Canadair CL415 and the AT802

[Driving Rain]

ABFG

Can't swap the floats over...where do you guys get this stuff?

DR

Trouble is once the 802 becomes a Fire Boss (amphibious floats) it stays on them it''s not an easy like the Twin Otter float to gear swap.

Big difference it what was written and what you think was.

Anytime the subject comes up there seems to be this need for defensive chest puffing and pecker measuring, notably and frequently by a select few in the Canadian Shield.

Could say the same thing about you ...but I wont.

[System Message]

A pair of AT802 haul the same load as a CL415 with the same crew but with less total power. Does the extra horsepower of a 415 allow it to reduce it's turn radius or load faster, or is it just used to haul a much heavier aircraft.

185_guy said that the polit bureau can concern itself with the price. A two million dollar plane is something a small buisness can afford which means the pilot may own the plane he flies. What sort of compensation do private companies recieve for delivering aerial retardant?

A twin engine plane has twice the chance of being grounded by mechanical issues. A pair of single engine planes with an issue is still in buisness with one plane.

On a hot fire is the water more effective coming from a single plane than a pair of planes a number of seconds apart?

A CL always has a passenger on the plane. While they take turns flying the plane, the pilot flying has a safety issue with distractions from the the other.

[Driving Rain]

A CL always has a passenger on the plane. While they take turns flying the plane, the pilot flying has a safety issue with distractions from the the other.

That's one of the stupidest things I've ever read.

[fire flyer]

Yes that is a ridiculous statement. Fact is the Alberta Gov, an agency that owns CL215/Ts, has contracted 8 FireBoss and often has an additional 2 on short term contract. That could lead one to believe that there is, wait for it wait for it....a need for various types. Did he just say that? Oh yeah! I know, not a surprise to most but some think it is one or the other. Personally I think that the FireBoss in support of retardant groups and larger skimmer groups works very well. For Manitoba east to have a FB or two at "forward bases"(either on a dock or remote strip maybe with retardant available) ready to get the first few loads on a fire while the other guys are en route (Initial Attack my peeps) is a great concept. You can compare loads, endurance, cost all season long but head to head the FB and CL are as different as a B747 vs A320. Both haul people to places. The FB v TO is a good debate I guess but thats not for me.

FF

[Doc]

Dumb question from a non-bomber pilot.
Why did they not call the US Forestry Service and have Evergreen's (or whoever flies it these days) B747 or whatever the biggest airplane they use, to come help out at Slave Lake?? The bombers on sight (for whatever reason) were inefficient, and ineffective, to say the least. I know the winds were a huge issue, but the town got pretty much written off. The Big Boeing full of retardant might have been a big help? Again, I'm not really knowledgeable on the subject. Tanker One finally arrived on the scene.

[Elliot Moose]

DC10 and the Martin Mars showed up over Ft. Mac way a week or so later. Probably a fair bit of lead time to procure one of those--or else it took a town burning get them to loosen the old rubber band on the gov't wallet

[Driving Rain]

Not a dumb question Doc. The fires in Slave Lake were a weather event. Very high winds weren't foretasted and they kept at sustained speeds of over 100 kph during the night.
Not much could fly during that event and even if they could there is not much one can do to fires driven by winds of that speed and duration. An Airspray Electra did manage to get airborne and put some loads across the highway out of town to help with the evacuation. The Electra has you know is a great sled and was the only aircraft I know of in the Alberta arsenal that could handle winds like they experienced that day.
The US Forest service as far as I know has never approved the 747 or the DC 10 for use in their fire management programs. The DC 10 is approved by the California Department of Forestry and that's why we see it use there. The Alberta SR had to pull some strings at the national level to get it above the 49th which they did but these things take time.
I spent the last 31 years fighting fires and the one thing I can tell you is politics and bureaucracy play huge roles in Canadian and especially American fire programs.

[Doc]

DC10 and the Martin Mars showed up over Ft. Mac way a week or so later. Probably a fair bit of lead time to procure one of those--or else it took a town burning get them to loosen the old rubber band on the gov't wallet

The trick is to get these pricks to loosen their wallets BEFORE a town burns? Funny how they seem perfectly willing to throw money away most of the season (I've flown a key for a padlock from YSB to YGQ!) pissing away countless $$ into the wind, but when it REALLY matters, sit on the funds like they're the Holy Grail. I don't know enough about the business to understand why the water bombers were ineffective, buy I do recognize a stupid waste of money when I see it.

[Doc]

What about spending large amounts of $$ on very good sprinkler systems in any community in an area of concern for forest fires? I'm considering one for my home. I figure a Honda pump down on the dock, a couple of sprinklers beside and on the house would keep stuff too wet to burn?
The sprinkler systems would have to be on a different power source. Wouldn't want them to go TU if the town lost it's power. I think the idea has potential....wet houses wont burn.

[Driving Rain]

The OMNR have been using them for years. I've seen the ground pounders race in ahead of a fast moving fire while the 215/415 applied high foam loads on structures buying time. It works in fact one or two enterprising individuals in Slave Lake with pools and pumps did that very thing and were spared.

[North Shore]

Dumb question from a non-bomber pilot.
Why did they not call the US Forestry Service and have Evergreen's (or whoever flies it these days) B747 or whatever the biggest airplane they use, to come help out at Slave Lake?? The bombers on sight (for whatever reason) were inefficient, and ineffective, to say the least. I know the winds were a huge issue, but the town got pretty much written off. The Big Boeing full of retardant might have been a big help? Again, I'm not really knowledgeable on the subject. Tanker One finally arrived on the scene.

I think, Doc, that Slave Lake was a 'one day wonder', driven by extreme winds. By the time that everything could have been organised to get one of those machines up there, it would have been too late.

I don't know enough about the business to understand why the water bombers were ineffective,

Ideally, we'd be on top of small fires as soon as they start, with several loads, so that they don't get a chance to get big and roll along. Once they do, though, often the best plan of attack is to steer a fire downwind, by flanking it on the sides, into something that is not burnable (swamp, lake, etc..) There are times however, where the conditions (dry, windy) etc.. get so extreme that there's not much that we can do except for showing the flag, and waiting for Tanker#1, or for the conditions to moderate somewhat. I suspect that this is what was happening that day, and the town happened to be right downwind. Don't forget that the largest tanker (Mars) only carries 6000 gallons of water, and compared to a fire front where the flames could be 200m wide, and 200' in the air, then it's not really that much. Also, a big fire can kick out sparks and embers that can start multiple spot fires as much as 1 mile downwind, so a big fire can rapidly become unmanageable..

What about spending large amounts of $$ on very good sprinkler systems in any community in an area of concern for forest fires? I'm considering one for my home. I figure a Honda pump down on the dock, a couple of sprinklers beside and on the house would keep stuff too wet to burn?
The sprinkler systems would have to be on a different power source. Wouldn't want them to go TU if the town lost it's power. I think the idea has potential....wet houses wont burn.

A very good, practical, idea for an individual homeowner, especially if you have a nearby water source that is large enough. And, one that is very effective - raise the humidity, and the fire will go elsewhere. I know that, if I lived in an area that was at risk for this type of occurrence, then I'd be setting up such a system...However, on a town-size scale, in the last decade, how many towns have had a fire go through them? I can remember 3: Kelowna, Slave Lake, and Barriere, BC. I think that it'd be a hard sell to taxpayers to set up the large-scale infrastructure required to prepare every town that is at risk for a fire of this nature. Or, you'd require civic cooperation of a type that is completely unknown to North Americans.

[outsider]

How does the 802 compare to a 415 in Swells or high winds kicking up waves on a lake , ???? , time on a fire , range , what about a call for help from another province , 802 in IFR vs 2 crew on the 415 / 215 ,

[culver10]

Dropping loads is what it is all about!!

[Doc]

How does the 802 compare to a 415 in Swells or high winds kicking up waves on a lake , ???? , time on a fire , range , what about a call for help from another province , 802 in IFR vs 2 crew on the 415 / 215 ,

How do they stack up against each other in a dog fight? Or, when taking hits from AA fire. Which one can take a hit from a shoulder launched Stinger missile? How about as a cruise ship on the high seas being attacked by Somali pirates? Which one would make a better camper? How would each look on a pedestal? When all is said and done, they both rely on Tanker 1 to finish the job.

[outsider]

Dropping loads is what it is all about!!

So Back to water bombing and not F**KING , Big Sccopers vs. long nose 802's

[outsider]

How does the 802 compare to a 415 in Swells or high winds kicking up waves on a lake , ???? , time on a fire , range , what about a call for help from another province , 802 in IFR vs 2 crew on the 415 / 215 ,

How do they stack up against each other in a dog fight? Or, when taking hits from AA fire. Which one can take a hit from a shoulder launched Stinger missile? How about as a cruise ship on the high seas being attacked by Somali pirates? Which one would make a better camper? How would each look on a pedestal? When all is said and done, they both rely on Tanker 1 to finish the job.

Ok Doc , when we are not comparing how a big scooper and an 802 would do on the weekly fear mongering of the history channel , and we are discussing forest fires , how do they match up.

[outsider]

How does the 802 compare to a 415 in Swells or high winds kicking up waves on a lake , ???? , time on a fire , range , what about a call for help from another province , 802 in IFR vs 2 crew on the 415 / 215 ,

How do they stack up against each other in a dog fight? Or, when taking hits from AA fire. Which one can take a hit from a shoulder launched Stinger missile? How about as a cruise ship on the high seas being attacked by Somali pirates? Which one would make a better camper? How would each look on a pedestal? When all is said and done, they both rely on Tanker 1 to finish the job.

Ok Doc , when we are not comparing how a big scooper and an 802 would do on the weekly fear mongering of the history channel , and we are discussing forest fires , how do they match up.

BTW , the BMW F800 GS kicks the Triumph Tiger 800s ass any day of the week as does the 415 to the 802.

[Cat Driver]

Are helicopters any good for fire suppression?

For instance how does a S64 compare to the 802 and the 415 ?

It seems only fair we compare other equipment now the conversation is well under way.

How about shovels, grub axes and hand pumps, are they effective tools in fire suppression?

[outsider]

Are helicopters any good for fire suppression?

For instance how does a S64 compare to the 802 and the 415 ?

It seems only fair we compare other equipment now the conversation is well under way.

How about shovels, grub axes and hand pumps, are they effective tools in fire suppression?

I may be mistaken , but I never heard of a chopper that used Foam , mostly straight water , not bad on mop up , but for IA and containment Big Scoopers with foam capability seem to be the best option. But what do I know , I'm less than 100 posts.

[Doc]

BTW , the BMW F800 GS kicks the Triumph Tiger 800s ass any day of the week as does the 415 to the 802.

It also costs a good chunk more coin, and breaks down twice as often....and it NEEDS a longer warranty! Actually the Tiger puts more HP to the rear wheel than the BMW. 94 for the Tiger, 85 for the BMW. That's over 10%!

[outsider]

BTW , the BMW F800 GS kicks the Triumph Tiger 800s ass any day of the week as does the 415 to the 802.

It also costs a good chunk more coin, and breaks down twice as often....and it NEEDS a longer warranty! Actually the Tiger puts more HP to the rear wheel than the BMW. 94 for the Tiger, 85 for the BMW. That's over 10%!

Triumph is more heavy and has a more street feel. F800GS is a better dirt machine. More warranty equals more faith in the Bike. How ever I like Triumph , esp the Bonneville SE , but living the life or a part time Northern based pilot , I'll take the BMW F 800GS any day.

[Doc]

The F800GS is too tall for me. Looking at the F650GS. Might just get a DR650. While we're into "go anywhere simple".
How much beer can you stuff in an 802? The CL415 has lots of beer space.

[Water off]

No Beer money left after you pay the 28 million...

[DHC5]

You can carry a few kegs of beer with the money you save buying one of these vs the CL415's..

[Cat Driver]

I may be mistaken , but I never heard of a chopper that used Foam , mostly straight water , not bad on mop up , but for IA and containment Big Scoopers with foam capability seem to be the best option. But what do I know , I'm less than 100 posts.

What does having less than 100 posts have to do with discussing fire suppression with air tankers?

I realize that things have really changed since I last flew air tankers but the core principals should be the same.

I was truly fortunate to have started my fire bombing as a direct entry captain and did not have to sit right seat waiting for an upgrade.