ACPA Implodes !

[morefun]

Lets fire Strack too.....

[vic777]

notwithstanding the unfortunate use of the word here by some who support the Coalition's objectives.

I believe all Pilots are equal when it comes to "greed" and any discussion of the "greed factor" is just a waste of time.

[Fanblade]

I believe all Pilots are equal when it comes to "greed" and any discussion of the "greed factor" is just a waste of time.

I disagree completely. My faith in my fellow pilots is at an all time high. The reaction to the me me me TA, and who cares about who comes next, was pleasure to watch. The disgust permeated through out the seniority list.

Yes there were exceptions. Clearly not most. ME ME ME and heck with anyone else was by far the minority position.

Best line: Just because it is brown and steamy doesn't mean it is porridge!

By the way. ACPA implodes? Not even close. ACPA is the membership. We have control. No better example of this than what is presently happening.

[Rockie]

This is only act one of a play that the company and our representation tried to slide past us while we weren't looking. ACPA is not just us, it is also very much the people we entrust to represent us and look after our best interests. And they have just proven themselves unworthy of that trust.

[vic777]

I disagree completely. My faith in my fellow pilots is at an all time high.

I said we are all equal, which is what you seem to be saying ...

[Fanblade]

No Vic777,

You implied pilots are just generally selfish and greedy. Considering I am one? A little offensive actually.

I believe all Pilots are equal when it comes to "greed" and any discussion of the "greed factor" is just a waste of time.

After what I just watched. I do not agree with you. Yes some are. Not most. Acts of non selfishness are saving my future. To those that are, I am grateful. Your generalized description of pilots is wrong.

Rockie,

Agreed. Recall. Just need one MEC member to change the balance of power.

[Morry Bund]

My faith in my fellow pilots is at an all time high.

That makes one of us...

OK. So let's say we don't want to give up the ship. We need to repair the cracks. We need to build solidarity and work together, to build a common front. Where on earth do we start? I don't believe that we can do it with our existing leadership.

I am not suggesting that we need to throw out the baby with the bath water. But we cannot present a common front when we have leaders that seek to divide, rather than unite. When deals are made in the back rooms by PUC-type committees working privately with management to come up with deals like the LCC proposal. With Negotiating Teams that hold Road Shows that use the employer's slide-show propaganda to persuade us that we are underworked and overpaid.

I don't share your enthusiasm for exalted faith in my fellow pilots. In fact, I, like most others here, are skeptical about believing that those that I have elected to represent me are the least bit interested in looking out after my interests.

Persuade me otherwise, please.

[vic777]

You implied pilots are just generally selfish and greedy.

No I didn't. I said all Pilots are equal (more or less), in the "greed" department.

I believe all Pilots are equal when it comes to "greed" and any discussion of the "greed factor" is just a waste of time.

My sentence above is in simple English, if you do not understand it, or read into it, that's your problem. Would you at least agree that any discussion of the "greed factor", is a waste of time?

[bearinmind]

We dont have a lot of time before the problem gets past us.

We agreed on a let to get Sky regional started with the provision that we had a contract. We didnt, and CR is going ahead anyways.

We were presented with the offer to start an LCC with different pay structure and working conditions. We refused it and CR is going ahead anyways.

As we sit and fight about Jazz, and our management, we have been planted with a seed that the LCC and Sky Regional are going to happen and in 4 months when we finaly have the details of our union and a facing forward contract, we will have lost the bargaining power of the existance of these two proposals. The company will spin it as a union that restricts the progress of the company. We have to stop it in its tracks before it becomes reality.

Edited for spelling I probably didnt get it all.

[Brize]

We dont have a lot of time before the problem gets past us.

We agreed on a let to get Sky regional started with the provieeion that we had a contract. We didnt, and CR is going ahead anyways.

We were presented with the offer to start an LCC with different pay structure and working conditions. We refused it and CR is going ahead anyways.

As we sit and fight about Jazz, and our management, we have been planted with a seed that the LCC and Sky Regional are going to happen and in 4 months when we finaly have the details of our union and a facing forward contract, we will have lost the bargaining power of the existance of these two proposals. The company will spin it as a union that restricts the progress of the company. We have to stop it in its tracks before it becomes reality.

I agree. So very well put.

[duranium]

This is only act one of a play that the company and our representation tried to slide past us while we weren't looking. ACPA is not just us, it is also very much the people we entrust to represent us and look after our best interests. And they have just proven themselves unworthy of that trust.

For what it is worth, I believe is is act four. Act one was denying future retirees a part of what they should have received from the cargo let, act two was capitulating on pension indexing, act three was AC and ACPA hand in hand going against the law of the land by opposing the continued employment of anybody that turned older than 60. Feel free to add more if one so desires. This should be rightly entitled '' The Book of Shame''

[Rockie]

You're right of course. I've been thinking of amending this line:

And they have just proven themselves unworthy of that trust.

because in reality they proved themselves unworthy of that trust a long time ago. It's just that the membership enmasse hasn't woken up to that fact until ACPA tried to sneak this TA by them.

[duranium]

Hopefully, just hopefully, the rank and file, ei, the troops in the trenches will have learned a valuable and priceless leason from this near fiasco. It is near past midnight for you people to turn the ship in a very different direction.

[MackTheKnife]

Hopefully, just hopefully, the rank and file, ei, the troops in the trenches will have learned a valuable and priceless leason from this near fiasco. It is near past midnight for you people to turn the ship in a very different direction.

I received an unsolicited email from the "enlightened" group. It appears the spring house cleaning of the MEC is in full swing as they are now petitioning to have 8 more MEC members removed.

[LeadingEdge]

You implied pilots are just generally selfish and greedy.

No I didn't. I said all Pilots are equal (more or less), in the "greed" department.

I believe all Pilots are equal when it comes to "greed" and any discussion of the "greed factor" is just a waste of time.

My sentence above is in simple English, if you do not understand it, or read into it, that's your problem. Would you at least agree that any discussion of the "greed factor", is a waste of time?

I believe that Pilots in general, are stupid people...

1. No College of Pilots - 30 years of declining wages and standard of living, you would think that they would get it...
2. Fighting to give up early retirement - are you nuts??
3. Ego, they actually believe that "they" can save the company. Management laughs all the way to their next bonus.
4. Unionism has no value - see point number one, if you believed in it, it can work, just ask a Jazz Pilot (thats a compliment by the way).
5. CARS vs JAAR and FAA rules - hey we want to work in the '50s...
6. I have 3 ex-wives.
7. I am just about to retire - with a mortgage!
8. Nutritionally deprived - I love Airline food!
9. Sleep in 3 hour increments - Thats what you get from 9 hour airport layovers...

and

10. I'll work for FREE!

[Morry Bund]

Lets fire Strack too.

The real test of whether ACPA completely unravels will be told by whether this recall issue is addressed only to the position of the MEC Chair, or whether it is expanded to other go after other positions, elected and appointed, including the Base executives and the Negotiating Committee.

[IronMan]

We agreed on a let to get Sky regional started with the provision that we had a contract. We didnt, and CR is going ahead anyways.



Edited for spelling I probably didnt get it all.

Not to hijack this thread, but is this true? Did you really start this ball rolling downhill just for the simple assurance that you will get a contract?

[jazzbeat]

duranium, it would be hard to add some more since it's all about YOU and YOu and YOU and YOU

[rudder]

MEC Chair subject to national recall.

Base Executive subject to local recall.

NC subject to MEC recall.

It is all interconnected. Membership recall of the MEC Chair is a shot across the bow at the Base Executive(s) that comprise the MEC to change direction, which may include the composition of the NC.

It will be interesting to see what flows out of today's pow-wow. More paternalistic "we know what's best" or hopefully "we heard you loud and clear". How messy it gets will likely depend on the message. More of the MEC 6-6 gridlock will just send the train competely off of the tracks and bring all sorts of new options into play (ALPA?). Even a 6 year old cannot hold their breath forever.

What legitimate and enlightened leadership would even think of leaving 50% of their membership behind? The MEC elected the MEC Chair and they have the power to remove him as well. Why force the membership to vote on recall when the result is apparently already a foregone conclusion, and the result will be interpreted by third parties as a measure of solidarity (or lack thereof).

There is a problem with the TA and over 50% of the pilots are pissed. They didn't even bother to wait for the ratification vote to commence to express their extreme opposition. That is not a starting point for 'tweaking'. It is a starting point for an internal process to re-identify bargaining priorities and deciding where lines in the sand must be drawn if a concept is off limits. The MEC and the NC got it wrong. They will not get it right until they consult their constituents in detail and not via some straight up or down vote on this TA.

The 50%+1 strategy in collective bargaining is a fool's game. Aim for 100% and accept responsibility for a job well done only if the result is 85%+ in favour.

[accumulous]

Well, the Runaway Train crash almost woke the troops up but not quite.

Impact was a bit heavy so it’s not surprising the Federal Court Collective Concussion left everybody a little bit stunned.

The Hindenburg is already billowing up in flames as the remnants of its Crew commences executing one another for getting completely lost on the cross country excursion to oblivion.

Petition Mania has to be the largest fully Public Lynching in Canadian Union history.

With the CIRB poised to issue verdicts in a mound of DFR’s, and the Canadian Human Rights Commission standing within sight of the blast radius, maybe everybody should just deconstruct the gallows, slide the blade keeper back on the Guillotine, and jump overboard en masse, if only to speed things up as this sordid mess grinds inexorably toward its wicked conclusion.

There’s a meeting today for the re-arrangement of the Titanic’s Deck Chairs.

dit dit dit - dah dah dah - dit dit dit

For the newer hires, that's S.O.S.

God help us all. Just get over the damn side and try to stay well outside the suction zone.

She's going under.

[MackTheKnife]

Looking at the 8 MEC petitions underway, it looks like 2 problem children have been identified big time. Both have lost the support of close to half of their constituents. There's no way they can rightfully continue to represent YYZ members.

[duranium]

duranium, it would be hard to add some more since it's all about YOU and YOu and YOU and YOU

Question for you jazzbeat. Could you possibly lay off the personal attacks and debate the proposed subjects. If you cannot refute facts, you should stay on the sidelines because the moderators have otherwise a thin skin when the crosshairs are pointed in the wrong direction and the writer attempts to slay the messerger vs the message.
What I have written are facts gleaned from many sources and put down here for all to read, more so for the ones who are new to this forum. Sorry if the truth has offended you but I did not create those results, just enumerated some of them.

duranium

[yycflyguy]

Rudder:

It will be interesting to see what flows out of today's pow-wow. More paternalistic "we know what's best" or hopefully "we heard you loud and clear". How messy it gets will likely depend on the message. More of the MEC 6-6 gridlock will just send the train competely off of the tracks and bring all sorts of new options into play (ALPA?). Even a 6 year old cannot hold their breath forever

Well, he refuses to see the writing on the wall. A newsletter sent out was thin on specifics only stating that they will reconvene today to continue talks. The latest rumour is so they can explore poorly written sections of the constitution to avert the recall. That must be one big GOLDEN CARROT dangling in front of him to get this TA pushed through.

[Rockie]

For those of you hoping that this train was finished wrecking I offer this from our President today:


"After lengthy deliberation, the MEC resolved to send the Negotiating Committee back to discuss ways in which your concerns might be addressed. Please exercise patience as the committee undertakes its direction from the MEC. "


Oh yes, and thanks to our MEC we still have 150+ CHRT rulings and the DFR complaints to go along with this particular disaster...

[the original tony]

For the love of God, we get it. Age has no limit, we hope hundreds get lay offs for
the top to stay longer. I will gladly loose my job now to POSSIBLY stay till i'm 100.
Just shut the hell up. I don't care about the age 60 anybody, got it. I don't care if you do.
Join government, quit flying and change all the laws you want, I don't give a rats ass.
You talk big, join our union and make a difference, until then shut it.

Tony