
Bad instructor stories
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I know people who start the clock the second you walk in the door and turn it off the second you walk out. Why shouldn't someone pay for a good or service provided, not to mention a professional service?bizjet_mania wrote:if ur student is one of those that don't study their material and u have to show them again then they should be billed. but if its brief, i don't see the reason to.
I give lots of free advice and insturuction but if we are booked together you will pay for my exclusive and personal attention. Face it if the student is motivated by money and comes prepaired then the time will shorten. If not then the price goes up considerably.
On the other hand I will not stand for instructors gouging students for airtime or money. If the student wants a professional and is paying for a professional then why should they get anything less.
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Getting back to Bob Sacamano's question about debriefings, at the school where I both trained and worked for a number of years, it was considered uncommon practice, to charge for post-flight debriefings. This guy was overcharging me for preparatory ground instruction, pre-flight briefings and charging me for post-flight debriefings, which were no more than 10 to 15 minutes and were done, as one guy said, while walking from the airplane into the building, or over a coffee in the restaurant. The school's policy was to charge only for preparatory ground instruction and any ground instruction related to exam preparation.
This instructor was basically trying to make a quick buck wherever he could and it was adding up fast. At one point, the CFI was surprised to see so many hours of preparatory ground instruction in my PTR, compared to other students. He had flown with me a couple of times during my training, so he knew that I was a good learner and I was not having any problems or plateaus. This is when he decided to speak to this individual instructor about why I was being given so much unnecessary ground instruction.
When I was teaching, I gave the minimum amount of preparatory ground instruction necessary, unless I had a problem student. I had some, who were fast learners and others, who needed a little more ground instruction, to reinforce what they were being taught. And even then, I tried to keep it to a minimum, because from experience, I knew it could add up fast. I had enough students to keep me quite busy, so it was'nt necessary to charge an extra .2 here or .3 there, just to make a few extra bucks.
This instructor was basically trying to make a quick buck wherever he could and it was adding up fast. At one point, the CFI was surprised to see so many hours of preparatory ground instruction in my PTR, compared to other students. He had flown with me a couple of times during my training, so he knew that I was a good learner and I was not having any problems or plateaus. This is when he decided to speak to this individual instructor about why I was being given so much unnecessary ground instruction.
When I was teaching, I gave the minimum amount of preparatory ground instruction necessary, unless I had a problem student. I had some, who were fast learners and others, who needed a little more ground instruction, to reinforce what they were being taught. And even then, I tried to keep it to a minimum, because from experience, I knew it could add up fast. I had enough students to keep me quite busy, so it was'nt necessary to charge an extra .2 here or .3 there, just to make a few extra bucks.
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- bob sacamano
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You're all about the peopledesksgo wrote:And some turkey will respond to that by saying "at least you get paid"...so I just wanted to point out the wrong answer ahead of time. I just saved someone from looking stupidbob sacamano wrote: working 14hours days and getting paid for a few really sucks.

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What I always get a kick out of is how instructors are always held to this bizarre double standard - Like each of us should have a stopclock meter to measure precisely how much time we should charge a student. 90% of the instructors I have known or worked with grossly undercharge for their time, if they charge at all sometimes. I myself am guilty of giving way too much free instruction - yet there's no help for it. Typical scenario: student calls me up, says "I need to pick your brain for a minute" Sometimes these sessions last upwards of half an hour on the phone. But soon as I mention that why don't you come down, book a time and we'll go through things with you... You'd think I was trying to steal their first born by the way some react. The big kicker is some of these calls come from guys who are at their own jobs.fatdumbandlazy wrote: I know people who start the clock the second you walk in the door and turn it off the second you walk out. Why shouldn't someone pay for a good or service provided, not to mention a professional service?
I give lots of free advice and insturuction but if we are booked together you will pay for my exclusive and personal attention. Face it if the student is motivated by money and comes prepaired then the time will shorten. If not then the price goes up considerably.

No one would think twice if your plumbers or drywaller stopped for coffee, took a phone call in the middle of their work. But God forbid an instructor stop for a pee on his way out to the airplane. In fact you're not even paying this poor joe for that bit of time yet you complain about it. Since when did instructors become friggin' serfs?
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
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There aren't too many of these guys, if there ever were.What gets me going are these Instructor/DFTE guys that fail you for no valid reason just to get another check for $250 bucks (let's face it, flt tests are so subjective that if someone wants to fail you, they will find a reason). Watch out if you book a ride with one of these types during a really slow instructing month.

Since an instructor's category is governed by successful rides as well as flight time, no-one is going to send a marginal student to a DFTE. And No-one is going to keep quiet about a DFTE that appears to be jacking a school for cash. Not to mention that a DFTE like anyone else can be sued and knows it.
Dunno where you are, but a DFTE/ACP doesn't really have to beat the bushes looking for work.
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So if its bad ethics to charge for a good de-brief where the student is informed what they did wrong and how to fix it......would it be better not to debrief and allow them to make the same mistakes and end up paying 3x as much by making those mistakes. Besides when was the last time you asked a prof for an extra hour of lecture ? Your dreaming if you think you would ever get that ! Besides, tuition is a package deal, instructing is per hour. If your billed for tuition and get the credit with only putting in 65% of the work, would you get 35% of your tuition back ? If not, is that unethical ? The problem here is some people can't teach and aren't worth the $$. The thing I find most Ironic here is most of the people who find it "unethical" to charge for a professional service such as an instructor would no doubt, not have any problems turning themselves into another "proffessional service provider" as they pay to fly and ruining the industry for everyone else.bizjet_mania wrote:Yes its bad ethics. Does your college/uni teacher charge you if you stay after class to ask some questions or so he/she can tell you how you are doing in the course?bob sacamano wrote:Not meaning to highjack this thread, is it outrageous for instructors to charge for de-briefings?
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I usually charged an extra 0.5 instructor time in addition to the dual rate for the first lesson (PPL) and then a standard 0.2 after that for all additional lessons with a formal PGI session regardless if its 15 minutes or 45 minutes.
I tend to encourage a lot of ground prep and ground work both with me and on their own before each flight - yet just keep the standard 0.2
I feel if I were to charge people for every little thing, specifically early on in the training, then they would be very resistant to taking their time with ground material, paperwork, asking questions, and genuine learning.
More towards the mid and end of the training, after the customer has experienced the routine and understands the benefit and value of this non-flying training, any extra costs that occur are happily accepted.
In the end, the system seems to balance itself out, albeit I'm another instructor that tends to provide much more resource and training on the ground that what I charge.
I also tend to help out in whatever way possible with minimizing cost to the student (and in some cases my extra profit) such as leaning the mixture during shutdown if the student is lost in the checklist when the next item is to lean cut-off and I see the hobbs will rollover if this is not done in the next 30 seconds.
In the end, a bunch of small items, which really dont cost a lot, can lead to a happy statisfied customer who completes the license instead of running out of money, and therefore returns to rent the aircraft, get recurrent checkouts, and recommend us to the next person down the line who ultimatly keeps the beer in my fridge cold
I tend to encourage a lot of ground prep and ground work both with me and on their own before each flight - yet just keep the standard 0.2
I feel if I were to charge people for every little thing, specifically early on in the training, then they would be very resistant to taking their time with ground material, paperwork, asking questions, and genuine learning.
More towards the mid and end of the training, after the customer has experienced the routine and understands the benefit and value of this non-flying training, any extra costs that occur are happily accepted.
In the end, the system seems to balance itself out, albeit I'm another instructor that tends to provide much more resource and training on the ground that what I charge.
I also tend to help out in whatever way possible with minimizing cost to the student (and in some cases my extra profit) such as leaning the mixture during shutdown if the student is lost in the checklist when the next item is to lean cut-off and I see the hobbs will rollover if this is not done in the next 30 seconds.
In the end, a bunch of small items, which really dont cost a lot, can lead to a happy statisfied customer who completes the license instead of running out of money, and therefore returns to rent the aircraft, get recurrent checkouts, and recommend us to the next person down the line who ultimatly keeps the beer in my fridge cold

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Good man Ralliart. I could'nt have said it better. The bottom line is to ensure a well trained and satisfied customer. Remember the learning law of EFFECT. You want to instill a good feeling in your students. On a different note, I would have to say, that the best salary I ever had as an instructor, was when I was teaching at Sault College in Sault Ste. Marie. I was paid a fixed salary, which was not dependent on how much you flew. But then again, that's the college environment. In a flying club environment, your salary is directly proportional to the number students you have and how much you fly. 

"When the power of love overcomes the love for power, only then will this world know peace"
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Half way through my night rating went up with a different instructor and had to teach him how to do an intercept with an ADF. It was like he had never seen a fixed card before. Had to teach same instructor how to use a whizz wheel.
As far as charging for post flight never happened to me. And as far as i know to no one else at the school i attended. Had one instructor charge me to ask questions about the music i listen to. I simply switched instructors which seems to me to be an easy solution.
On the other side I had an instructor that saved me about 1500-2000$, some of which would have been coming straight out of his pocket. I had about 2 hrs of pgi's through cpl, multi, IFR. I would reccomend him to most people, unless they require a lot of extra learning time. (did not have a lot of patience for incompatence) I think over charging would really hurt an instructors reputation.
As far as charging for post flight never happened to me. And as far as i know to no one else at the school i attended. Had one instructor charge me to ask questions about the music i listen to. I simply switched instructors which seems to me to be an easy solution.
On the other side I had an instructor that saved me about 1500-2000$, some of which would have been coming straight out of his pocket. I had about 2 hrs of pgi's through cpl, multi, IFR. I would reccomend him to most people, unless they require a lot of extra learning time. (did not have a lot of patience for incompatence) I think over charging would really hurt an instructors reputation.
- Cool Rythms!
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Are you serious man. That's insane. How in God's name did he even get an instructor rating!Half way through my night rating went up with a different instructor and had to teach him how to do an intercept with an ADF. It was like he had never seen a fixed card before. Had to teach same instructor how to use a whizz wheel.
On the other hand, yes, overcharging could hurt an instructor's reputation. They certainly would'nt get too many referrals.
"When the power of love overcomes the love for power, only then will this world know peace"
- Jimi Hendrix
- Jimi Hendrix