Pilot-in-Command under Supervision

[flying4dollars]

Worse still, have you ever had an insurance adjuster go through your logbook after a claim has been filed?

That's where lying about a lousy 30 hours or so of training really becomes an issue.

The Old Fogducker

I don't necessarily see it as lying. If you're occupying the left seat during line-indoc, then you're making the decisions and acting like you're the PIC. Your indoc captain may have final say, so you could count that as PIC-US, which I believe goes in the SIC column even if you're indoc'ing as a captain. But I know many people who have logged it as captain, because after doing a ride and doing line indoc, you're a captain.

Also, I think the insurance adjusters with go through the journey log, not your personal logbook. I could be wrong, but I'm assuming this is their protocol.

[The Old Fogducker]

Then you've never been through a serious matter with an insurance company ... the Journey log, the personal log, the published shift schedule, testimony of the Ops Mgr and Chief Pilot all come into play to determine who was designated as the Pilot In Command.

Unlike the USA, where there may be more than one person logging PIC time based upon who manipulated the controls of the aircraft, in Canada there is only one Pilot In Command .... the person designated and delegated by company managerial staff as the sole person responsible for the flight.

The Old (stick in the mud) Fogducker

[ahramin]

Quick question regarding logging of PIC U/S towards your total time...I'm an FO working my way up, and just on the border of applying for the ATPL. Does the time logged as PIC under supevision count as PIC (1:1), or is it counted as regular co-pilot time (2:1), with 100 hours credited towards your PIC requirement?

Thanks

Depends on when you logged the time and when you submit the application.

421.10 Crediting of Flight Time Acquired by a Co-pilot

The holder of a pilot licence may be credited not more than 50% of co-pilot flight time towards the total flight time required for the issuance of a higher class of pilot licence.
(amended 1998/12/01; previous version)

421.11 Airline Transport Licence Training (Pilot-in-command Under Supervision)
(amended 1998/12/01; previous version)

(1) All air operators using large aeroplanes may institute programs of supervision to allow co-pilots to credit flight time as pilot-in-command time.

(2) Air operators using small aeroplanes and Air operators using helicopters may institute a program of supervision referred to in subsection (1) provided that they have received authorization to do so from the Minister based on the operator’s ability to institute such a program in a safe and effective manner.

(3) The training program shall be conducted in accordance with the following:

(a) the operator shall ensure that the supervisory pilots are briefed on these procedures by the Minister; and

(b) the pilot-in-command under supervision flight time may be acquired in the co-pilot's seat provided the pilot-in-command functions described in clauses (i) and (ii) can be performed from the seat. Otherwise, the pilot-in-command under supervision flight time shall include a minimum of ten hours in the pilot-in-command seat. The pilot-in-command under supervision flight time shall include:
(amended 1998/12/01; previous version)

(i) with the exception of taxiing, at least all the flight functions of a pilot-in-command including flight planning, takeoff, landing, en route flying and approach; and

(ii) a minimum of one takeoff and one landing for each ten hours of flight time.

(4) The conditions for crediting an applicant's flight time are as follows:
(amended 1998/12/01; no previous version)

(a) An applicant for an Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Aeroplane shall be given credit for up to 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time under supervision, provided the applicant:

(i) holds a Commercial Pilot Licence - Aeroplane with a multi-engine rating and the aeroplane type rating in which the flight time is acquired;

(ii) has a Group I instrument rating; and

(iii) has accumulated a minimum of 150 hours pilot-in-command flight time in aeroplanes.

(b) An applicant for an Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Helicopter shall be given credit for up to 150 hours of pilot-in-command flight time under supervision, provided the applicant:

(i) holds a Commercial Pilot Licence - Helicopter with the helicopter type rating in which the flight time is acquired; and

(ii) has accumulated a minimum of 100 hours pilot-in- command flight time in helicopters.

(5) An applicant shall be credited flight time as follows:
(amended 1998/12/01; no previous version)

(a) not more than 50% of the pilot-in-command under supervision flight time for a total of up to 100 hours in the case of an Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Aeroplane and up to 150 hours in the case of an Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Helicopter may be credited toward pilot-in-command experience requirements; and

(b) Pilot-in-command under supervision flight time, provided such flight time is acquired within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence for which the flight time is to be credited.

(6) When an application for an Airline Transport Pilot Licence is based in part on pilot-in-command under supervision flight time, the applicant shall:
(amended 1998/12/01; no previous version)

(a) submit a personal log or other reliable record that contains a summary of the pilot-in-command under supervision flight time and the number of takeoffs and landings; and

(b) enter a notation on the application form showing the portion of pilot-in-command flight time that was done under supervision.

If you want to be a good second in command, you need to learn how to look things up in the CARs and understand them. If you want to be a captain, same deal (unless you always have good second in commands).

[old fart]

OK -- This is really, really simple. Quit trying to split imaginary hairs or invent reasons to put Command time in a logbook. Believe me, it is very simple to spot when TC looks through your logbook during your ATPL application. I know this first hand from processing these applications during my time in purgatory (TC). As soon as you see this type of crap, then the glasses come out to have a real close look at your application. I had some applicants who went out of their way to make my life easy by having a nice clear breakdown of their hours. One gentleman did his best to separate his cargo/passenger hours on a twin otter since in some config's an F/O was required and in others the company ops said it was single pilot. He even brought in copies of the ops pages showing the times when an F/O was needed or not. My first impression of this gentleman was that he was honest and not trying to fool anyone and likely had no parker pen time in his logbook. His application was approved very quickly.
Now the real simple part. Their can only be one Pilot in Command. Anyone else -- Pilot in Command Under Supervision, F/O who completed a Captain's PPC, Pilot being Line indoced in the Captain position - none of these are Pilot in Command. If you are Pilot in Command, then you are the one signing the logbook in the PIC position. If someone else signed that spot, then they are the one and only PIC. Simple.
I was looking through the logbook on the aircraft I was flying a few days ago and saw that 2 Captains had flown together. They did the proper thing - 2 logbook pages instead of one. One was PIC on the first leg and the other was PIC on the second leg. They would both have a PIC and an F/O entry in their personal logs for that day.

So quit trying to invent new ways of logging PIC. It's fibbing if you do and TC, Insurance companies and potential employers don't like it. Have a logbook you can be proud of --- an accurate, honest logbook.

While I am venting about this, let me tell you that what you put in a logbook can also bite someone else. I had one gentleman came in with dual hours in a logbook and they were attained on a twin engine aircraft being operated in a commercial air service and he was not employed by them. This could have got his friend and the company in some very hot water.
Bottom line - log what is legal and log it honestly and you will never have to worry.

[trey kule]

Bottom line - log what is legal and log it honestly and you will never have to worry

Boy is that a buzz-kill for the career streamers...After all, if you put it in the logbook, you have experience

Seriously, that was a great post

I wonder how may will learn from it?

[Ref Plus 10]

Ahramin, thanks for that. I have looked it up many times, I have no problem with that, I was a little confused on whether the PIC under the supervision program was credited as 1:1 (100 hours of PIC U/S count 100 PIC), or 2:1 as a regular co-pilot (200 PICU/S count 100 PIC). Thanks again.

[Wacko]

Resurrection!

OK, is PIC US only applicable to the ATPL? The reason I ask is because sometimes you need XXX multi-pic and XX multi-pic on TYPE (Contrails and the like come to mind).

Say you're in the right seat of a Dash 8 where you need 150 PIC on type... assuming your company is approved for PIC US do both pilots log the hours as PIC with one noting it is US?

Note: this has NOTHING to do with and ATPL both pilots hold an ATPL.

[ahramin]

In the CARs, PIC US applies to co-pilots for the purpose of legally logging PIC time that counts towards an ATPL. You won't find anything in the CARs that allows you to log time towards Contrail requirements. I would suggest you call the nutcase who pulls the Contrail requirements out of the magic box and ask him if he would allow x hours of co-pilot time on type as PIC time if it's done as part of the upgrade process by a line-indoc captain. He might say yes.

[trey kule]

I would suggest you call the nutcase who pulls the Contrail requirements out of the magic box

You know, some years ago, I asked Contrail guy about this.. In a much nicer manner than calling someone a nutcase like you did, but I guess you figure that is OK. He actually went through with me how they come up with their numbers..They are not pulled out of a magic box. But they do seem to put the brakes on some pilots who think that they dont need experience...they can fly anything . And anyone who disagrees in a nutcase.. I love the internet.

Now to the resurrecter around Easter time....As old fart so clearly put it...Only one signature goes in the PIC column at the end of the flight...It is really not a hard concept. As to your company having PIC/US; it is up to the company to do that, not the whim of a pilot or two. The company should be pairing a PIC/US with an experienced pilot who understands what they are to do so that at the end of the supervision, the almost new Captain has things down pat and the way the company wants.

With all the creative ways being sought for the streamers who do not have suffiecient PIC time and think that it is only about trying to get it into the logbook somehow, I can see that TC, if they are not already, are going to be going through logbooks with a fine tooth comb, before another of these types kills some people...And I do mean another...

[Rockie]

OK. Sorry to be dense but now I am confused.

What does an upgrade candidate doing initial Line Indoc log his time as?

An upgrade candidate doing initial line indoctrination is not qualified until they successfully complete a line check. They log SIC and the LITC logs PIC.

Simple.

[Wacko]

I may have worded the question wrong. There are stricter guidelines then Contrails.. someone posted "Devon"? In any case, the question was not really to scam the system. I don't follow the various requirements too closely but it makes little sense to me that someone with 500 PIC in a Navajo is more qualified to fly left seat on say a King Air then a guy with 460 PIC in a Navajo and 1000 hours on say a Dash 8.