Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
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Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
On first blush it may appear as nepotism. I don't think you understand why this concentration happens.
These 8 schools consult with the airline industry and create syllabus that fulfill what airlines are looking for. Other colleges and programs may not. The syllabus maybe more or less than the "8", but they have not joined this group to show compliance.
We are starting to see the results of the degree bubble. To many degrees with no direct application. Yes, an aeronautics degree may have direct application, but in this field only. The college grads from the "8" have a concentrated program, reviewed and checked that studies ALL of the areas the airlines are looking for.
For anyone reading this thread that wants to be an airline pilot. Don't fight some sort of personal war with what you think is fair, go out and apply to the school that offers you the best chance to get an airline job. Applied programs, concentrated and specific to the end job will be the future.
As a side note, the programs themselves are evolving in sync with the need for specific job training.
Selkirk used to make pilots take calculus. Not for any application in flying, but as a weeding tool. The syllabus is now filled with directly applicable courses to being a pilot. This mirrors what is happening to general degrees with no specific job training. They are going the way of the dodo...
These 8 schools consult with the airline industry and create syllabus that fulfill what airlines are looking for. Other colleges and programs may not. The syllabus maybe more or less than the "8", but they have not joined this group to show compliance.
We are starting to see the results of the degree bubble. To many degrees with no direct application. Yes, an aeronautics degree may have direct application, but in this field only. The college grads from the "8" have a concentrated program, reviewed and checked that studies ALL of the areas the airlines are looking for.
For anyone reading this thread that wants to be an airline pilot. Don't fight some sort of personal war with what you think is fair, go out and apply to the school that offers you the best chance to get an airline job. Applied programs, concentrated and specific to the end job will be the future.
As a side note, the programs themselves are evolving in sync with the need for specific job training.
Selkirk used to make pilots take calculus. Not for any application in flying, but as a weeding tool. The syllabus is now filled with directly applicable courses to being a pilot. This mirrors what is happening to general degrees with no specific job training. They are going the way of the dodo...
Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
Cookie.Quan wrote: These college aviation programs are on an academic level well below that of grade 12. Or so I've been told by some of the grads.
That's where you are wrong, if you were listening to some of these grads. Aviation Colleges require a higher mark percentage to even apply and get in. Once you are there, if you put aside the 'hidden' fail/pass percentage of making it to year 2 or 3, you have to maintain your marks at a higher percentage then other school grads, and aviation subjects were required to be passed at least at 70% (some places even more). I remember taking the final exam in one aviation related class which carried the weight of 80% (!) of your final mark, and if you failed it you automatically disqualify from continuing the program, regardless if you had straight A's in all other courses. We lost half the class before our first Christmas break was over. And I don't need to remind you that you are also constantly taking flight lessons beside your academic load, and they too have a criteria which you have to follow or you will flunk as well. And there is no coming back to re-do it again next semester. Needless to say we went from 57 members to 21 by the end of the program. That's why you get extra point on AC's scale versus other community colleges.
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Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
I agree that in any company there are politics and favoritism but nobody should “suck it up” & be management’s foot stool. When contract negotiations are due you are going to be begging people like Cookie.Quan with advanced academics to fight for the little guys so you don’t become the corner butcher’s bi***.TheSuit wrote:Who cares? Pilots fly airplanes, they don't design them or perform open heart surgery on pax.Cookie.Quan wrote:Canada is home to some of the best universities in the entire world and it seems a bit odd that there is no emphasis on acquiring an education in business, science or going on to obtain a masters degree.
And you may not be aware of this, but did you know many large investment banks prefer Harvard Business School grads? I've also heard many software firms like to hire Stanford engineering graduates. Maybe you'd like to get a slot on 60 minutes - or wait, probably the Daily Show - and expose this elitist conspiracy for what it really is. Maybe Julian Assange or Micheal Moore would help take up your crusade.
Or, maybe you could just suck it up and realize there are politics and favoritism in the real world, get your experience up, and stop acting like a snooty brat no one would want to fly with.
Haven’t you read Maclean’s cover story “Can Your Pilot Really Fly Your Plane?” or Michael Moore’s “Do You Want Airline Pilots to Be Working Two Jobs"? The general public and media are already questioning this new clique’s skill set & frankly I’m personally questioning to fly with AC now seeing the new hire’s handle in SIM.
But who cares right? Totally. We just fly airplanes. High five TheSuit!! We don’t need business guys with pilot license to stand behind us or lawyers that are pilots too who have knowledge to defend us when our company is muscling us down as individuals. Let’s all hold hands and work for free because of pilots like YOU!!
If users like Cookie are a snooty brat, I don’t know who you are fooling with your cheap suit.
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Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
It is nepotism. Except for the fact AC does not hire AC’s off-spring. Musselmen, Legge & Allen approved of course.MeAndMrPenguin wrote:On first blush it may appear as nepotism. I don't think you understand why this concentration happens.
Are you serious? MAYBE it’s because they don’t want to hire anyone that will man-handle their positions. Do you really think the three stooges are going to hire anyone who will challenge their cushy seat with airline connections? They would rather run the airline to the ground as we are all seeing.MeAndMrPenguin wrote:These 8 schools consult with the airline industry and create syllabus that fulfill what airlines are looking for. Other colleges and programs may not. The syllabus maybe more or less than the "8", but they have not joined this group to show compliance.
We are starting to see the results of the degree bubble. To many degrees with no direct application. Yes, an aeronautics degree may have direct application, but in this field only. The college grads from the "8" have a concentrated program, reviewed and checked that studies ALL of the areas the airlines are looking for.
For anyone reading this thread that wants to be an airline pilot. Don't fight some sort of personal war with what you think is fair, go out and apply to the school that offers you the best chance to get an airline job. Applied programs, concentrated and specific to the end job will be the future.
As a side note, the programs themselves are evolving in sync with the need for specific job training.
In my days, we had pilots with every degree in the book. To claim these “MaGiC EiGhT” are the best of the best is absolute BS.
The real “weeding tool” is on the director’s desk. It’s called their “ego”. I heard it’s contagious.MeAndMrPenguin wrote:Selkirk used to make pilots take calculus. Not for any application in flying, but as a weeding tool. The syllabus is now filled with directly applicable courses to being a pilot. This mirrors what is happening to general degrees with no specific job training. They are going the way of the dodo...

Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
Your arrogance is insulting. Okay; you have an engineering degree. I think everyone in here got that.
I know plenty of smart people who have gone through college diploma programs, and that's it. Is there anything wrong with that? One got 95% average in high school, while the other wasn't able to make it in the industry, so they went back to University and became a Lawyer. Would you consider these people unintelligent in your infinite, engineering wisdom?
I don't understand your logic either. How does having an engineering degree help you become a better pilot? You comparison between the two is accurate; yes an engineering degree is harder than a community college program, but a community college program is harder than a mom and pop flight school. Air Canada realizes that, and they can choose accordingly. It is their right to do so. The Director you speak of knows schools like Selkirk and Seneca, as he has connections with them, which you pointed out, and knows they graduate good pilots, which as a result is why they are on the list.
Personally, I would rather have a Selkirk graduate as a pilot, who is a balanced and bright personal, and who learned to fly from a reputable school, rather than a engineering degree prick, who believes he on a so much higher level than anyone else, that when he doesn't get hired, he throws a hissy-fit.
Honestly, despite you having a masters in engineering, your arrogance is extremely childish, saying that community college graduates shouldn't be allowed near cars let alone planes. I accept people for who they are; their dreams and aspirations aren't the same as mine. Yes, if I wanted to become a doctor, I would probably go to a top school to study science, while conversely, if I wanted to become a plumber, I would try picking up the trade now, and never go to university. What we choose to do in our life reflects our goals, which reflect our backgrounds. There are smart and dumb people in every profession. Piloting doesn't require a university degree, or even a college diploma for that matter. Piloting requires skill, expertise, and experience. That being said, a diploma is good enough for this industry, and it is specifically tailored to the job. That is why people choose it.
There are smart, intelligent people everywhere, who all just have goals and choose to go to certain post-secondary institutions and programs accordingly. Not everyone needs a PhD to do what they want, some just need a diploma. Does that make them less intelligent?
Please explain to me how listening to a professor preach his words, memorizing those words, then regurgitating those words onto a piece of paper called a "test" makes you any better of a pilot than someone who went to a college program specifically based around their dream career.
You have to look past the post-secondary institution, and look more at the program. Hate to break it to you, but aviation diploma programs are hard. So stop being an ignorant, arrogant prick, and learn something useful; being a well rounded, mature person, who views people for who they are and values their intelligence. That is who I want to see flying my airplane.
That being said, I do agree that University programs should be on there. If you have completed one, it proves that you know how to learn and how to work hard, which is what airlines should rank up with college diplomas. What I really hate about your posts though, as you can probably tell, is how you treat community college kids like idiots, which couldn't be farther from the case in aviation.
I know plenty of smart people who have gone through college diploma programs, and that's it. Is there anything wrong with that? One got 95% average in high school, while the other wasn't able to make it in the industry, so they went back to University and became a Lawyer. Would you consider these people unintelligent in your infinite, engineering wisdom?
I don't understand your logic either. How does having an engineering degree help you become a better pilot? You comparison between the two is accurate; yes an engineering degree is harder than a community college program, but a community college program is harder than a mom and pop flight school. Air Canada realizes that, and they can choose accordingly. It is their right to do so. The Director you speak of knows schools like Selkirk and Seneca, as he has connections with them, which you pointed out, and knows they graduate good pilots, which as a result is why they are on the list.
Personally, I would rather have a Selkirk graduate as a pilot, who is a balanced and bright personal, and who learned to fly from a reputable school, rather than a engineering degree prick, who believes he on a so much higher level than anyone else, that when he doesn't get hired, he throws a hissy-fit.
Honestly, despite you having a masters in engineering, your arrogance is extremely childish, saying that community college graduates shouldn't be allowed near cars let alone planes. I accept people for who they are; their dreams and aspirations aren't the same as mine. Yes, if I wanted to become a doctor, I would probably go to a top school to study science, while conversely, if I wanted to become a plumber, I would try picking up the trade now, and never go to university. What we choose to do in our life reflects our goals, which reflect our backgrounds. There are smart and dumb people in every profession. Piloting doesn't require a university degree, or even a college diploma for that matter. Piloting requires skill, expertise, and experience. That being said, a diploma is good enough for this industry, and it is specifically tailored to the job. That is why people choose it.
There are smart, intelligent people everywhere, who all just have goals and choose to go to certain post-secondary institutions and programs accordingly. Not everyone needs a PhD to do what they want, some just need a diploma. Does that make them less intelligent?
Please explain to me how listening to a professor preach his words, memorizing those words, then regurgitating those words onto a piece of paper called a "test" makes you any better of a pilot than someone who went to a college program specifically based around their dream career.
You have to look past the post-secondary institution, and look more at the program. Hate to break it to you, but aviation diploma programs are hard. So stop being an ignorant, arrogant prick, and learn something useful; being a well rounded, mature person, who views people for who they are and values their intelligence. That is who I want to see flying my airplane.
That being said, I do agree that University programs should be on there. If you have completed one, it proves that you know how to learn and how to work hard, which is what airlines should rank up with college diplomas. What I really hate about your posts though, as you can probably tell, is how you treat community college kids like idiots, which couldn't be farther from the case in aviation.
Last edited by BTyyj on Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:58 am, edited 9 times in total.
I'm glad I'm not judgmental like all you smug, superficial idiots
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Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
Kid, I’m pretty darn old. So old I can confidently say I would rather have a complete prick on my right shoulder then some guy who uses Crest White Strips & is kind of personable when it comes to a real emergency.jackg737 wrote:Personally, I would rather have a Selkirk graduate as a pilot, who is a balanced and bright personal, and who learned to fly from a reputable school, rather than a engineering degree prick, who believes he on a so much higher level than anyone else, that when he doesn't get hired, he throws a hissy-fit.Cookie.Quan wrote:
If you find community college difficult, there is no way you should go near a motor vehicle let alone an airplane. The level of difficulty of some of the programs in universities are at a level you would not even understand. These college aviation programs are on an academic level well below that of grade 12. Or so I've been told by some of the grads. Last time I checked, the Air Force does not take direct entry pilots from community college. Last time I checked the Canadian Space Agency does not take direct entry astronauts from these college aviation programs. If you had attended university, you would realise how many smart people are out there. Also ask yourself this: how many community college grads from these aviation programs have run banks or investment firms? How many of them are research doctors working to cure a disease? I don't think there is any.
As I stated on another topic, you have absolutely no education. You took flying lessons. You did nothing that would even come close to comparing with a physics grad from Queens, or a chemistry grad from UBC, or an actuarial science grad from Western. Have fun trying to figure out what actuarial science is because I know you have know clue. Yet, you found community college flying lessons hard and there is a chance they are going to put you on a three hundred million dollar airplane with over three-hundred people. Why oh why would the Directors not want to choose an individual with twice the time you have and on top of that multiple degrees? With all the qualified /educated people that have applied and been rejected by the Directors, your post just helps to prove my point about the hiring process being completely screwed up. Really, you found community college flying lesson hard? Should anyone inform the flying public about this? Trust that there are much harder things out there.
This comment unfortunately reveals your age without stating it kid. Don’t ever give credit where it is not deserved & don't speak of any one you have not known.jackg737 wrote:Maybe the Air Canada Director is smarter than you think he is,
If you keep comparing yourself to others you will never get anywhere. Accomplish something & then open your mouth. I also don’t think your parents would appreciate it very much that you have revealed so much about yourself on these forum when big brother, or in kid-lingo “potential employer’s hiring agents and affiliates”, are always watching all users on these threads. I, myself can read all your postings and can get a good idea as to who you are.jackg737 wrote:I am posting this as someone who is looking into going down both the engineering route and/or the diploma route. My marks in high school would allow me to go basically anywhere, studying anything, including Eng.Sci at U of T. People like you though make me not want to go to these University programs though. I currently just started going to a private school, after previously being at a public high school. Many of my current classmates are from rich families, who drive R8s to schools and who's dads own oil companies. Many of these kids are planning to go off to Richard Ivey at Western, BSc (Pre-med) at McGill, etc. I have no respect though for many of these elitist assholes, who you seem to resemble so much. You are under some false impression that University makes people smart, and that people who don't go to Ivey programs are just scum. You ignorance tells me that you yourself probably came from an ignorant, rich, elitest family, who I have no respect for.
Rich kids are good kids too, believe me. In fact, they are probably the people’s kids you are trying to suck up too like the Director’s. Actually if you are already kissing a** now you are going to love working for free on some ramp up North. But don't worry, you went to private school so your mother and father can supplement your income.
I hope my kids will never grow up to resemble such a righteous, naïve person like yourself. What Cookie is trying to say between the lines, that's if you can keep your emotions out of it, is that this is reality kid. Now a days, I would never recommend someone to be a pilot. It’s not worth the money when you have a family. Talk to any pilot now & they will all agree they wish they had another career to fall on too. It is people with supplementary career options that you are going to go graveling too when sh** hits the fan.
& my favorite comment of all,
Why don't you visit AC, WJ or Jazz & state how all those folks are not able to do the same job & see how far you get because there is a few thousand of us. So watch your mouth son.jackg737 wrote:a community college program is a lot harder than a mom and pop flight school, where you can basically dish out money for a license.
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Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
Interesting reading.
I have been looking at all these opinions and decided to check back ad see exactly when I started flying internationally for a living....among my " stuff " in my collection of licenses and authorizations allowing me to fly aircraft registered in various countries I found an old international certificate of vaccination for smallpox.
It was issued on Dec 07 / 1974 in the Republic of Panama.
I retired from flying in 2005 and managed to get to fly most everything and work for some of the largest and best aviation companies on the planet.
As to education I never went beyond grade eight......so obviously formal education is not a slam dunk requirement to be able to fly an airplane.
Anyhow, carry on, I just thought I would comment to give another perspective on this subject.
I have been looking at all these opinions and decided to check back ad see exactly when I started flying internationally for a living....among my " stuff " in my collection of licenses and authorizations allowing me to fly aircraft registered in various countries I found an old international certificate of vaccination for smallpox.
It was issued on Dec 07 / 1974 in the Republic of Panama.
I retired from flying in 2005 and managed to get to fly most everything and work for some of the largest and best aviation companies on the planet.
As to education I never went beyond grade eight......so obviously formal education is not a slam dunk requirement to be able to fly an airplane.
Anyhow, carry on, I just thought I would comment to give another perspective on this subject.

The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
This isn't a valid response to anything in my post.The Right Stuff wrote:I agree that in any company there are politics and favoritism but nobody should “suck it up” & be management’s foot stool
You don't need lawyers and accountants flying the line, you need them negotiating your contracts. That is why law firms and consulting practices exist.The Right Stuff wrote:When contract negotiations are due you are going to be begging people like Cookie.Quan with advanced academics to fight for the little guys so you don’t become the corner butcher’s bi***
Then why would you want to send them for legal degrees and MBAs instead of more flight training? This is completely incongruent with your original argument.The Right Stuff wrote: I’m personally questioning to fly with AC now seeing the new hire’s handle in SIM
I'm not sure what the argument is here. Pilots fly airplanes sounds like a logical and correct assertion. I don't know many pilots who are required to perform brain surgery, take cases to trial, develop market analysis, or calculate fluid dynamics while in flight. Maybe in an emergency situation he will need to start hand calculating the Bernoulli equation?The Right Stuff wrote: We just fly airplanes

I'm not a pilot.The Right Stuff wrote:Let’s all hold hands and work for free because of pilots like YOU
Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
And Peyton Manning throws a pretty tight spiral without a physics degree. This thread is ridiculous.Cat Driver wrote:As to education I never went beyond grade eight......so obviously formal education is not a slam dunk requirement to be able to fly an airplane.
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Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
...then why do you keep posting on it?TheSuit wrote:This thread is ridiculous.

Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
Fair enough; to each their own.Kid, I’m pretty darn old. So old I can confidently say I would rather have a complete prick on my right shoulder then some guy who uses Crest White Strips & is kind of personable when it comes to a real emergency.
I don't see where I did that.If you keep comparing yourself to others you will never get anywhere
I have accomplished getting accepted into these programs that the initial poster has gone through.Accomplish something & then open your mouth.
You're right; I was angry and I made a bad point. There are some kids that feel they own the world, and I was picking them out of the bunch as an example, which is incorrect. Most of them are perfectly nice people. And no, I will be paying for post-secondary mostly myself; not all private school kids are rich.Rich kids are good kids too, believe me. In fact, they are probably the people’s kids you are trying to suck up too like the Director’s. Actually if you are already kissing a** now you are going to love working for free on some ramp up North. But don't worry, you went to private school so your mother and father can supplement your income.
How am I righteous? I worked hard to get the marks and that is that. It's not like I am getting some sort of free ride here. And naive? I was defending the other side of the argument with what was suppose to be a more balanced opinion, although I took it too far. Honestly, I agree with both sides of the argument, and I have the right to do so, especially on a online forum. Yeah, I don't have much flying experience, but it isn't hard to figure out this industry; there are so many routes it is impossible to say which one is the best. Many pilots I know in person (not on these online forums, where people blackmail each other) have many different opinions. There are probably pilots on here who would agree and disagree with me.I hope my kids will never grow up to resemble such a righteous, naïve person like yourself.
I agree that a degree or a supplementary career is the right way to go, but I think saying that aviation college graduates are all dumb and not good pilots is completely uncalled for and inaccurate. That was my entire point!
Yeah, I may be overly opinionated given my current position, although I do have a basic understanding of the industry. I have a right to my opinion, and I am smart enough to understand the inner-workings. I do however know more about this than the general public, which is who you guys seem to want to please anyways.
I don't even know why we had this argument though, because I think we are on the same page. I just think that looking down on college diploma graduates is a bit arrogant, especially when most of them are smart people and good pilots.
Why don't you visit AC, WJ or Jazz & state how college grads "shouldn't go near a motor vehicle let alone an airplane" and see how far you get, because not only will you be dissing college grads, but also mom and pop flight school after high school guys too. Yeah my comment wasn't exactly fair, but are you seriously going to call me out after all the $hit cookie said?jackg737 wrote:
a community college program is a lot harder than a mom and pop flight school, where you can basically dish out money for a license.
Why don't you visit AC, WJ or Jazz & state how all those folks are not able to do the same job & see how far you get because there is a few thousand of us. So watch your mouth son.
This thread is ridiculous; created by an egotistical, elitest, University grad who came on these forums to whine after not getting a job, and diss all those who did. I understand cookie; that's the only way you'll feel better.
Cheers
Last edited by BTyyj on Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:44 pm, edited 6 times in total.
I'm glad I'm not judgmental like all you smug, superficial idiots
Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
Airline Finds Pilots At Pilot School
Montreal- Local employer Air Canada stated recently that the best place to find pilots to fly it's airplanes is from one of the 8 professional pilot schools located across the country. Last summer, the airline was forced to cancel a number of flights due to a lack of pilots. Despite canvassing veterinary colleges, medical schools, and the U of T faculty of engineering, no experienced pilots could be found. Spokesperson Peter Fitzpatrick said yesterday, "We tried everything; I drove my pickup truck to the local day labourer pickup spot to try to find somebody to operate flight 787 to LAX, and not one person had a the thousands of hours of flying experience and the Airbus A320 type rating that is required to carry out the job function legally, let alone safely. Boy were the passengers pissed when we had to tell them to go home." Due to the large number of baby boomers soon to be reaching retirement age, there is forecast to be a need for hundreds of pilots to replace ones that are retiring. This poses a difficult problem for the airlines, which are looking everywhere to find new recruits. At a recent brainstorming session, senior flight operations management at Air Canada hit upon an innovative strategy that is so crazy, it just might work. The airline will now search for people who are not only ambulatory and literate, but who have also attended an accredited post-secondary institution that specializes in training pilots. Senior Vice President of Flight Operations Rick Allen believes they may have this problem solved once and for all, "Pilots at pilot schools, gawd I hope this works." An additional strategy is in the early stages of experimental development that would have the airline also seeking out pilots presently working for smaller, rival firms. "I wonder if we should talk to some of those guys over there?", said Allen, pointing to two men exiting a turboprop aircraft parked across the tarmac wearing pilot uniforms, "I wonder if those guys know any pilots? Boy I hope so."
Montreal- Local employer Air Canada stated recently that the best place to find pilots to fly it's airplanes is from one of the 8 professional pilot schools located across the country. Last summer, the airline was forced to cancel a number of flights due to a lack of pilots. Despite canvassing veterinary colleges, medical schools, and the U of T faculty of engineering, no experienced pilots could be found. Spokesperson Peter Fitzpatrick said yesterday, "We tried everything; I drove my pickup truck to the local day labourer pickup spot to try to find somebody to operate flight 787 to LAX, and not one person had a the thousands of hours of flying experience and the Airbus A320 type rating that is required to carry out the job function legally, let alone safely. Boy were the passengers pissed when we had to tell them to go home." Due to the large number of baby boomers soon to be reaching retirement age, there is forecast to be a need for hundreds of pilots to replace ones that are retiring. This poses a difficult problem for the airlines, which are looking everywhere to find new recruits. At a recent brainstorming session, senior flight operations management at Air Canada hit upon an innovative strategy that is so crazy, it just might work. The airline will now search for people who are not only ambulatory and literate, but who have also attended an accredited post-secondary institution that specializes in training pilots. Senior Vice President of Flight Operations Rick Allen believes they may have this problem solved once and for all, "Pilots at pilot schools, gawd I hope this works." An additional strategy is in the early stages of experimental development that would have the airline also seeking out pilots presently working for smaller, rival firms. "I wonder if we should talk to some of those guys over there?", said Allen, pointing to two men exiting a turboprop aircraft parked across the tarmac wearing pilot uniforms, "I wonder if those guys know any pilots? Boy I hope so."
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Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
The removal of students was due to lack of performance based on marks. This was achieved through a posted policy that everyone was aware of.The Right Stuff wrote:It is nepotism. Except for the fact AC does not hire AC’s off-spring. Musselmen, Legge & Allen approved of course.MeAndMrPenguin wrote:On first blush it may appear as nepotism. I don't think you understand why this concentration happens.
nepotism (ˈnɛpəˌtɪzəm)
—n
favouritism shown to relatives or close friends by those with power or influence
You must mean that favouritism is not helping your child get a job...I am confused. (Actually there was some nepotism, but also some games with some "brats" that did not get hired.)
Are you serious? MAYBE it’s because they don’t want to hire anyone that will man-handle their positions. Do you really think the three stooges are going to hire anyone who will challenge their cushy seat with airline connections? They would rather run the airline to the ground as we are all seeing.MeAndMrPenguin wrote:These 8 schools consult with the airline industry and create syllabus that fulfill what airlines are looking for. Other colleges and programs may not. The syllabus maybe more or less than the "8", but they have not joined this group to show compliance.
We are starting to see the results of the degree bubble. To many degrees with no direct application. Yes, an aeronautics degree may have direct application, but in this field only. The college grads from the "8" have a concentrated program, reviewed and checked that studies ALL of the areas the airlines are looking for.
For anyone reading this thread that wants to be an airline pilot. Don't fight some sort of personal war with what you think is fair, go out and apply to the school that offers you the best chance to get an airline job. Applied programs, concentrated and specific to the end job will be the future.
As a side note, the programs themselves are evolving in sync with the need for specific job training.
In my days, we had pilots with every degree in the book. To claim these “MaGiC EiGhT” are the best of the best is absolute BS.
Never claimed that. I have no triple blind study to support that.
As for your conspiracy theory, I know pilots that have graduated from one of these eight after obtaining degrees. I have yet to see anyone of them tear a new one at the office. There is also many ex CAL pilots with degrees...no tearing there either. We must all be hopeless.
The real “weeding tool” is on the director’s desk. It’s called their “ego”. I heard it’s contagious.MeAndMrPenguin wrote:Selkirk used to make pilots take calculus. Not for any application in flying, but as a weeding tool. The syllabus is now filled with directly applicable courses to being a pilot. This mirrors what is happening to general degrees with no specific job training. They are going the way of the dodo...
Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
where is this article from ?Dockjock wrote:Airline Finds Pilots At Pilot School
Montreal- Local employer Air Canada stated recently that the best place to find pilots to fly it's airplanes is from one of the 8 professional pilot schools located across the country. Last summer, the airline was forced to cancel a number of flights due to a lack of pilots. Despite canvassing veterinary colleges, medical schools, and the U of T faculty of engineering, no experienced pilots could be found. Spokesperson Peter Fitzpatrick said yesterday, "We tried everything; I drove my pickup truck to the local day labourer pickup spot to try to find somebody to operate flight 787 to LAX, and not one person had a the thousands of hours of flying experience and the Airbus A320 type rating that is required to carry out the job function legally, let alone safely. Boy were the passengers pissed when we had to tell them to go home." Due to the large number of baby boomers soon to be reaching retirement age, there is forecast to be a need for hundreds of pilots to replace ones that are retiring. This poses a difficult problem for the airlines, which are looking everywhere to find new recruits. At a recent brainstorming session, senior flight operations management at Air Canada hit upon an innovative strategy that is so crazy, it just might work. The airline will now search for people who are not only ambulatory and literate, but who have also attended an accredited post-secondary institution that specializes in training pilots. Senior Vice President of Flight Operations Rick Allen believes they may have this problem solved once and for all, "Pilots at pilot schools, gawd I hope this works." An additional strategy is in the early stages of experimental development that would have the airline also seeking out pilots presently working for smaller, rival firms. "I wonder if we should talk to some of those guys over there?", said Allen, pointing to two men exiting a turboprop aircraft parked across the tarmac wearing pilot uniforms, "I wonder if those guys know any pilots? Boy I hope so."
I don't get this : they're starving for pilots and in the meantime narrowing the scope regarding background/degree. it makes no sense.
the last people (3) I heard to be hired by AC none of them had a school diploma... this thread is a mind-boggling bazaar.......
Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
Uuh, I think the article is a joke Scopiton... lol
I can see both sides of this argument. AC still prefers a post-secondary degree (from anywhere) or aviation diploma, and they have the right to choose what schools they prefer. Proven trainability is an important aspect of finding people with the right fit. However, although these eight programs may be wonderful, nobody should fool themselves into thinking they're the be-all and end-all. I flew with a number of grads from one of these schools that calls itself "the airline school", and none of these guys had ever been allowed to train in more than a 5 knot crosswind. Understanding advanced aerodynamics may be one marker of somebody who is intelligent and trainable;, but to me, letting your insurance company determine the flying conditions in which you train seems weak. And lets face it, nobody is reall going from these schools straight into an AC flight deck anytime soon.
I can see both sides of this argument. AC still prefers a post-secondary degree (from anywhere) or aviation diploma, and they have the right to choose what schools they prefer. Proven trainability is an important aspect of finding people with the right fit. However, although these eight programs may be wonderful, nobody should fool themselves into thinking they're the be-all and end-all. I flew with a number of grads from one of these schools that calls itself "the airline school", and none of these guys had ever been allowed to train in more than a 5 knot crosswind. Understanding advanced aerodynamics may be one marker of somebody who is intelligent and trainable;, but to me, letting your insurance company determine the flying conditions in which you train seems weak. And lets face it, nobody is reall going from these schools straight into an AC flight deck anytime soon.
Why's it doing that? No, THAT!
- Cookie.Quan
- Rank 0
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- Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:15 pm
- Location: Brampton, Ontario
Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
Maybe you should have lawyers and accountants flying on the line. When it comes time for negotiating they may be able to offer some pilot insight. I guess you could go hire Jack lawyer and Jill accountant, but the problem is they may not have adequate knowledge of the aviation industry, like yourself. The aviation college grads keep claiming this industry is too difficult for anyone to understand, so why would Jack lawyer and Jill accountant know what is going on? If you hired pilots with these qualifications, they might have a better understanding of the industry then some lawyer or accountant of the street. Do you really think that if you hire some random firm to do the negotiating on behalf of the pilot group that their interests are going to be the same as the pilots/other employees who work for the company? Maybe it is just me, but I think a lot of them just want to get paid and really don’t care about the outcome for the employees they represent. As far as dollars and cents go, don’t these firms usually ask for a lot of money? Like millions? Maybe the pilots could save some money and hire some accountants or lawyers with pilots’ licenses. Makes sense to me. But according to you,TheSuit wrote: You don't need lawyers and accountants flying the line, you need them negotiating your contracts. That is why law firms and consulting practices exist.
I guess the aviation college guys/girls don’t want pilot lawyers/accountants either because they are more interested in telling everyone that their programs are “hard” instead of earning money.TheSuit wrote: Who cares? Pilots fly airplanes, they don't design them or perform open heart surgery on pax.
If this is the way hiring is going to be, when it comes to negotiations management is going to have an easy time taking your wages, benefits and pensions. Maybe because you went to business school above a bowling alley, you might be able to offer the pilots some advice at a cheaper rate.
From a management standpoint maybe they should keep hiring college aviation grads since you people hate money that much!
Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
Cookie, obviously you had a great deal of financial support for your post-secondary education. Not everyone can afford getting a Bachelor and then Masters of Engineering while completing flight training. Does that make people who can't afford it any less intelligent? Your argument is extremely ignorant.
Last edited by BTyyj on Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm glad I'm not judgmental like all you smug, superficial idiots
Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
It isn't. The airline business is difficult because of the poor economics; how the business actually functions is no harder to understand than any other. If lawyers can figure out how the algorithm in a smart phone infringes on a patent or prove that a surgeon is not at fault for a death, they can figure out pairings and schedules. Someone obviously understands it because there are aviation laws and the bank sends pilots the correct paycheck every month.Cookie.Quan wrote:The aviation college grads keep claiming this industry is too difficult for anyone to understand, so why would Jack lawyer and Jill accountant know what is going on?
True, but they would have a much worse understanding of the law or finance.Cookie.Quan wrote:If you hired pilots with these qualifications, they might have a better understanding of the industry then some lawyer or accountant of the street
Here's what you aren't grasping; the airline pays pilots to fly airplanes. That's it. They hire accountants to do accounting. They hire law firms or lawyers for legal issues. They hire AMEs to wrench aircraft. You don't get paid for skills you don't apply.
- Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
Is it really true that one of these aviation colleges limit their students to five knot crosswinds during training?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
No.Cat Driver wrote:Is it really true that one of these aviation colleges limit their students to five knot crosswinds during training?
Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
Well, with these recent posts, in my book, there are at least six posters that I tip my hat to (ei: that make so much sense, a pleasure to read and are spot on )
In no particular order, I name
Turbo Beaver ( KG )
Thirteen North ( Ian )
Doug Moore
The Right Stuff
Raymond Hall
Mechanic787
Please keep it coming folks as it cuts thru the BS shoveled by many others
Duranium
NB: amended to add a few that were inadvertently omitted
In no particular order, I name
Turbo Beaver ( KG )
Thirteen North ( Ian )
Doug Moore
The Right Stuff
Raymond Hall
Mechanic787
Please keep it coming folks as it cuts thru the BS shoveled by many others
Duranium
NB: amended to add a few that were inadvertently omitted
Last edited by duranium on Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
- The Right Stuff
- Rank 0
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Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
Good Afternoon Duranium,duranium wrote:Well, with these recent posts, in my book, there are at least four posters that I tip my hat to (ei: that make so much sense, a pleasure to read and are spot on )
In no particular order, I name
Turbo Beaver ( KG )
Thirteen North ( Ian )
Doug Moore
The Right Stuff
Please keep it coming folks as it cuts thru the BS shoveled by many others
Duranium
Thank you for your response. Air Canada desperately needs change. I may not be around to see it, but I hope to hear about it one day that they hired some folks with a substantial background for a fresh take on things.
The three stooges were kids at one time too. Asking for help & were eager to learn. It’s when they rob those who were just like them of the same opportunity do we have to stand on our feet and take their lollipops away.
We are not exposing or revealing anything unknown. If they chose to be careless & make a common “gesture” to those that apply, like Cookie.Quan, people are going to take notice. & as a response to read, “…too bad, so sad” is discriminatory. He/she is not the first or will not be the last.
Go take a walk into their office. You will see the hoarders themselves with all the good applications they are hiding.
Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
I'm retired now ... got hired back in the early 70's.
I came from the Navy .... flew airplanes off the decks of ships .... chose to do that because landing an airplane on
something stationary (a land based runway) seemed a little on the side of being easy.
I started my training with the military as only one little guy in a course of 74 other prospective jockies.
By the time we had completed the full course there were 11 (only eleven) of us left who actually put the wings
up on the uniform. At the time (and I still do think) we were a pretty select group.
Most of the fellows who didn't make it had degrees from a variety of colleges and universities.
I wasn't nearly that "qualified" but still managed to make it through, which still to this day amazes me.
When it came time for me to leave the service and go to a civilian company it took less than 2 hours for me to actually
do the medical, do the interview, have coffee with the chief pilot-training and be offered the job.
Took less than 2 seconds to accept it.
After 6 years with the military, and 35 years with a civilian company, I reached the end of the road ....
and I must admit, after all that time, I was glad to finally be able to wake up in the morning and know I didn't
HAVE to go to the airport to take someone somewhere.
Interesting that all this is from a guy that completed high school, went direct entry into the Navy (to learn to fly no less,...
go figure) and retired after 41 years without incident.
I will forever be thankful to the fellow who gave me my intial interview ... along with the chief pilot who
"just happened to drop by" and asked for the 1 hour lecture on how to do deck landings. I gave it to him in 45 minutes.
I think in me they discovered a guy who's sole reason for being was to fly an airplane, who's
only real interest in life was how to do it and how to insure he kept doing it, better and better every time out.
You can have all the degrees in the world, attend every educational facility there is but still not have the passion and devotion
to make what I have done for 41 years your life's work.
Did you ever think for one minute that perhaps .... just perhaps .... the lack of those qualities, as opposed to
your interest in working for this one company for the money they pay and the time off they offer, could be
a detriment to your being hired?
I have seen it all before.
I have a very close acquaintance (a fellow pilot of 33 years, now retired) whose favourite comment was
"if I could find any job that paid what this pays and gives me the time off this one does
I'd do it".
My favourite answer was .."Then quit and let someone who really wants to do this take your place".
Air Canada is not the only place in the world where you can get a decent flying job. We had one fellow
who wasn't hired here and who ended up going to KLM. In order to do that he took
an immersion course in the Dutch language (you have to do your interview in Dutch) and he passed it.
Where there is a will there is a way.
In your case ... the same idea applies. Where there is a will ...etc.
Just because you have the credentials doesn't mean you have the exact qualities the comapny is looking for.
Look around and find something better (and believe me ... in this day and age there are
companies that are a lot better). When you find your niche be satisfied that you are doing what you've always wanted to do,
even if the doing isn't with Air Canada or in North America.
As they say ........ FWIW
I came from the Navy .... flew airplanes off the decks of ships .... chose to do that because landing an airplane on
something stationary (a land based runway) seemed a little on the side of being easy.
I started my training with the military as only one little guy in a course of 74 other prospective jockies.
By the time we had completed the full course there were 11 (only eleven) of us left who actually put the wings
up on the uniform. At the time (and I still do think) we were a pretty select group.
Most of the fellows who didn't make it had degrees from a variety of colleges and universities.
I wasn't nearly that "qualified" but still managed to make it through, which still to this day amazes me.
When it came time for me to leave the service and go to a civilian company it took less than 2 hours for me to actually
do the medical, do the interview, have coffee with the chief pilot-training and be offered the job.
Took less than 2 seconds to accept it.
After 6 years with the military, and 35 years with a civilian company, I reached the end of the road ....
and I must admit, after all that time, I was glad to finally be able to wake up in the morning and know I didn't
HAVE to go to the airport to take someone somewhere.
Interesting that all this is from a guy that completed high school, went direct entry into the Navy (to learn to fly no less,...
go figure) and retired after 41 years without incident.
I will forever be thankful to the fellow who gave me my intial interview ... along with the chief pilot who
"just happened to drop by" and asked for the 1 hour lecture on how to do deck landings. I gave it to him in 45 minutes.
I think in me they discovered a guy who's sole reason for being was to fly an airplane, who's
only real interest in life was how to do it and how to insure he kept doing it, better and better every time out.
You can have all the degrees in the world, attend every educational facility there is but still not have the passion and devotion
to make what I have done for 41 years your life's work.
Did you ever think for one minute that perhaps .... just perhaps .... the lack of those qualities, as opposed to
your interest in working for this one company for the money they pay and the time off they offer, could be
a detriment to your being hired?
I have seen it all before.
I have a very close acquaintance (a fellow pilot of 33 years, now retired) whose favourite comment was
"if I could find any job that paid what this pays and gives me the time off this one does
I'd do it".
My favourite answer was .."Then quit and let someone who really wants to do this take your place".
Air Canada is not the only place in the world where you can get a decent flying job. We had one fellow
who wasn't hired here and who ended up going to KLM. In order to do that he took
an immersion course in the Dutch language (you have to do your interview in Dutch) and he passed it.
Where there is a will there is a way.
In your case ... the same idea applies. Where there is a will ...etc.
Just because you have the credentials doesn't mean you have the exact qualities the comapny is looking for.
Look around and find something better (and believe me ... in this day and age there are
companies that are a lot better). When you find your niche be satisfied that you are doing what you've always wanted to do,
even if the doing isn't with Air Canada or in North America.
As they say ........ FWIW
Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
Yes, it's true. I've worked, learned, and flown with several people from this school over the past decade who've all chuckled about it. I should qualify that to say that they were crosswind-limited during solo training. At least they have a sense of humour about it.Is it really true that one of these aviation colleges limit their students to five knot crosswinds during training?
Why's it doing that? No, THAT!
Re: Air Canada's Questionable Hiring Process.
Cookie,
Maybe AC has problems reading cover letters that don't use paragraphs.
Or maybe your personality leaves something to be desired.
(Take a look at the attrition rates of some of the colleges before making such insulting blanket statements. There was a UoT engineering grad that didn't make the academic cut in the first semester of the "easy community college" when I was there.)
Maybe AC has problems reading cover letters that don't use paragraphs.
Or maybe your personality leaves something to be desired.
(Take a look at the attrition rates of some of the colleges before making such insulting blanket statements. There was a UoT engineering grad that didn't make the academic cut in the first semester of the "easy community college" when I was there.)