How safe is Air Travel in Yellowknife?

[Kzanol]

I would say it has nothing to do with the lack of experienced pilots or AMEs. NWO is full of young people getting their hands at the controls of airplanes. This summer there was an incredible amount flying completed with the massive fire blitz we had, and there were no accidents or incidents. I don't even remember a CADOR. In Red Lake we were dealing with smoke down to 1-2 miles, high winds, and very high temperatures for days. Helicopters and aircraft departing every minute all day long from a small 5 mile MF control zone. I know that Sioux Lookout, Pickle Lake and Kenora were also very similar. I think this recent chain of accidents in the North cannot be blamed on inexperienced pilots or AMEs.

[1&2SpooledUp]

Operating on the edge of the limits poses a greater risk than operating well below. Northern flying is very demanding (long days, unpredictable weather, uncontrolled airspace,) and unless you've done it it's hard to have an appreciation for it. You can't compare it to flying say from Edmonton to Calgary where center leads the way and then you shoot the ILS onto 16 to be greeted by your ramp crew that unloads your plane while you zip inside to grab a coffee and chat with the check in agents (before you give me grief, I've done it 1000 times). Its a different world up there. TC should be focusing on how to make it safer. Yes I agree 100% that the duty limits need to change and maybe they should start with the Northern Operators first.

Its time things changed and we are the only ones that can make that happen!

[CAN_Yeager]

Some people have brought up some very good issues here. One I would like to apologize for the title of this post, maybe it should be what should we being doing to make flying in places like Yellowknife safer. As for the timing of my post I will not apologize for. Now is the time that it is fresh in everyone's mind and now is the time that more then I few pilots and AME's are wondering if things should have been done better.

These events are tragic! And the only way to prevent them from happening again is to open up some discussion. SMS has been rammed down are throats hard, if you have not heard TC's goal of Delegation of Authority away from the Ministry you have not been paying attention. The old away of standards and regulations created by TC to insure safety are diminishing. Transport is moving so slow these days, you should not be sitting back and and waiting for an investigation report or a finding before you start thinking that should be making some improvements.

TC started with awareness of Human Factors to get operators thinking for themselves and now with SMS there are saying you know what the risks are better than us make your own polices and insure safety on your own. I will play Devils advocate her for second by saying TC is trying to have a more proactive approach. Most of the standards and regulations now in force now have been payed for in blood by people who found out the hard way on how things should be done.

Now let me talk about the SMS system, does it work. Here is my opinion.
For all the little things yes it works, it forces AMO's and operators to look at trends and measures risks of reoccurring SMS reported items. For example purchasing proper tools companies my have been reluctant to purchase before due to cost. The making of polices for difficult tasks repeatedly found to done improperly and so on. Where SMS fails completely is it relies on the nature of the SMS reports themselves from the personal working there. How many of us have sat through useless SMS reports regarding where to smoke cigarettes or who is responsible for cleaning up a mess or other reports that should not even belong in a Occupational Health and Safety report. I have been in SMS meeting where I wanted to stand up and scream “If we need to make a policy on this issue we need to start firing people.”

Where SMS really lacks is the total lack of SMS reporting the important issues. Pilot fatigue, an AMO taking on work or contracts they don't have the skills or the resources to complete properly. When was last time you ever heard an SMS report questioning management. The answer is simple never. None punitive yeah right. And what is the scope of none punitive mean the employer to the worker, TC to worker you can bet your @$$ none punitive will not hold up in court if it came to it. Go ahead and try that argument if you ever find yourself standing up being judged by 12.

My original post called into question experience of pilots and AME's up there. Here is a fact I will throw in, some people up there are people that got fired or did not pass three months probation, they were found to be untrainable. Now let me also say this, there are some very fine pilots and AME's working up in Yellowknife some of best I have ever seen. I just hope they have the time in there very busy schedules to keep a very close eye on their trainees.

If you don't believe me try asking an new pilot where he has to report defects on the aircraft and ask him if he has to by law. Ask a new structures person how big of patch he can install on aircraft and where to find that information on structures repair manual. Ask a Avionics person if that new installation requires a STC and what is the criteria for find out a STC is needed. Ask a maintenance AME if they know how to look up SDR's and AD's that may be applicable to the aircraft they are working on. (AD's are the owners responsibility yes I know but what if the owner is the operator) are they looking and can they find the information. Do your homework before you blast me.

As for Safety in Yellowknife or places like it, it is up to us to make it right. If your waiting TC to take action keep waiting. Use SMS as the tool it was intended and report the hard questions. I suggest typing them and not using your name if your really going to report something that is going to cause a stir. Operators and AMO's have to acknowledge them that is something I am sure TC will actually take action on. Also join in the discussion on this post SMS only works within your own company and they only way to open discussions that we can all learn from is by participating in forums. If you waiting for action based SDR's or TC keep waiting.

[Jean-Pierre]

It's completely random. Tragic, but random. There is no problem with northern aviation.

This is bury your head in sand thought. Low visibility and airplanes end up in top of hills. Random? No problem there?
There is cowboy mentality across the north even to this day. They get away with it in NWO because it's flat. Even if that is not cause of these crash it will be the cause of future crash. The solution has to come from owners and CP saying "I don't want you out in that crap." Instead they push out the door for $$$. Maybe no raise. Maybe no upgrade. Most don't come right out and say fly or you are fired. If they say instead "Push the weather and you're fired." everything changes.

[WileyCoyote]

I don't understand how people can think SMS is a great idea. I mean, look how great self regulation worked for the American finance industry. Industries need regulation and enforcement, or greed takes over...

[CAN_Yeager]

I can not agree more completely, however our government is not concentrating on more regulation they are going completely the other direction. They have invested an enormous amount of time and money into SMS. So much so it has put most of the other regulatory issues on the back burner. There are many in Ottawa that think once SMS is fully implemented across Canada that regulation by the Ministry can be cut back significantly. That is scary if you ask me. However if our government is going in that direction and we can't stop them. So we better make the only tool they gave us work.

[godsrcrazy]

Condolences to all involved in all 3 major accidents.

It appears the latest Air Tindi accident will be chalked up to CFIT. One would wonder how much experience this pilot had and why he would be flying under the cloud in an IFR certified aircraft?

As for SMS it was invented as a way of MOT shedding blame.

[CAN_Yeager]

If that is true it's makes a good argument for installing TAWS. I have no doubt if it was CFIT then TAWS would have prevented this accident.

I would caution you on your use of "IFR certified aircraft", it's not like some stamp you can paint on the aircraft that makes all IFR flights possible regardless of who is flying and where they are going. There are a lot of factors involved in deciding if an IFR flight plan can be made and aircraft equipment are just some of the considerations.

[sueonkent]

Well that answers just about everything on accidents around Yellowknife,except the Pilots decision making skills at the time.How much effort do we put into making the right decision when all the pressures on.Isnt that part of the problem.