Becoming a pilot- Is it really that bad?

[niss]

paying all that money i might cut my balls off.

I would double check with the other pilots here but that may actually qualify as 'paying your dues' and there for you may get less flack if you bought a PPC.

[Bobby868]

1) Is it really THAT bad?
2) This might be the most important decision of my life and
3) as long as i can make a living out of it i will push through
4) because this is what i love.

1) What other careers have you investigated? Of those careers how many had as negative view by their own professionals??? (in short you know the answer already, yes it’s bad) Some pilots will say it's not so bad (most of those will be flight instructors, guess why they want you to believe that?). The large percentage of the current pilots will tell you it's bad on many levels.

2) Yes it is a very big descion. Many pilots don’t ask don’t investigate and believe all the hype at the flying school. They drop $45000-$70000 only to discover after the fact that they now have a 5% chance of getting a job in aviation (most likely on the ramp not in a plane). Thank god one potential pilot came on here and asked before he started training. Good on you. If you're smart enough to ask before you start your training you may be smart enough to get a real job doing something else. Get your PPL license, buy a plane and fly for fun on the weekends.

3) "IF" you get a job you won't make enough to support your family for a long time (10 years is a number I'm throwing out there) after that it won’t be much more than bare support. Some airlines do pay better than others but very very few “working pilots” make it into the airlines, further even the good airlines are cutting back on their top salaries. Plus you'll be living in shit hole places that no self respecting woman would want to live or raise her children in.

4) You, like all of us are in love with a fantasy. You've never been a pilot so how can you say you're in love with it? (Again there is a big difference between loving to fly and loving to be a career pilot. Every pilot on here will agree they love to fly. But being a pilot as a career is not the same. ) It's like seeing that supper hot woman on tv and saying you're in love with her. You've never met her, the chances of you meeting her are almost zero. You go to the gym and the guy there sells you a super expensive membership and tells you just work hard and get in good shape and you will have a chance but it's all a line just to get you to buy a membership. And if you did meet her and spent any time with her you would discover that under her sexy skin is nasty, shitty attitude that kicks you in the balls every time you look her way.

Can it be done??? Yes. Obviously there are some jobs out there and some pilots get hired(Hey some guys get the girl too, but ask your self are you Brad Pit? do you seriously have a chance of competing?). Just keep this in mind, for every job there are thousands of unemployed pilots applying. Are you willing to work harder than those thousads? Are you will to work for less than every one of those pilots? Are you willing to sacrifice relationships, friends, family, In order to become a pilot it?

If the answer is no, good on you, but you won’t get a job, if the answer is yes to the above questions then you’re part of the problem in aviation. So it’s a no win scenario.

[LousyFisherman]

Right know what I think im going to do is get my PPL (11k <--- F the price.) ( i live in Calgary so any information regarding what flight school/ college is better to do this is appreciated)

11K for a PPL in Calgary? ho, ho, ho ho ROTFLMAO.
Better budget 16K unless you already know a good high time instructor.

It may not take the whole 16K but it will be a lot more than 11K

Which school depends on how often you fly and how far you are willing to travel.

YMMV
LF

[iflyforpie]

I like BPF's advice about getting something to fall back on first. Perhaps get an AME licence while flying.

That's what I did but I am not sure if I would recommend it. I started training to be an AME at 19, spending two solid years at trade school (I did get a grant which covered the tuition costs) with no chance to fly. Out of school I was dragged off the street in my home town to go work for KFC during which time I paid for a PPL cash. Post 9/11, I got laid off and went to work for a flight school, getting my CPL for a company discount plus a few free hours ferrying and rescuing airplanes.

CPL signed off on the 100th anniversary of powered flight, AME M1 licence the following February, bought my first house in March, welcomed my son into the world in April, flew my first operational flight with the same company in May. Then things all went for a shat. Because I had a family and mortgage and a handy AME license, contracting at $35/hr full-time starting yesterday was better than getting $20/hr flight hours only for the instructing job.

Waited two years on the ground, but because of the networking I did at KFC, I got my current job at a decent salary doing both fixing and flying. But again, I can't really go to a full-time flying job because the pay-cut is so huge and the lifestyles sound great for a single guy who wants to explore the north or travel the world, but not for a father of two. I don't plan on advancing my career unless the situation warrants it.

The other problem with having an AME and CPL is it's putting all your eggs in one basket, the very shaky one that is aviation. You can use an MBA or a BSc anywhere. Even a BA will at least prove to an employer that you had the gumption to do four years of study and that at one time you could think critically.

[chipmunk]

What about joining the military reserves? Great part time job, & decent money. If you are able to find full time work, in the reserves every summer, it's possible to clear a decent amount of cash (for me it was between 10-15K, 10 years or so ago.) During the year, I also was able to find a few Class A temp jobs (living in Ottawa was a huge advantage to find these jobs, admittedly) which funded my flying during the year. Mind you, it took me some time to eventually get my instructor rating and start to reverse the cash flow, but I ended up with very little debt and being that this was around 9/11, I wasn't in a hurry.

Another thing that helped was putting off my multi & multi-IFR until I became more competitive in what little job market there was at that time -- 2003/2004 was a tough time for low timers. At 1000 hrs, my hands and feet were way better, plus I was doing IFR instruction with my Group 3 - so, doing the multi & multi IFR was a piece of cake (less than 9h multi total = cheap.)

This industry is tough. It is so cyclical that you won't know what the job market is like until you are job hunting. You might see a friend slip easily into the right seat of a Navajo with 300h, and then when you finish 6 months later, you may end up working the ramp for several years - long, exhausting days, awful pay, living in a crowded apartment (or with the parents), trying to scrimp and save for the next time your crappy car breaks down.

When you do get that coveted right seat job, it's not glitz and glamour either. You'll still have long, exhausting days, you'll still be living in a crowded apartment or crew house far away from where the majority of Canadians live, and still be trying to save your money to fix your crappy car. The pay will be a little better, but not that much.

When you get a little more experience, the job conditions and pay can get better. You'll still be working away from the big city, and you'll still have long days, but you may afford to buy a better car. If the airlines are your goal, you'll still have no idea until the time comes how many hours you'll need before you possibly get an interview. It always changes.

Everyone's story is different and you won't know what yours will be until the time comes, but bottom line - you need to have a way to pay the bills and minimize your debt as you get into it.

Good luck.

[ant_321]

im not really sure where you guys are hearing 70k for a commercial license. IMO if you paid that either you were lazy and had to pay for missed flights, etc. or you were ripped off royally. I did my CPL and multi for less than 25K, post private. Yes I was a cadidiot.

[Beefitarian]

My 02 cents

Get a marketable university degree or a recognized trade certification (eg electrician) first. Work on your flying qualifications as you can afford it.

Uh? Yes this is a perfect plan. That way you can get a Journeman's Electrical license that you never wanted, have a house, two kids, a wife or a couple of wives, a Harley, a nice truck and half a CPL.

Worked for me.

[PunkStarStudios]

Do it for fun, don't do it as a career.

[Andres9123]

I suggest buying a C150 or something like that and getting a good class 1 or 2 instructor. You will save money and after you are done, you can sell the airplane if you like for a similar price as what you paid for it. Do some research before you buy an airplane though. If you're inclined towards floats spend the money on a float plane (a Champ or so would be excellent) and build 200 hrs that way.

What are the approximate maintenance/operational costs, say to achieve 500 hours? Will i really save money having my own plane?

[Beefitarian]

As long as you can afford to buy the plane you should be able to save a little plus you can get some back when you sell it if you looked after it.

You also might not be able to spell Journeyman if you get a trade but you should be able to buy a Harley as long as they keep building things. Be a plumber if you want a job you hate, they get treated better from what I've seen ie. more money for flying, don't worry in new construction there isn't any sewage in the pipes yet.

[Andres9123]

the fact that they now have a 5% chance of getting a job in aviation (most likely on the ramp not in a plane).

Where did you get this number from?

[Andres9123]

http://www.mtroyal.ca/ProgramsCourses/F ... /index.htm
http://www.calgaryflight.com/Tranings.p ... =cpLicense

Here's where ive gotten my numbers from.

[chinglish]

Quote: "It's like seeing that supper hot woman on tv and saying you're in love with her. You've never met her, the chances of you meeting her are almost zero. You go to the gym and the guy there sells you a super expensive membership and tells you just work hard and get in good shape and you will have a chance but it's all a line just to get you to buy a membership. And if you did meet her and spent any time with her you would discover that under her sexy skin is nasty, shitty attitude that kicks you in the balls every time you look her way." - That's awesome!!!

I think its safe to say that most pilots love flying. The thing is, doing something that you love to do for work does kind of take the fun out of it. Eventually the love fades and you need to be able to transition your previous love into what it is...just a job. Work to live don't live to work.

I'm with the guys that are saying if you have to ask you already know the answer.

P.S. No one knows what the market will be like when you finish. You might get lucky and walk right into a job or you might have to give your balls away...

[Beefitarian]

Don't forget to check out springbank and Okatoks. I quite like Okatoks and the CFI seems like a solid guy to me.

Go to the schools and bother everyone you can, talk to the instructors. Take some fam flights and buy a log book to record them if you want, if an instructor doesn't want to help you figure out how to do that, what else will they not want to help with? Even if you go to someone else's favorite place, if you don't get along with them, go elsewhere. It's your money and training find the flight training unit that feels right for you.

Looking at a website doesn't tell you much. Some don't even have hourly rates, how do we know how much it costs to rent the DA-40?

Flying isn't super difficult but there's a lot to it. If you're going to work and pay for it. Highly reccomended so you don't have that giant debt later. Save up for a while first. Study hard and maybe take ground school and some flights while you are working. When you have a couple thousand dollars saved just for flying, (ten thousand would be best for a start on PPL, you might be able to finish for that amount) then try to take some time to fly everyday. Never put money on account.

Keep it in your own bank account. Then if you don't like what's going on in your flying school you can leave. I know a guy that got his PPL and then decided commercial flying would be boring, just doing proceedures etc good thing he never paid ahead for a CPL.

I compare flight training to paddling up stream, when you stop you'll float down stream and have to paddle up the same part all over again. Try to fly at least once every week once you're started the training daily is better you'll learn so much faster.

The good part of getting a plumbing apprenticship (electrical if you have to) is you can usually find jobs that have tons of hours for a project make lots of money then get laid off and go flying with that money. The bad part is you might notice you have lots of money and blow it on stupid crap like houses and motorcycles. Those eat up flying money. Or if you're lucky enough to never get hit by a prop yet unlucky enough to find a woman you think you like, you might marry her, then the rules change and you don't work out of town anymore and the house and Harley payments take all the flying money away and you have gone 4 or 5 years without flying more than a couple house dual.

Find any job you like enough to go to, take as much of the money as possible and fly with it. If you get a chance to buy a plane do it. If not rent as much as you can. Once you have a CPL try to find any job flying. If the money sucks that's one thing you have to decide, is this job worth the pay. If you hate it and the money sucks find a different one. Don't let me tell you if your job sucks, conversley don't let your boss tell you it's the only one you'll get. What's the point of having any job that makes you want to cut your balls off? Even if you get to fly an airplane.

[Andres9123]

What's the point of having any job that makes you want to cut your balls off? Even if you get to fly an airplane.

As long as im flying that wont happen. But yes, i am going to get a fall back career save up and start getting my licenses when i have enough money to continuously get my PPL and CPL. I wanna do it continuously because i know that when you stop flying for a while you may have to repeat lessons which is a waste of money. Once i get my CPL then i can start looking for a job as a pilot. Another question, is it worth it to get an instructor rating?

[Beefitarian]

What's the point of having any job that makes you want to cut your balls off? Even if you get to fly an airplane.

As long as im flying that wont happen.

Well I don't understand why you started the thread then.

I thought you had read about the guys here that felt that way and wanted to be set straight. I don't know how many there are but there most certainly are some flying jobs out there that are that bad. The only reason guys work them is out of fear they will have to either give up flying and or default on their debt and then be unable to get another flying job. Have a nice week.

[Beefitarian]

Another question, is it worth it to get an instructor rating?

You can't legally be an instructor without it.

[Expat]

My 02 cents

Get a marketable university degree or a recognized trade certification (eg electrician) first. Work on your flying qualifications as you can afford it. That is what I did, I was 27 when I started my first commercial flying job(instructing). I was debt free and had two other marketable skills which would allow me to earn a good living outside of aviation. Because I had those skills I could be choosy about what flying jobs I would accept and the ability to quit bad jobs. I walked out the door on two operators, one run by a total a**hole and the other that continually pushed me to do unsafe things.

Best advice so far. It is not only about a job, or even a career. What you are asking now are questions about your life. The remainer of your life will depend on the decisions you take now. Forget your love of flying. Get yourself some education that will make you marketable in life. Flying is a dream, a passion, but it is not guaranteed to put bread on the table, especially, if you become unfit to fly, or have a preventable accident... putting all your eggs in one basket is looking for trouble down the road. I, for one wanted to fly, but fate had it another way. I am in my third fantastic career now, and I flew for my pleasure, when I wanted, and when I could afford it.
Get education...

[Bobby868]

http://www.mtroyal.ca/ProgramsCourses/F ... /index.htm
http://www.calgaryflight.com/Tranings.p ... =cpLicense

Here's where ive gotten my numbers from.

I got my numbers from 20 years of experience in he industry both as a flight instructor and bush pilot. I work in the north, you know the place everyone tells you to go to get that job. I do the hiring and I see all the resumes that come in for that one position. That's where my numbers and perspective comes from.

I see you got your numbers from flight school websites. Go figure they are all rosie.

I think a big issue with flight schools is that from grade 1 on we develope a respect for teachers and the educational institution. We generally believe our teachers and expect them to give us honest and straight forward advice. Flight schools take advantage of this trust and students unknowingly believe everything that some desperate flight instructor / flight school will tell them.

[Andres9123]

I was not talking about the numbers about the cost. I know is always more than what is shown in those pages. I mean that 5% employment number you threw there. Is that nationally or from you personal experience?

[FortunateSun]

I became a pilot right out of the gates in high school and honestly it was a fantastic experience until about 8 years into it. What happened is that I realized that flying was all I knew and it started becoming extremely frustrating especially when all it started becoming was chasing a bigger airplane and a better job. What I thought to be a better job anyway. Now I've been out of it for a while and have taken the time to learn a variety of trades and I'm a much better person for it. There are sacrifices you will have to make but ensure that it's not your family. There are time's where you will be frustrated but don't let it get you down just enjoy the ride. If I were to do it again the only thing I would recommend is that you make sure you know where you want to end. You need a goal (That may change over time so you'll obviously have to adjust to that). Take some time off after school, work and learn as much as you can, save as much as you can then get into a college program. You'll have a great time learn a lot and make some amazing friends. Your young enjoy it and don't get wrapped up in the hoop law. I did and had to take a step back to re-evaluate. Now I know where I want to be though and that makes all the difference in the world.

Good luck.

[Bede]

I suggest buying a C150 or something like that and getting a good class 1 or 2 instructor. You will save money and after you are done, you can sell the airplane if you like for a similar price as what you paid for it. Do some research before you buy an airplane though. If you're inclined towards floats spend the money on a float plane (a Champ or so would be excellent) and build 200 hrs that way.

What are the approximate maintenance/operational costs, say to achieve 500 hours? Will i really save money having my own plane?

That all depends on if you buy an airplane properly. Set an airplane budget, then buy the best maintained airplane for the price. Have a trusted AME look at it before you buy (yes this will cost $).

Operating costs:
Maintenance - $2000/yr pretty much regardless how much you fly, so fly lots
Fuel $35/hr
Overhaul reserve $10/hr

It worked for me.

[Andres9123]

Operating costs:
Maintenance - $2000/yr pretty much regardless how much you fly, so fly lots
Fuel $35/hr
Overhaul reserve $10/hr

It worked for me.

K that seems ok but i still have to pay for instructor and would still have to go to school for CPL multi-engine Intrument/ instructor ratings. Wouldnt i?

[burhead1]

Operating costs:
Maintenance - $2000/yr pretty much regardless how much you fly, so fly lots
Fuel $35/hr
Overhaul reserve $10/hr

It worked for me.

K that seems ok but i still have to pay for instructor and would still have to go to school for CPL multi-engine Intrument/ instructor ratings. Wouldnt i?

you can do all the flying you want, you will still have to pay a instructor. Not sure what they are charging now $45hr?? you can build your time get some good experience and in a lot of cases you can rent you plane to the local flight school. When your done keep it and have fun or sell it for the same as what you paid for it. If your lucky sell it for more.

[Andres9123]

Thanks everybody. Every bit of information helps!