after all, is that not what a good instructor would do?

[Cat Driver]

I am well aware that I am seen by many as nasty and obnoxious in this forum.

The weird thing is why was I so successful working in the flight training field if I was nasty and obnoxious?

Part of the problem may be I am not suited for this type of communication mode..internet communication.

As I have already stated once I decide I am finished with this thread I am trough with the flight instructor forum as it is just not working for either me or some of you.

[Hedley]

I am seen by many as nasty and obnoxious in this forum

meh. Not everyone loves me as much as they should either, .!

Life isn't a popularity contest. At least it isn't for me. I'm not running for student council president So if some people like me, and some don't, well, I guess that will have to do.

I am brutally honest - you should see the IAC list right now - and I strive for 100% technical accuracy. That's what's important to me - not my popularity in some Angus-Reid poll!

The good thing about the internet, ., is that everyone has a voice. The bad thing about the internet is that everyone has a voice. You have to learn to filter. Reading the internet is like panning for gold.

[Cat Driver]

Yes, Hedley I am very well aware of how this media works.

However like everything else in life we have to weigh the pluses and minuses of each area of life we participate in.

For me the minuses out weigh the pluses in this group, due to my not having the right attitude.

We are planning on doing that trip to Newfoundland in the Husky Amphib. that we missed last summer due to Pene's illness. You will be impressed with the control harmony in the Husky...it will make you want to aerobat it.

Will drop in and spend a night or two at your airport.....the plan is to do the trip in June.

[Beefitarian]

Here's part of what I'm doing here.
I can relate to this statement a lot.

One of the things I notice being an old guy, is that I am no longer up to speed on some of the smaller aircraft type issues, and have to rely on a rather daily deteriorating brain to recall some things I know I used to know.

So couple that with the fact that I don't get a chance to talk to actual pilots anymore, can't afford the dual I need and can't seem to sit down with a cup of hot beverage and the stack of books I should read. I'm having difficulty passing a PSTAR. Pretty shamefull and embarasing really.

So after lurking here for a while I joined up.

. go back to talking to people in real life or you're going to end up like me. I can't have a conversation anymore because I can't pay attention for 2 minutes.

[RenegadeAV8R]

The Two Stage Amber system had been discussed more than 3 years ago.

You will even find some pictures there.

Post subject: Two Stage Amber
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=31749&view=next


BTW, I totally agree with Cat Driver point of view; and I am pretty sure that I am not the only one.

In (Canadian) french, we have an expression that I would translate as "If the hat fits you; wear it" (I don't know if there is something similar in English). That could explain why some people *feel* being attacked.

Humans can only tolerate a small dose of reality at once. And when confronted to a larger dose; they try to shoot the messenger.