American Financial Woes.... and the GST

[AEROBAT]

Borrowing more money to solve a debt problem is absolutely retarded. When they talk of the 14 trillion deficit they are not taking into account the unfunded liabilities like pensions or medicaid.

If they took all the profit from the Fortune 500 companies in the US it would run the current budget for 13 days. The US debt to GDP ratio, when you include unfunded liabilities, is worse than Greece! If they don't get their act together it will end up like Zimbabwe with inflation spinning out of control.

[. ._]

I think I'll invest all of my money in derivatives- just to be safe.

[Icebound]

...
...
Taxes are a component to re-setting the economy. My understanding of the main platform is that what must go are worthless departments, regulatory agencies and foreign aid, all things the public can live without. ....
...
...
It’s not about dropping safety nets. It’s about personal responsibility, the elimination of Corporate welfare, farm subsidies..and the like . I’ve only nicked the surface...I hope you get the idea.

Yeah, I know.... it's like all that "gravy" which the Fords are eliminating in Toronto

"all things the public can live without" may be exactly the same as "those things which enhance quality of life"... those things which make THIS place a better place to live than some other.. And especially for people of limited means.

The user-pays system, which you and the T may advocate, will reduce the size of the pools of the educated, the talented, the able. It will reduce the size of the pools of users and thus of providers. In short, it will ultimately cost jobs.

When Governments spend their revenue, they create jobs as surely as does corporate investment. Except that corporate investment is designed to maximize revenue for investors, and minimize it for workers and users... cheapest possible labour producing a product of the minimum-possible-quality.

Government spending tries to MAXIMISE benefits for the users for the smallest amount of resources spent, simply because there IS only minimum resources.

This is why Ford's promise, and that of many "c"onservatives... is a sham. Just by the nature of government, its spending is pretty much open to scrutiny 24/7. Which is why, whether it is the Liberal sponsorship, or Tony Clement's Constituency, or the G20.... the public pretty soon gets to know about it and evaluate its relative merit. So I doubt very much that there is that much wholesale "waste" that can be easily cut. Oh sure, there will always be some, but not in the sort of amounts that would go very far to solving Obama's OR Ford's deficit problem.

Western democracy is not meant to be "winner rules". It is meant to give everybody a piece, even the minorities. And especially, it is meant to give a piece of the quality of life to those who might not otherwise be able afford it. So THAT means a measure of equalization for things like affordable food and water, medical care, green space, education, travel infrastructure, clean air, security, etc. Can that mean subsidizing farmers, increasing welfare payments... National medical care, parks program, subsidizing students, paying for Universities and Hospitals.... providing weather services, ensuring aviation standards, police standards, increasing security for electronic funds, etc ad nauseaum????

The countries with the best "quality of life"... for ALL citizens... are those countries which have managed a good balance.

If governments don't assist with equalizing some services... and depend of the user to pay.... you will end up with exactly the type of society which has resulted in "haves" being brought down by the "have-nots" throughout the ages.... including what's happening in the middle east today.

And the post-revolution is not guaranteed to be pretty.


...

[Icebound]

..

Now we know for sure that things are really bad.

Even Fox News' BIll O'Reilly is advocating a national sales tax.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/109018843500 ... t_id=86934

"A national sales tax would raise an enormous amount of cash, which could then be used to fund medicare and other social programs."


...

[robertsailor1]

I think what the other poster was trying to say was that it was policies from the Mulroney boys (GST) that made it possible for the Lib's to have such a great source of revenue without which they wouldn't be turning anything around. So the credit is divided between both parties. With 20/20 hind site its good that it happened just the way it did.
Our friends down south are really up shit creek and because of our healthy trade with them we may not come out of this unscathed ourselves. There is still lots of time for things to go sideways.

[JakeYYZ]

..

Now we know for sure that things are really bad.

Even Fox News' BIll O'Reilly is advocating a national sales tax.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/109018843500 ... t_id=86934

"A national sales tax would raise an enormous amount of cash, which could then be used to fund medicare and other social programs."


...

“51% of the American population pays no Federal tax.” That’s an ‘eye-opener’. I did not know that.
They have to address expanding the tax base vs. trying to increase tax rates on higher incomes.
Yes. A VAT tax makes sense. As Rockie would say: “take a picture”.

[Icebound]

They have to address expanding the tax base vs. trying to increase tax rates on higher incomes.
Yes. A VAT tax makes sense.

I wonder how the so-called tea-party responds to a VAT proposal


...

[Rockie]

The Tea Party's primary objective is to get rid of Obama, and they are willing to use a defaulted United States and subsequently wrecked worldwide economy as a weapon to do it. If the damage they are so willing to cause were limited to the United States I would be content to sit back and watch them get what they deserve, but we will all pay for it if they aren't reined in by cooler and infinitely more intelligent heads in the Republican party.

[robertsailor1]

Definition of an oxymoron....intelligent heads in the Republican party.

[. ._]

I can only think of one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul

R[EVOL]UTION 2012!!!

[System Message]

Easy come easy go

U.S. debt shot up $239 billion on Tuesday — the largest one-day bump in history — as the government flexed the new borrowing room it earned in this week’s debt-limit increase deal.

The debt subject to the statutory limit shot way past the old cap of $14.294 trillion to hit $14.532 trillion on Tuesday, according to the latest the Treasury Department figures, which are released on the next business day.

That increase puts the government already remarkably close to the new debt limit of $14.694, which means one day’s new borrowing ate up 60 percent of the $400 billion in space Congress granted the president this week
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... t-one-day/

[. ._]

This shit show is gonna get INSANE!

Should be great entertainment till I'm living in a van by the river.

[Canuck223]

The Tea Party's primary objective is to get rid of Obama, and they are willing to use a defaulted United States and subsequently wrecked worldwide economy as a weapon to do it. If the damage they are so willing to cause were limited to the United States I would be content to sit back and watch them get what they deserve, but we will all pay for it if they aren't reined in by cooler and infinitely more intelligent heads in the Republican party.

The Tea Party's primary objective is to bitch slap the political aparatchik into the realization that they can not continue to operate as they have been. If you think they don't like Obama, have a look at the critism leveled at most of the Republican figureheads.

One of the benefits of the American system is the Congressmen and Senators are less tied to the party, and are somewhat free to set thier own path.

The downside is these politicians fight harder to stay elected than leading a wise path. It's the absolute worst of pork-barrel politics.

[Rockie]

The Tea Party's primary objective is to bitch slap the political aparatchik into the realization that they can not continue to operate as they have been. If you think they don't like Obama, have a look at the critism leveled at most of the Republican figureheads.

Two points.

1. The Tea Party is quite happy, in fact eager to see the United States default. "Bring it on" is a common sentiment. They are a bunch of simpletons who haven't the slightest clue about economics or even politics.

2. The criticism they have for the Republican party stems from any hint of bipartisan solutions to America's problems. The only thing they bring to the table is a blind hatred for Democrats and especially Obama.

It is worth restating over and over again that if Americans continue to let those self-destructive brain-dead morons drive the agenda, the result will make 2008 look benign and the entire world will pay the price.

[AEROBAT]

If the US defaults, and it will, it won't be the end of the world. They have defaulted at least 3 times before that I can think of. The Continental Congress defaulted on the first currency it issued, the US defaulted right after the Civil war and the US defaulted when Nixon closed the gold window in 1971.

I know of no fiat currency that either hasn't defaulted outright or been so heavily devalued its issue becomes almost worthless.

The people that will suffer the most are the ones most heavily exposed to the derivitaves market. Thanks to Bush and then later Obama those people are the US taxpayers. Bailing out the financial market was the biggest robbery in the worlds history.

[Canuck223]

It is worth restating over and over again that if Americans continue to let those self-destructive brain-dead morons drive the agenda, the result will make 2008 look benign and the entire world will pay the price.

Great quote. I doubt it means the same to you as it does to me.

[Rockie]

It is worth restating over and over again that if Americans continue to let those self-destructive brain-dead morons drive the agenda, the result will make 2008 look benign and the entire world will pay the price.

Great quote. I doubt it means the same to you as it does to me.

In the early 90's the Liberal government reached an ideological crossroads thanks to the secretly required bailout of Saskatchewan. They could have blundered on with business as usual and reached the inevitable default that the Tea Party is so eager to see in the United States. Fortunately they chose fiscal responsibility and the result was the enviable position Canada found itself in when 2008 hit instead of the economic catastrophy and loss of sovereignty Canada would have suffered otherwise.

The United States has now found themselves at the very same crossroad, except now the stakes for the entire world are much, much larger. The world economy cannot afford a defaulted United States at the best of times, but uncontrolled debt around the world has pushed the entire planet to the teetering brink of economic failure. Even the most staunch socialist (which Obama is not) knows action must be taken immediately to put things back on stabile footing. But it has to be responsible action, and that includes increasing revenue as well as responsible cuts to expenditures. The United States enjoys the lowest tax rates in 60 years which has been a primary cause for the debt and deficit along with out of control spending. Both need to be fixed because both are responsible for the problem. The debt will not pay itself off.

The Tea Party is not playing with fire so much as with high explosives. This is not 1776, 1865 or even 1972. The world wide economic catastrophe that would result today from a United States incapable of paying its debt is not worth the satisfaction they would get from causing it.

[AEROBAT]

Rockie, a bailout of Saskatchewan? Quebec has been on a permanent "bailout" for 40 years. The corporate tax rates are higher in the US than they are in Canada.

If printing money solved debt problems Zimbabwe would be paradise.

[Rockie]

Rockie, a bailout of Saskatchewan? Quebec has been on a permanent "bailout" for 40 years.

You need to learn the difference between default/rescue and political largesse.

Read up on how Saskatchewan went bankrupt in the early 90's and had to be secretly rescued by the federal government. Then you'll understand why not only the Liberals discovered fiscal responsibility but the Saskatchewan NDP government as well.

Who is going to "rescue" the United States?

[System Message]

Obama's views on politics do not matter and if conservative Americans fixate on him they will have only starred at a tumbled artificial horizon until the crash. Obama is the public figurehead of George Soros and nothing more. George is already set to profit from a devaued American dollar and the worse it crashes the more he will profit. On September 16, 1992, he made a billion dollars in one day by betting against the Bank of England and the pound sterling. In July 1997, he contributed to the Southeast Asian financial crisis by shorting the Thai baht. In early 2000, he supposedly suffered losses on tech stocks, but some analysts now suggest that the burn of the NASDAQ was controlled and that Soros helped to start the fire. By last November, he was betting the U.S. dollar would plummet. As the London Independent reported (November 28, 2003), his activities were contributing to a growing belief on Wall Street that the dollar would slide even further. The Tea Party does not want a crash they want responsible budgets. The sooner spending is brought under control the less it will hurt. Obama and his master cannot borrow another $4,000,000,000,000.00.

[AEROBAT]

Who is going to "rescue" the United States?

Good point, the amount of money is so huge nobody can and attempting to do so by creating yet more debt is pointless and only delaying the inevitable.

There actually is a real economy that is not centered around flipping bad mortgages or creating "jobs" by hiring more civil servants.

[crazy_aviator]

This is why Ford's promise, and that of many "c"onservatives... is a sham. Just by the nature of government, its spending is pretty much open to scrutiny 24/7. Which is why, whether it is the Liberal sponsorship, or Tony Clement's Constituency, or the G20.... the public pretty soon gets to know about it and evaluate its relative merit. So I doubt very much that there is that much wholesale "waste" that can be easily cut. Oh sure, there will always be some, but not in the sort of amounts that would go very far to solving Obama's OR Ford's deficit problem.

AND what about the 1.2 BILLION long gun registry,,,where is the accountability,,what about the helicopter cancellation of Cretien? NO, it doesnt work the way you think it does !!!

[Rockie]

Good point, the amount of money is so huge nobody can and attempting to do so by creating yet more debt is pointless and only delaying the inevitable.

Correct insofar as a rescue is concerned. The only way to get rid of the debt is by Americans paying it off, which cannot be done without first eliminating the deficit. Now how do you suppose that should occur? If you have debt in your household can you pay it down by doing without food and lodging, or do you actually have to have a job and some income as well?

The debt was incurred on behalf of every single American who wanted something but didn't want to pay for it. Well, now it's time to pay for it. In a society that means taxes.

You don't want to see what happens if the United States defaults.

[System Message]

The debt got out of hand because a government job is offered to anyone who wants one. It's time to say you're fired.

[robertsailor1]

Certainly a balancing act. Government has to cut spending because taxes can't be raised enough to make up for the amount of deficit. It really is a tough road to hoe because the big part of government spending is health care and other entitlements. After that comes the military, a sacred cow for the Americans. Its between those 2 areas that cuts have to come from. I can see them privatizing a large part of what is now Government, probably not a lot of choice.

Here on the local front we have to see some major cuts in Government spending as well because there is no more room to tax so the deficit is going to have to paid from cuts to Government services. It will be interesting to see if the C will make the tough choices in a timely fashion.