Medivac call-signs

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tca
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Re: Medivac call-signs

Post by tca »

bigsky wrote:
I agree with those that state it is not the pilots job to determine the status. If you are hired for emergency medical transportation, then you should use MEDEVAC.
And this is exactly the abuse of the system mentioned earlier! Nobody ever said it was the pilot's job to determine the status; that's why there's a medical crew in the back. If my medic says we are medevac, then I file accordingly. If s/he doesn't specify that we require priority, then no medevac call sign. It's simple! And yes, that status can change mid flight, but that's easily solved by simple communication.

As for the idea that pilots shouldn't know anything about patient status to avoid heroics: I am a professional and I fly the same way regardless of who's on board! I won't bust minima for anyone, and nobody has ever faulted me for it! Sure somebody's life may be in risk if I don't land, but that is better than putting my whole crew and any other passengers' lives at risk by "ducking down to have a look".

And the argument that you should file medevac because air ambulance flights don't get charged certain fees: If it's not priorty why not file under a non medevac call sign and if somebody does try to charge you fees, there is bound to be some sort of documentation somewhere (in the hundred pounds of paperwork that goes along with any flight!) that proves you were a legitimate air ambulance.
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Re: Medivac call-signs

Post by r22captain »

ArcticKat wrote:
Tim wrote:we use medevac everywhere we go, patient or not, if there is a medical team on board. there is only 1 team for adults and 1 team for children in NS/PEI on call at a given time. the logic is we have the only team on board so our goal is to get them back to base and resupplied ASAP should another call come.
That's a pretty irresponsible use of the designation IMHO. By that logic, every town with only one ambulance, of which there are many, would have them driving around with lights and sirens on everywhere they go just to make sure they get back to their area quickly. Perhaps not quite so dangerous in the air where you're just given priority sequence, but still.....
Tim isn't totally out of whack (assuming he works for PAL)
With a FW if you either on your way to get a pax or bringing one back, then that would warrant us of medevac would it not? pretty sure the ambulance goes to the scene with the lights on, then to the hospital with the lights on. OR on their way to Tim Horton's.

Now if they are coming back to the base with no patient for whatever reason, you shouldn't be using Medevac just because they are the only team. I fly the RW in NS and we don't do that coming back from a hospital to the base with no patient. Now if another call comes in during that time period then it's a different story and the game plan changes.
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ArcticKat
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Re: Medivac call-signs

Post by ArcticKat »

bigsky wrote: ?? What if you are empty going to get the patient?? I think you are still MEDEVAC status.

I agree with those that state it is not the pilots job to determine the status. If you are hired for emergency medical transportation, then you should use MEDEVAC.
r22captain wrote: pretty sure the ambulance goes to the scene with the lights on, then to the hospital with the lights on. OR on their way to Tim Horton's.
I'm pretty sure you're wrong, but I can understand how those without exposure to the real world of EMS can have their perception skewed by the Hollywood dramatizations. For those of you who have actually done a Medevac run, please respond to this...How many times have you flown to get a patient and your crew was the only medical crew on scene? I will bet that with the exception of SAR that almost no helicopter medevac and absolutely no fixed wing have arrived to pick up a patient who has not already been receiving medical care from a qualified professional. These medical professionals are quite capable of determining the severity of the situation and to inform the dispatch centre of the details.

Ambulance dispatch centres use a tool called the Medical Priority Dispatch System, MPDS, this system is used to improve safety and patient outcomes by evaluating how serious the condition of the patient is over the phone and sending the ambulance using the appropriate emergency response. Many times, an ambulance will drive to the location and to the hospital without lights and sirens, most times they will drive with lights and sirens to the location, then without to the hospital, and finally, lights and sirens to the location, to the hospital, and to the donut shop, but Never Never back to base. As always, if the patient's condition deteriorates, we can turn on our lights and sirens...just like a pilot can append "Medevac" mid flight.

So, if we liken the term "Medevac" to an ambulance using lights and sirens it just makes sense. Using the information provided by the medical staff at the location the dispatch centre or medical flight crew can determine if:
  • You do not need to append medevac
    You need to append Medevac to get there, but after their evaluation it is not required on the way back
    You need to append Medevac both ways
The only reason that people think ambulances use their lights and sirens all the time in real life is because when you see one it grabs your attention....try this, look more closely and you will see many many more ambulances without lights and sirens.

Besides, the vast majority of Medevac calls in my experience are for 2 reasons, The patient is in a remote location that is not accessable by road or going by air is far faster than going by ground when long distances are required, in rare instances the patient might actually be in critical condition and necessitate the "Medevac" call sign rather than just using the air ambulance for convenience.
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Re: Medivac call-signs

Post by Brewguy »

Great post!

I've had limited experience with EMS (6 month co-op with the ministry of health during school), and I believe the use of "MEDEVAC" status / callsigns should be limited to circumstances where an ambulance would be using their lights & sirens. I'm pretty sure that's the 'intent' of the regulations.

The misuse & abuse of this priority status is no different than an ambulance or police car blasting through traffic with lights & sirens just to get gas, go for a coffee, or back to the station at the end of a shift.

Either it's a life-saving emergency situation, or it's not.
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Re: Medivac call-signs

Post by r22captain »

No I don't have any real world, on the ground ems exposure....TV got me again. My apologies for and ignorance on that subject.

But what i do know is present day, we get paged, told where we are going and pax weight. Nothing more. We file medevac as we don't know if the guy/gal has minutes or a patient transfer. It's been deemed safer to take the human factor element out as we all know with weather/duty day blah, blah, etc, etc. So like someone else mentioned, we call in as Medevac because we don't know any better (we're just a meat servo), and cancel as we deem fit to do so.

That's the way it is. Is it perfect?....no

After a while you develop a sense for how urgent a call is, and throw a little airmanship in there for good measure so you're not blasting through 4 control zones while Medevac on a flat ifr day for no good reason. But, as per the origin of the post....there's generally a lack of airmanship out there. I'm not saying the term Medevac doesn't get abused.

I know NS has a pretty thorough process of determining if a pax is to go by air or ground. So chances are out here if we're going medevac, we're doing so for good reason.
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Re: Medivac call-signs

Post by Brewguy »

And I can certainly understand that for going out to a call. Similarly in the ground EMS world (at least here in Ontario) if a person is unconscious, or reports any difficulty breathing, it was always dispatched as a code 4 (lights & sirens). But once on scene, and the EMTs were dealing with the patient, the return trip was very often at a lower priority code.

Obviously an air ambulance is often called in for the most serious cases. Again, I understand that.

But I'm quite alarmed by some of the posts saying how some company SOPs have every flight as medevac status, even if it's known that it is not an emergency. That's abuse. I'm sure that's not everyone, and for some of them, it's the company not the pilot that makes the determination. But its still a bit irksome.

On a similar note, I know from years of volunteering with CASARA, that both us and the CF/DND are very restrictive on the use of "RESCUE" call signs.
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Re: Medivac call-signs

Post by r22captain »

COM 8.5.1
A MEDEVAC is a flight responding to a medical emergency for the transport of patients, organ donors, organs or other urgently needed life-saving medical material. This can also apply to certain medical flights, including helicopters, which may be designated as Air Ambulance Flights.
open for interpretation in my eyes.
I know it gets abused there's no question. But some pilots need there hand held and what to do and when.
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fish4life
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Re: Medivac call-signs

Post by fish4life »

A friend of mine was saying something like 80% of ambulance's that go out to the scene with the lights and sirens on return with them off...

Although we are talking about different things, the reason why they don't return with lights and sirens on is due to the fact that the patient has stabilized and the increased RISK of using the lights and sirens is not required, they are still going to take the shortest/ quickest route back to the hospital though. When flying using the medevac call sign decreases the risk of something happening to the patient because the time on board the aircraft is lessened and they will be in the hospital sooner. If there was no increased risk to the patient/ dumb drivers that don't know what to do when the ambulance around then they would travel with the lights and sirens back to the hospital most of the time too as the safest place for a patient is in the hospital.
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Re: Medivac call-signs

Post by ArcticKat »

r22captain wrote: But what i do know is present day, we get paged, told where we are going and pax weight. Nothing more.
And 30 years ago, that's what it was like for ambulance services too. Back in the day we'd transport a patient with a broken leg over ground from our local hospital to a surgical facility and use our lights and sirens only because if we didn't the pain meds would wear off before we arrived. Before MPDS was developed, one would simply call the ambulance for help and we'd drive like hell to get there, only to discover he'd whacked his finger with a hammer. 3 decades and several needless ambulance accidents later we (as a worldwide profession) realized that slower is better. Upgrade our training and our equipment as well as the information provided to us and we can drive our ambulance far more appropriately and with less urgency. The medical flight crew are highly educated and presumably responsible individuals, I know when I took my CAMATA training I learned much about the responsibilities of the pilot and my need to communicate with him. When our air ambulance gets sent out they have a clear understanding of what they are going to.

Ambulances have evolved from the meatwagon business to the highly advanced and mobile "almost" emergency department and I credit the improved safety record to advances in our training. Basically, when I use my lights and sirens it means I am incompetent to provide care to my patient because the treatment urgently required is beyond my training to provide. With improved training and equipment I can take care of the situation in the ambulance and drive slowly instead.

I'm honestly not sure what significance the term "MEDEVAC" is as it relates to a safety issue. Lights and Sirens on an ambulance have been studied and proven to actually cause accidents so we use them less and reduce the risk to ourselves and other drivers. I doubt the "MEDEVAC" designation places other aircraft at risk but just results in an inconvenience to other aircraft in the area. This, r22captain, is where my knowledge is lacking. I'm slowly picking up on some of the repercussions, but is this becoming a big deal, or is it just other pilots getting jealous because this guy can get priority over them just by using a simple word? I haven't flown with SAA for over 12 years, so things may have changed there too, but back when i did, they'd never use the "MEDEVAC" designation unless the patient's condition warranted priority. Most of the time they're just a medical air taxi.

Perhaps it's time to study the impact of the "MEDEVAC" designation to determine if it is being improperly and unsafely used.
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Re: Medivac call-signs

Post by r22captain »

I agree with what you are saying.

how'd this whole topic start? who pissed off who? and how?
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ArcticKat
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Re: Medivac call-signs

Post by ArcticKat »

I dunno, but the fur is about to fly in the other Medevac thread pretty soon methinks.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=72890
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Re: Medivac call-signs

Post by skysix »

Additionally, a coroner can also pronounce death.
not so. Anyone medical professional acting as a physician extender can as well. Like ALS Paramedics / CCP / Flight Nurses etc. Asystole in 3 leads after 20 min of ACLS is all it takes - or obvious clinical signs...
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Re: Medivac call-signs

Post by skysix »

I'm pretty sure you're wrong, but I can understand how those without exposure to the real world of EMS can have their perception skewed by the Hollywood dramatizations. For those of you who have actually done a Medevac run, please respond to this...How many times have you flown to get a patient and your crew was the only medical crew on scene?
A couple of hundred at least. And not all RW.
I will bet that with the exception of SAR that almost no helicopter medevac and absolutely no fixed wing have arrived to pick up a patient who has not already been receiving medical care from a qualified professional.
Nope again. Many FW scene flights where no medical personell on scene. Just lay public / co-workers / bystanders.
These medical professionals are quite capable of determining the severity of the situation and to inform the dispatch centre of the details.
Ummmm... not so much. Great in theory. Ever hear of "scene calls with walls" AKA "Well Lit Scene Calls" or "IFT (interfacility transfer) Recues"?
Ambulance dispatch centres use a tool called the Medical Priority Dispatch System, MPDS, this system is used to improve safety and patient outcomes by evaluating how serious the condition of the patient is over the phone and sending the ambulance using the appropriate emergency response. Many times, an ambulance will drive to the location and to the hospital without lights and sirens, most times they will drive with lights and sirens to the location, then without to the hospital, and finally, lights and sirens to the location, to the hospital, and to the donut shop, but Never Never back to base. As always, if the patient's condition deteriorates, we can turn on our lights and sirens...just like a pilot can append "Medevac" mid flight.

So, if we liken the term "Medevac" to an ambulance using lights and sirens it just makes sense. Using the information provided by the medical staff at the location the dispatch centre or medical flight crew can determine if:
Not gonna happen - no way is a PIC going to let a dispatcher (EMS not a TC or FAA approved aviation dispatcher) determine if he requests any particular flight plan - including the MEDEVC delaration/request
  • You do not need to append medevac
    You need to append Medevac to get there, but after their evaluation it is not required on the way back
    You need to append Medevac both ways
The only reason that people think ambulances use their lights and sirens all the time in real life is because when you see one it grabs your attention....try this, look more closely and you will see many many more ambulances without lights and sirens.
Besides, the vast majority of Medevac calls in my experience are for 2 reasons, The patient is in a remote location that is not accessible by road or going by air is far faster than going by ground when long distances are required, in rare instances the patient might actually be in critical condition and necessitate the "Medevac" call sign rather than just using the air ambulance for convenience.
I'll give you that - and the number of times I have asked the PIC for direct routing/priority handling I can count on my digits per year. But they are already on a "MEDEVAC" designation anyway. All that does is let ATC know that this one is real and priority handling IS required.

There was an incident a few years back where a controller was so flustered by the unusual use of Medevac that a separation loss occurred. So some of the current situation may be from operators and TC more closely following the wording and having MEDEVAC declared more often. The PIC can always inform ATC if no priority handling is required, if you are a controller in Northern Alberta you'd already have that figured out given the 10,000 or so flights a year that use it.

So in essence MEDEVAC alerts ATC that the PIC might need priority handling, and reduces the stress and surprise if during the flight he does so request. As well as for getting clearance through congested airspace on RW flights when the pt condition is unknown or critical. It is always "fun" crossing a major international's airspace on an outbound scene flight with one medcrew on a radio with the LZ commander, another on a different radio with dispatch, and the pilot on a 3rd with ATC. Sorting the relevant traffic in your headset and still retaining situational awareness is a challenge...
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Re: Medivac call-signs

Post by ArcticKat »

skysix wrote:
Additionally, a coroner can also pronounce death.
not so. Anyone medical professional acting as a physician extender can as well. Like ALS Paramedics / CCP / Flight Nurses etc. Asystole in 3 leads after 20 min of ACLS is all it takes - or obvious clinical signs...
My mistake, I misstated pronouncement for certification, I'm a paramedic, I know for a fact that I can not certify death nor can a nurse. We can pronounce a person dead, but, we do not have the qualifications to sign the death certificate. Only a Physician or a Coroner has that responsibility...in Saskatchewan at least, I can't speak to other jurisdictions.

Thanks for the input SkySix.
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Re: Medivac call-signs

Post by I WAS Birddog »

r22captain wrote:I agree with what you are saying.

how'd this whole topic start? who pissed off who? and how?
:oops:

So....I'm minding my own business ...a few weeks ago when I got bumped out of sequence for a "MEDEVAC" and went to the back of the line. No biggie...we're here to help and work with each other...except that when I pulled into the FBO the same pilots were braggin' and laughing about how easy it is to get into Canada's biggest airport. Just say MEDEVAC and they're in front. The Birddog of old would have have said something to these pricks. But...I'm too busy with other life matters to 'take them to school'.

So, instead, I wanted to inform myself and perhaps raise awareness to those that didn't know this is perhaps ongoing. I've lost my illusions in my travels to know that anything will change but...perhaps people will check their conscience regarding this issue.

Thanks for an informative thread. I learned a lot.
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Re: Medivac call-signs

Post by r22captain »

I WAS Birddog wrote:
r22captain wrote:I agree with what you are saying.

how'd this whole topic start? who pissed off who? and how?
:oops:

So....I'm minding my own business ...a few weeks ago when I got bumped out of sequence for a "MEDEVAC" and went to the back of the line. No biggie...we're here to help and work with each other...except that when I pulled into the FBO the same pilots were braggin' and laughing about how easy it is to get into Canada's biggest airport. Just say MEDEVAC and they're in front. The Birddog of old would have have said something to these pricks. But...I'm too busy with other life matters to 'take them to school'.

So, instead, I wanted to inform myself and perhaps raise awareness to those that didn't know this is perhaps ongoing. I've lost my illusions in my travels to know that anything will change but...perhaps people will check their conscience regarding this issue.

Thanks for an informative thread. I learned a lot.
ya that's not cool..... :evil:
there's no question it gets abused. AIRMANSHIP people........use some
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