if you can't make it work with Canadian pilots you need a new business plan. any excuses to justify foreigners taking Canadian jobs are
bullshat, it's a fracking shame.
Grounding Foreign Pilots
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako
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Gino Under
- Rank 8
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- Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:06 pm
Re: Grounding Foreign Pilots
confuzed
I'm not blowing off imc's comments, nor do I necessarily consider them B.S.
For me it's simple. Canadian jobs for Canadians.
I don't give-a-sh*t what business it is. Think what you like, for sure. But I'm sick of pilots in this country reasoning and rationalizing the practice of foreign pilots taking the place of Canadians working in this country as some kind of unique situation or environment worthy of exceptions and special considerations either beyond our labour and immigration laws or silly loopholes broadened by political connections and backhanders. It's wrong.
My comments are NOT coming from complete ignorance on the charter market in Canada. I've flown for 3 of them that no longer exist. It's a bullsh*t business run by opportunists who jump on the opportunity to bring in seasonal foreign workers the same way a produce farmer in Aylmer does.
Why is comparing Sunwing to Canjet completely ridiculous? Regardless of the number of foreign pilots used by either company, it's wrong. Both can justify it. But that doesn't (nor should it) make it acceptable.
German labour laws make it difficult to lay people off. Well, I for one could care less about German labour law and unemployed or layed off German pilots. The number of airlines and flying jobs in Europe by far and away exceed the dinky Canadian market. I'd like to see our little market protected and what little opportunity there is for Canadian pilots to find a flying job. If it is impacting Transat Tours where the hell is ALPA? If Canjet are parties to this seasonal worker scheme, whatever the variation, where the hell is ALPA?
I'll tell you where ALPA is, it's an American Union and they could care less about Canadian pilots. You can paint ACPA with the same brush. Obviously SW and CJ pilots are focused on other issues like flying in Europe next summer and not wanting that opportunity jeopardized. Now there's a noble union cause.
As for those that think it can work to hire people for 6 months and lay them off - it can't. Yes it can.
Here is an example. Charter airline hires 35 pilots for the winter in August and starts GS and Sim which will take 2 months to complete. If it takes them that long to train 35 pilots then I'd say they need to come up with better crew planning, scheduling and a more robust syllabus.
There is no flying in October. Or November. Or December until the 17th of the month. Get the idea? It would be February before these pilots are online if not later as the other 90 pilots need to stay current as well.
Still sounds like they need to come up with better crew planning, scheduling and a more robust syllabus. Because, where there's a will there's a way.
Unfortunately these types of airlines NEED to hire rated people and do an abbreviated GS, 4 session sim and 2-4 legs of line indoc. There just isn't enough flying to make it work otherwise. If they hired and trained seasonal Canadian pilots they'd only have to do a six month recurrent when recalled on each and drop them back on line. Same. same.
This program needs to continue. Sorry, no it doesn't.
We need to look at how SSV dealt with it and work towards maintaining true reciprocity and what can maximize jobs for Canadian pilots. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. Why do we need to look at it? Only to justify it.
It's wrong.
What I'd like to determine, is whether or not these crews are on a wet lease or an individual contract via seasonal worker rules? There is a difference and could reduce the concern.
Gino
I'm not blowing off imc's comments, nor do I necessarily consider them B.S.
For me it's simple. Canadian jobs for Canadians.
I don't give-a-sh*t what business it is. Think what you like, for sure. But I'm sick of pilots in this country reasoning and rationalizing the practice of foreign pilots taking the place of Canadians working in this country as some kind of unique situation or environment worthy of exceptions and special considerations either beyond our labour and immigration laws or silly loopholes broadened by political connections and backhanders. It's wrong.
My comments are NOT coming from complete ignorance on the charter market in Canada. I've flown for 3 of them that no longer exist. It's a bullsh*t business run by opportunists who jump on the opportunity to bring in seasonal foreign workers the same way a produce farmer in Aylmer does.
Why is comparing Sunwing to Canjet completely ridiculous? Regardless of the number of foreign pilots used by either company, it's wrong. Both can justify it. But that doesn't (nor should it) make it acceptable.
German labour laws make it difficult to lay people off. Well, I for one could care less about German labour law and unemployed or layed off German pilots. The number of airlines and flying jobs in Europe by far and away exceed the dinky Canadian market. I'd like to see our little market protected and what little opportunity there is for Canadian pilots to find a flying job. If it is impacting Transat Tours where the hell is ALPA? If Canjet are parties to this seasonal worker scheme, whatever the variation, where the hell is ALPA?
I'll tell you where ALPA is, it's an American Union and they could care less about Canadian pilots. You can paint ACPA with the same brush. Obviously SW and CJ pilots are focused on other issues like flying in Europe next summer and not wanting that opportunity jeopardized. Now there's a noble union cause.
As for those that think it can work to hire people for 6 months and lay them off - it can't. Yes it can.
Here is an example. Charter airline hires 35 pilots for the winter in August and starts GS and Sim which will take 2 months to complete. If it takes them that long to train 35 pilots then I'd say they need to come up with better crew planning, scheduling and a more robust syllabus.
There is no flying in October. Or November. Or December until the 17th of the month. Get the idea? It would be February before these pilots are online if not later as the other 90 pilots need to stay current as well.
Still sounds like they need to come up with better crew planning, scheduling and a more robust syllabus. Because, where there's a will there's a way.
Unfortunately these types of airlines NEED to hire rated people and do an abbreviated GS, 4 session sim and 2-4 legs of line indoc. There just isn't enough flying to make it work otherwise. If they hired and trained seasonal Canadian pilots they'd only have to do a six month recurrent when recalled on each and drop them back on line. Same. same.
This program needs to continue. Sorry, no it doesn't.
We need to look at how SSV dealt with it and work towards maintaining true reciprocity and what can maximize jobs for Canadian pilots. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. Why do we need to look at it? Only to justify it.
It's wrong.
What I'd like to determine, is whether or not these crews are on a wet lease or an individual contract via seasonal worker rules? There is a difference and could reduce the concern.
Gino
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twolowflaps
- Rank 0
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:48 pm
Re: Grounding Foreign Pilots
You young bucks have now idea .Gino is bang on. I've been around along time...worldways...Nationair...then CP Air...thoughts were the days boys. Mainline, Air canada...CP Air...EPA...Nordair...I was there. Now the young guns not with Air Canada or Westjet flying for SW or CJ trying to tell us the charter way. 1 for 1? Let an old skipper give some advice. This is killing the Canadian airline industry. It's creeping into the mainline, i.e WJ wet lease. Whats next? Stand Up Men. Stop this Crazy wind fall. If you have a future in this Industry, you need to form and stop this. I can tell you, We would have never supported this as a pilot group then...why are you young aviators doing this to your selvees.You need to stand up for your profession.We would have never put up with this back in the 70s..80s...90s. You pilots need to stop and think What you doing to your profession and Industry...Dont give me any BS this is why excuses..
Last edited by twolowflaps on Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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gonnabeapilot
- Rank 4
- Posts: 217
- Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 2:39 am
Re: Grounding Foreign Pilots
You've mentioned this in several of your posts and you seem to find it much more acceptable I'm curious as to your stance on this.... Why is a wet lease of foreign crews different?? If a charter company brings over 140 seasonal contract workers to crew the 10 additional aircraft they've leased for the winter why is that bad but if the same charter company wet leases 10 additional aircraft with 7 crews per plane (so guess what, it's still 140 foreign workers) that's okay?? It's the same number of jobs that could go to Canadians being given to foreign pilots!! So how about along with Sunwing and Canjet, we include Westjet in our little rants. They've got 2 airplanes over here being flown by foreign pilots for the winter. That's at least one groundschool of hiring that didn't happen because of their wet lease practices... or is Westjet somehow different cuz their Westjet?? And before someone says "it's a different type for a niche market", remember Jazz has managed to train it's crews to operate 757s for several months of the year so that's not an excuse!!Gino Under wrote:What I'd like to determine, is whether or not these crews are on a wet lease or an individual contract via seasonal worker rules? There is a difference and could reduce the concern.
Re: Grounding Foreign Pilots
FYI, Westjet has one airplane leased, one last year, one this year. Carry on..gonnabeapilot wrote:You've mentioned this in several of your posts and you seem to find it much more acceptable I'm curious as to your stance on this.... Why is a wet lease of foreign crews different?? If a charter company brings over 140 seasonal contract workers to crew the 10 additional aircraft they've leased for the winter why is that bad but if the same charter company wet leases 10 additional aircraft with 7 crews per plane (so guess what, it's still 140 foreign workers) that's okay?? It's the same number of jobs that could go to Canadians being given to foreign pilots!! So how about along with Sunwing and Canjet, we include Westjet in our little rants. They've got 2 airplanes over here being flown by foreign pilots for the winter. That's at least one groundschool of hiring that didn't happen because of their wet lease practices... or is Westjet somehow different cuz their Westjet?? And before someone says "it's a different type for a niche market", remember Jazz has managed to train it's crews to operate 757s for several months of the year so that's not an excuse!!Gino Under wrote:What I'd like to determine, is whether or not these crews are on a wet lease or an individual contract via seasonal worker rules? There is a difference and could reduce the concern.
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Gino Under
- Rank 8
- Posts: 834
- Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:06 pm
Re: Grounding Foreign Pilots
There’s a difference between hiring seasonal workers and bringing in a wet lease with crews. I think most are aware of the differences and probably aren’t as agitated. Frankly, in this case, I’m unclear as to how these ‘workers’ are being employed at either carrier, but until all Canadian pilots (including me) are clear on what the deal is, I honestly believe we need to know and our government needs to be doing a better job of informing those who are most adversely affected.
Canadian pilots.
Back in the 90s, Canada 3000 and Nationair flew ACMI charters for foreign carriers using their own C-registered aircraft. These were Air 2000 charters to the Med out of Manchester and Garuda Haj charters out of Jakarta. Are SW and CJ operating under the same type of wet lease agreements with a similar reciprocity?
In the one hand, you have ACMIs.
Aircraft, crew, maintenance and insurance.
When you run a charter airline the entire business model is based on seasonal traffic. Which is fickle on a good day and unpredictable on a bad day. But the operator knows that and should be planning accordingly. Playing with loop holes and using creative interpretation of the law is like cheating on an exam in my opinion and based on what I’ve read, that’s what’s being done here. I find it disgusting. Dishonest and dangerous. I’m sure anyone with a pilots licence can reason through that logic. If you give a foreign worker landed immigrant status, you can rest assured he/she will more than likely slide into a full time permanent position at that airline and YOUR shot at a job will evaporate when it happens.
On the other hand, there are countries like India and China who don’t have enough pilots in their own countries to meet the demands of their airlines. This is why the pilot employment agencies are booming trying to find qualified crews to fly these aircraft in those countries. I can assure you, we are losing Canadian pilots to those regions which drains our home industry of experience at a time air carriers in this country are taking away from Canadian pilots battling to elevate their experience and qualifications. When these Canadian pilots repatriate, there’s nothing for them because most were disgusted with the industry when they left and find it even more disgusting when they return. This B.S. doesn't make it any better.
The present Canadian charter airline pilot employment process is a scam, or seems to be. They present the government with the argument they don’t have enough ‘qualified’ pilots, pointing to the NG type rating requirement, thereby gaining credibility with their requirement to hire, employ, contract, ACMI (whatever) foreign type rated pilots. The ignorant government gives them the okay based on what? A twisting of the facts.
ACMI is an accepted solution in the airline, charter airline business. If either SW or CJ use an ACMI solution for their seasonal dilemma aggravated by poor management, then I’m afraid we’re hooped.
If, however, they contract these pilots. Get them landed status. Put them through a licence validation process to obtain a Canadian pilot licence and send them out to fly C-registered aircraft, then we have a big problem and every licenced pilot in Canada looking to move on or land a job with any Canadian carrier, is getting screwed.
We all know there is no shortage of qualified pilots in Canada able to fill either front seat at CJ or SW. (Although we're well on our way to a shortage) Using a type rating or seasonal work as justification or an excuse for NOT hiring Canadian pilots is absolutely disgusting. Those of you thinking the contrary need to give your heads a shake. Using a pilot shortage argument is bullshit and nothing more. This is neither India or China!
As for Jazz and their B757 operation. That’s how things should be done. And, as far as I know WJ wet leases an N-registered ACMI.
Gino Under
Canadian pilots.
Back in the 90s, Canada 3000 and Nationair flew ACMI charters for foreign carriers using their own C-registered aircraft. These were Air 2000 charters to the Med out of Manchester and Garuda Haj charters out of Jakarta. Are SW and CJ operating under the same type of wet lease agreements with a similar reciprocity?
In the one hand, you have ACMIs.
Aircraft, crew, maintenance and insurance.
When you run a charter airline the entire business model is based on seasonal traffic. Which is fickle on a good day and unpredictable on a bad day. But the operator knows that and should be planning accordingly. Playing with loop holes and using creative interpretation of the law is like cheating on an exam in my opinion and based on what I’ve read, that’s what’s being done here. I find it disgusting. Dishonest and dangerous. I’m sure anyone with a pilots licence can reason through that logic. If you give a foreign worker landed immigrant status, you can rest assured he/she will more than likely slide into a full time permanent position at that airline and YOUR shot at a job will evaporate when it happens.
On the other hand, there are countries like India and China who don’t have enough pilots in their own countries to meet the demands of their airlines. This is why the pilot employment agencies are booming trying to find qualified crews to fly these aircraft in those countries. I can assure you, we are losing Canadian pilots to those regions which drains our home industry of experience at a time air carriers in this country are taking away from Canadian pilots battling to elevate their experience and qualifications. When these Canadian pilots repatriate, there’s nothing for them because most were disgusted with the industry when they left and find it even more disgusting when they return. This B.S. doesn't make it any better.
The present Canadian charter airline pilot employment process is a scam, or seems to be. They present the government with the argument they don’t have enough ‘qualified’ pilots, pointing to the NG type rating requirement, thereby gaining credibility with their requirement to hire, employ, contract, ACMI (whatever) foreign type rated pilots. The ignorant government gives them the okay based on what? A twisting of the facts.
ACMI is an accepted solution in the airline, charter airline business. If either SW or CJ use an ACMI solution for their seasonal dilemma aggravated by poor management, then I’m afraid we’re hooped.
If, however, they contract these pilots. Get them landed status. Put them through a licence validation process to obtain a Canadian pilot licence and send them out to fly C-registered aircraft, then we have a big problem and every licenced pilot in Canada looking to move on or land a job with any Canadian carrier, is getting screwed.
We all know there is no shortage of qualified pilots in Canada able to fill either front seat at CJ or SW. (Although we're well on our way to a shortage) Using a type rating or seasonal work as justification or an excuse for NOT hiring Canadian pilots is absolutely disgusting. Those of you thinking the contrary need to give your heads a shake. Using a pilot shortage argument is bullshit and nothing more. This is neither India or China!
As for Jazz and their B757 operation. That’s how things should be done. And, as far as I know WJ wet leases an N-registered ACMI.
Gino Under
Last edited by Gino Under on Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Grounding Foreign Pilots
Good conversation. I am in favor of 1 for 1 reciprocation or bust. However it is kind of sweet when a 2nd year F/O flies a better schedule than a 14 year Air Canada F/O when his seniority balloons 100 notches in the Winter. Just saying.
Re: Grounding Foreign Pilots
Gino Under wrote:There’s a difference between hiring seasonal workers and bringing in a wet lease with crews. I think most are aware of the differences and probably aren’t as agitated. Frankly, in this case, I’m unclear as to how these ‘workers’ are being employed at either carrier, but until all Canadian pilots (including me) are clear on what the deal is, I honestly believe we need to know and our government needs to be doing a better job of informing those who are most adversely affected.
Canadian pilots.
Back in the 90s, Canada 3000 and Nationair flew ACMI charters for foreign carriers using their own C-registered aircraft. These were Air 2000 charters to the Med out of Manchester and Garuda Haj charters out of Jakarta. Are SW and CJ operating under the same type of wet lease agreements with a similar reciprocity?
In the one hand, you have ACMIs.
Aircraft, crew, maintenance and insurance.
When you run a charter airline the entire business model is based on seasonal traffic. Which is fickle on a good day and unpredictable on a bad day. But the operator knows that and should be planning accordingly. Playing with loop holes and using creative interpretation of the law is like cheating on an exam in my opinion and based on what I’ve read, that’s what’s being done here. I find it disgusting. Dishonest and dangerous. I’m sure anyone with a pilots licence can reason through that logic. If you give a foreign worker landed immigrant status, you can rest assured he/she will more than likely slide into a full time permanent position at that airline and YOUR shot at a job will evaporate when it happens.
On the other hand, there are countries like India and China who don’t have enough pilots in their own countries to meet the demands of their airlines. This is why the pilot employment agencies are booming trying to find qualified crews to fly these aircraft in those countries. I can assure you, we are losing Canadian pilots to those regions which drains our home industry of experience at a time air carriers in this country are taking away from Canadian pilots battling to elevate their experience and qualifications. When these Canadian pilots repatriate, there’s nothing for them because most were disgusted with the industry when they left and find it even more disgusting when they return. This B.S. doesn't make it any better.
The present Canadian charter airline pilot employment process is a scam, or seems to be. They present the government with the argument they don’t have enough ‘qualified’ pilots, pointing to the NG type rating requirement, thereby gaining credibility with their requirement to hire, employ, contract, ACMI (whatever) foreign type rated pilots. The ignorant government gives them the okay based on what? A twisting of the facts.
ACMI is an accepted solution in the airline, charter airline business. If either SW or CJ use an ACMI solution for their seasonal dilemma aggravated by poor management, then I’m afraid we’re hooped.
If, however, they contract these pilots. Get them landed status. Put them through a licence validation process to obtain a Canadian pilot licence and send them out to fly C-registered aircraft, then we have a big problem and every licenced pilot in Canada looking to move on or land a job with any Canadian carrier, is getting screwed.
We all know there is no shortage of qualified pilots in Canada able to fill either front seat at CJ or SW. (Although we're well on our way to a shortage) Using a type rating or seasonal work as justification or an excuse for NOT hiring Canadian pilots is absolutely disgusting. Those of you thinking the contrary need to give your heads a shake. Using a pilot shortage argument is bullshit and nothing more. This is neither India or China!
As for Jazz and their B757 operation. That’s how things should be done. And, as far as I know WJ wet leases an N-registered ACMI.
Gino Under
Re: Grounding Foreign Pilots
First off, Jazz is able to operate the 757s within their present operation, because they have a strong summer season to allow them to move pilots from TC to AC flying. Different situation than CJ and SW.
I will not comment on the SW side, as I can only give facts from the CJ ops.
We have 5 permanent aircraft in the fleet which fly year round in Canada. 7-9 aircraft are brought in seasonally to operate the winter season. 35 contract pilots (all First Officers) have been hired to supplement our permanent crewing. 35 pilots for 8 aircraft is a much better deal than ACMI with 8 aircraft, which would equate to over 100 foreign pilots (Capts and FOs), which would also mean that CJ would not need to employ so many permanent crews plus we are all able to fly every aircraft in the fleet CDN and foreign reg'd.
Instead CJ permanently employs over 120 pilots, of which over 3/4 of the list are Captains! That is more than 10 crews per aircraft, far more than required. Besides all of the upgrades and hiring that have been done it has been a challenge just to keep people current (90 day) in the slow season. CJ could very easily lay off or downgrade in the summer to keep costs down...but they don't.
I would love to hear an actual solution to this perceived problem (as it pertains to CJ). I am sure that management is open to new business....
BTW foreign pilots are not a cheap solution, a way for mgmt to line their pockets. It is not a case saving money, it is a case of not having the off season flying to train enough new hires for the busy season. It is a logistical soultion and that is it! Some of our seasonal pilots are Canadian, BTW...and they were hired before anyone outside.
Here is a solution for you...charter companies hire only for 6 months, you pay for your type rating and you can have a job for 6 months. That's how it is done in Europe...not my idea of a good solution!
Anyone who thinks that 6 months working and 6 months on furlough is an acceptable solution needs to get their head out of the sand and give it a shake!!!
I will not comment on the SW side, as I can only give facts from the CJ ops.
We have 5 permanent aircraft in the fleet which fly year round in Canada. 7-9 aircraft are brought in seasonally to operate the winter season. 35 contract pilots (all First Officers) have been hired to supplement our permanent crewing. 35 pilots for 8 aircraft is a much better deal than ACMI with 8 aircraft, which would equate to over 100 foreign pilots (Capts and FOs), which would also mean that CJ would not need to employ so many permanent crews plus we are all able to fly every aircraft in the fleet CDN and foreign reg'd.
Instead CJ permanently employs over 120 pilots, of which over 3/4 of the list are Captains! That is more than 10 crews per aircraft, far more than required. Besides all of the upgrades and hiring that have been done it has been a challenge just to keep people current (90 day) in the slow season. CJ could very easily lay off or downgrade in the summer to keep costs down...but they don't.
I would love to hear an actual solution to this perceived problem (as it pertains to CJ). I am sure that management is open to new business....
BTW foreign pilots are not a cheap solution, a way for mgmt to line their pockets. It is not a case saving money, it is a case of not having the off season flying to train enough new hires for the busy season. It is a logistical soultion and that is it! Some of our seasonal pilots are Canadian, BTW...and they were hired before anyone outside.
Here is a solution for you...charter companies hire only for 6 months, you pay for your type rating and you can have a job for 6 months. That's how it is done in Europe...not my idea of a good solution!
Anyone who thinks that 6 months working and 6 months on furlough is an acceptable solution needs to get their head out of the sand and give it a shake!!!
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mel gibson
- Rank 2
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:21 pm
Re: Grounding Foreign Pilots
How many more young Canadian pilots
are going to die flying piece of sh$@ airplanes up north.
While foreigners are coming to Canada and flying
safe modern jet aircraft for airlines in Canada that are
flooding the market with " cheap " vacations.
I am beyond mad.
Once again , write your MP's.
are going to die flying piece of sh$@ airplanes up north.
While foreigners are coming to Canada and flying
safe modern jet aircraft for airlines in Canada that are
flooding the market with " cheap " vacations.
I am beyond mad.
Once again , write your MP's.
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gonnabeapilot
- Rank 4
- Posts: 217
- Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 2:39 am
Re: Grounding Foreign Pilots
So if I'm to understand people correctly... bringing in any form of seasonal contract worker is an absolute evil as long as there's still a single Canadian pilot flying a Navajo somewhere in the country. The better solution is apparently to hire pilots for 6 month winter contracts and then cut them loose in the summer. Let's look at that a little closer, shall we?
Pilot A has spent the last few years time building and now works as a Captain at a turboprop operator making $45,000/year. Pilot A now meets the minimum qualifications to work at a 737 charter airline and is hired for the 6 month season. The starting F/O wage is $50,000/year however Pilot A will only be employed 6 months so he is now leaving his turboprop job to go fly a jet for $25,000.... a loss of $20,000/year. Let's say that Pilot A doesn't have the commitments that most people have... no kids, no mortgage, no student loans, and Pilot A can eat the loss of pay and tough it out because at the end of the day, jets are just so much cooler than props, aren't they? Now we come to the end of the season and Pilot A is laid off. Now what to do?? We can pretty much guarantee that the turboprop operator is not going to take Pilot A back.... they will have hired a replacement that it actually available to them year round. Pilot A can try to use their shiney new type rating to work a 6 month summer contract over-seas but sadly the majority of those contracts require a minimum of 500 hours on type and Pilot A doesn't have that kind of time after only 1 season so that's out too. There's 6 months of EI but that takes a while to kick in and really doesn't pay out all that much. So in the end, in order to pay the bills and make anything close to the wage they were making at their turboprop gig, Pilot A goes to work at Home Depot for 6 months of the year waiting for the 737 charter airline to call him back. In the fall, Pilot A gets called back to his dream jet job and is looking forward to going back to making the dream wage of $25,000.
This is really an ideal solution for people?? This is the direction we want our industry to go?? It's easy to say "oh 6 months of work is no problem and at least Canadian pilots are getting the jobs" but I'm curious to see how many people would still be saying that when they're faced with 6 months without a pay-cheque. Trust me, it sucks and I wouldn't wish it on anyone... especially someone with a family. I'm sorry, but I would much rather have an industry where we employ a slightly smaller number of Canadian pilots but those pilots are employed year-round in reasonably paying jobs with an opportunity to make some extra money working in Europe in the summer. Give me a 1-1 reciprocal agreement any day of the week. To me it's a solution where the greatest number of pilots benefit.
Pilot A has spent the last few years time building and now works as a Captain at a turboprop operator making $45,000/year. Pilot A now meets the minimum qualifications to work at a 737 charter airline and is hired for the 6 month season. The starting F/O wage is $50,000/year however Pilot A will only be employed 6 months so he is now leaving his turboprop job to go fly a jet for $25,000.... a loss of $20,000/year. Let's say that Pilot A doesn't have the commitments that most people have... no kids, no mortgage, no student loans, and Pilot A can eat the loss of pay and tough it out because at the end of the day, jets are just so much cooler than props, aren't they? Now we come to the end of the season and Pilot A is laid off. Now what to do?? We can pretty much guarantee that the turboprop operator is not going to take Pilot A back.... they will have hired a replacement that it actually available to them year round. Pilot A can try to use their shiney new type rating to work a 6 month summer contract over-seas but sadly the majority of those contracts require a minimum of 500 hours on type and Pilot A doesn't have that kind of time after only 1 season so that's out too. There's 6 months of EI but that takes a while to kick in and really doesn't pay out all that much. So in the end, in order to pay the bills and make anything close to the wage they were making at their turboprop gig, Pilot A goes to work at Home Depot for 6 months of the year waiting for the 737 charter airline to call him back. In the fall, Pilot A gets called back to his dream jet job and is looking forward to going back to making the dream wage of $25,000.
This is really an ideal solution for people?? This is the direction we want our industry to go?? It's easy to say "oh 6 months of work is no problem and at least Canadian pilots are getting the jobs" but I'm curious to see how many people would still be saying that when they're faced with 6 months without a pay-cheque. Trust me, it sucks and I wouldn't wish it on anyone... especially someone with a family. I'm sorry, but I would much rather have an industry where we employ a slightly smaller number of Canadian pilots but those pilots are employed year-round in reasonably paying jobs with an opportunity to make some extra money working in Europe in the summer. Give me a 1-1 reciprocal agreement any day of the week. To me it's a solution where the greatest number of pilots benefit.
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Gino Under
- Rank 8
- Posts: 834
- Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:06 pm
Re: Grounding Foreign Pilots
buzzjob
Thanks for the response.
I, for one would like to understand what’s going on in the charter airlines and why there is a perceived need to bring foreign pilots into the Canadian workplace. Stories and rumours to this point in time are fueling much of this discussion, which may or may not be an accurate portrayal of what’s really going on.
What is meant by 7-9 aircraft are brought in seasonally?
Do these aircraft have a D (European) registration?
Do 35 contract pilots crew both D and C registered aeroplanes?
I sense your Canadian pilots fly both registries, because of the comment “plus we are all able to fly every aircraft in the fleet CDN and foreign reg'd”.
If this is the case, how does individual licence enter the mix? And I’m asking just for my own education on this. Canadian pilots would need a JAA licence to operate European registered aircraft and your foreign pilots would need a Canadian licence to operate Canadian registered aircraft. At least that’s what the JAR-OPS and CARs would lead me to believe. That must be a problem within not only CJ but also SW as far as crewing, training and OPCs are concerned. How is that handled at CJ?
Fewer blocks hours during a reduced flying season would seem like a necessary evil in the charter flying business. It would also seem to be the perfect opportunity to train crews that have some idle time on their hands making you a more polished and professional organization. (Not saying you aren’t by the way) Maybe these layed-off crews could be offered to Indian or Chinese carriers as a stop gap for their crewing problems? What is ALPA doing to proactively help their dues paying members they lay off during the off-season? (just a thought) I wouldn’t want them to take their eye off the ball on this issue if I were at CJ.
As the Brits say, it’s all swings and roundabouts. Bringing in foreign crews is expensive. No doubt. Can it be prohibitively more expensive than type rating a Canadian pilot to the tune of around $20,000 per. I’m sure the cost of an NG rating, especially done in house, is much lower than that.
Here’s an abstract scenario for us to consider. Say a guy (or girl) is nearing retirement. Between 55-70 with tons of experience and a six month gig fits perfectly into his/her lifestyle or plans. Would a six month seasonal term not be ideal if that person wanted to fly? After all, do these folks have to not only fight age discrimination but also stand back and watch foreigners take a job they could easily fill? There must be a few retired pilots out there looking for something meaningful to do besides greeting people at Walmart or picking up trays at Timmies. There might even be a number of former, out of work, out of recency pilots from the C3 crowd or Skyservice and Royal knocking around. All with good time and experience that might easily consider something like this? Six months work might be just the job! But who's asking? Evidently not SW or CJ. In fairness, most mindsets visualize the 20 something from the Beech 1900 crowd as a potential applicant when reality is, there is a broader band of experience sitting idle at home while these carriers hire.
I don’t think 6 months working and 6 months on furlough is an acceptable solution either. It may not be an ideal solution but as far as an acceptable solution goes, it could well be up to the individual. At least a potential candidate should be given the opportunity and the choice between permanent and full time work. I'd say that's no different than most if not all Canadian companies. My employer offers permanent part time work.
This will only serve to make our industry in Canada a much weaker one with fewer opportunities for Canadian pilots. If I were an ALPA member at CJ, I’d be barking at my union reps to look at it for what it is and remember how difficult it was for all of you to get to where you are now and I challenge every one of you to do something about it.
gonnabeapilot
So, it's only about seniority and money, eh? Good grief.
It’s still wrong.
Gino
Thanks for the response.
I, for one would like to understand what’s going on in the charter airlines and why there is a perceived need to bring foreign pilots into the Canadian workplace. Stories and rumours to this point in time are fueling much of this discussion, which may or may not be an accurate portrayal of what’s really going on.
What is meant by 7-9 aircraft are brought in seasonally?
Do these aircraft have a D (European) registration?
Do 35 contract pilots crew both D and C registered aeroplanes?
I sense your Canadian pilots fly both registries, because of the comment “plus we are all able to fly every aircraft in the fleet CDN and foreign reg'd”.
If this is the case, how does individual licence enter the mix? And I’m asking just for my own education on this. Canadian pilots would need a JAA licence to operate European registered aircraft and your foreign pilots would need a Canadian licence to operate Canadian registered aircraft. At least that’s what the JAR-OPS and CARs would lead me to believe. That must be a problem within not only CJ but also SW as far as crewing, training and OPCs are concerned. How is that handled at CJ?
Fewer blocks hours during a reduced flying season would seem like a necessary evil in the charter flying business. It would also seem to be the perfect opportunity to train crews that have some idle time on their hands making you a more polished and professional organization. (Not saying you aren’t by the way) Maybe these layed-off crews could be offered to Indian or Chinese carriers as a stop gap for their crewing problems? What is ALPA doing to proactively help their dues paying members they lay off during the off-season? (just a thought) I wouldn’t want them to take their eye off the ball on this issue if I were at CJ.
As the Brits say, it’s all swings and roundabouts. Bringing in foreign crews is expensive. No doubt. Can it be prohibitively more expensive than type rating a Canadian pilot to the tune of around $20,000 per. I’m sure the cost of an NG rating, especially done in house, is much lower than that.
Here’s an abstract scenario for us to consider. Say a guy (or girl) is nearing retirement. Between 55-70 with tons of experience and a six month gig fits perfectly into his/her lifestyle or plans. Would a six month seasonal term not be ideal if that person wanted to fly? After all, do these folks have to not only fight age discrimination but also stand back and watch foreigners take a job they could easily fill? There must be a few retired pilots out there looking for something meaningful to do besides greeting people at Walmart or picking up trays at Timmies. There might even be a number of former, out of work, out of recency pilots from the C3 crowd or Skyservice and Royal knocking around. All with good time and experience that might easily consider something like this? Six months work might be just the job! But who's asking? Evidently not SW or CJ. In fairness, most mindsets visualize the 20 something from the Beech 1900 crowd as a potential applicant when reality is, there is a broader band of experience sitting idle at home while these carriers hire.
I don’t think 6 months working and 6 months on furlough is an acceptable solution either. It may not be an ideal solution but as far as an acceptable solution goes, it could well be up to the individual. At least a potential candidate should be given the opportunity and the choice between permanent and full time work. I'd say that's no different than most if not all Canadian companies. My employer offers permanent part time work.
This will only serve to make our industry in Canada a much weaker one with fewer opportunities for Canadian pilots. If I were an ALPA member at CJ, I’d be barking at my union reps to look at it for what it is and remember how difficult it was for all of you to get to where you are now and I challenge every one of you to do something about it.
gonnabeapilot
So, it's only about seniority and money, eh? Good grief.
It’s still wrong.
Gino
Re: Grounding Foreign Pilots
Depending on the requirement of the customer, which varies from year to year (the past years has been 7-9 extra aircraft), they source out seasonal aircraft from various companies. We have German, Belgian and French aircraft. Depending on the bilateral agreement between countries, they are left as foreign reg or re-regd to CDN. All pilots can fly all aircraft with the specific validation from the other country.
The slow season is most definitely the "training season". With few exceptions, we do not train in the winter months. That being said there is a new hire groundschool just started, for permanent positions . I do not know the numbers.
CJ has hired and would very likely hire someone in the future who only wants to work in the winter months. I can think of a couple of people in that exact situation here. These people just need to apply, or pick up the phone and call.
ALPA is working on ensuring that there is a balance. Likely the reason that we do not hire Contract Captains and bypass qualified FOs.
This argument goes on and on every year. The main reason for the big push and press right now is because Air Transat announced layoffs. Unfortunately the layoffs came way too late for them to be hired at that time with CJ. Besides it would seem a bit much to type these guys on the 37 knowing that they will be back at AT in 3-6 months anyways....IMHO. (I believe that all are being recalled around april or May...not 100% on that one though.
Unfortunately the public want to travel cheap...the end result is what we have...fortunately it is a great place to work!
The slow season is most definitely the "training season". With few exceptions, we do not train in the winter months. That being said there is a new hire groundschool just started, for permanent positions . I do not know the numbers.
CJ has hired and would very likely hire someone in the future who only wants to work in the winter months. I can think of a couple of people in that exact situation here. These people just need to apply, or pick up the phone and call.
ALPA is working on ensuring that there is a balance. Likely the reason that we do not hire Contract Captains and bypass qualified FOs.
This argument goes on and on every year. The main reason for the big push and press right now is because Air Transat announced layoffs. Unfortunately the layoffs came way too late for them to be hired at that time with CJ. Besides it would seem a bit much to type these guys on the 37 knowing that they will be back at AT in 3-6 months anyways....IMHO. (I believe that all are being recalled around april or May...not 100% on that one though.
Unfortunately the public want to travel cheap...the end result is what we have...fortunately it is a great place to work!
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gonnabeapilot
- Rank 4
- Posts: 217
- Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 2:39 am
Re: Grounding Foreign Pilots
Huh?? I didn't talk about seniority once and as far as money goes... yes it is about money. Life revolves around money. The alternative to foreign contract workers is for charter airlines to lay-off their pilots 6 months of the year. No job = no money = can't pay bills = miserable life. It's my understanding that this is the way Transat operated for years until they had built their business into something that was sustainable year round. Can you honestly say this is a situation you would want to put yourself in?? I'll take the Sunwing/Canjet solution any day of the week. Since you were asking, here is how it works with us...Gino Under wrote:
gonnabeapilot
So, it's only about seniority and money, eh? Good grief.
It’s still wrong.
Gino
Sunwing employs approximately 150 pilots. We lease and operate 7 Canadian registered aircraft on a year-round basis. Last summer, Sunwing operated 4 of those aircraft in Canada flying to the various sun destinations as well as a limited domestic schedule. Because work is limited, Sunwing would need to lay-off 3 aircraft worth of crews (roughly 1/3rd of the company) for 6 months during the slow summer season. Thankfully because of the program that allows for foreign contract workers, we have been able to establish reciprocal partnerships with various airlines around Europe. That meant that last summer, Sunwing was able to place our remaining 3 Canadian registered aircraft with our various airline partners to operate out their scheduled service out of their European bases. These aircraft continued to be Canadian registered and flight attendants from our European partners received training to allow them to operate on a Canadian aircraft with Sunwing pilots/proceedures. As a result, about 50 people who could have been laid off were not only able to continue working year round they were actually able to make a good deal of extra money.
On top of the 3 Canadian registered aircraft that were flying over-seas this summer, Sunwing also contracted some of our crews out to our European partners. These crews went through an abbriviated groundschool, sim, PPC, line indoc and line check with the European airline they were contracted to. Upon completion of the training, the crew members were given a licence validation that allowed them to operate as a crew member on that specific type of aircraft, for that specific company, in that specific foreign country with their Canadian licenses. Because the program provided additional work for our crews, Sunwing was able to hire an additional 10 full-time pilots that other-wise would not have been hired.
This winter Sunwing is operating 23 aircraft to meet the demand of our winter schedule. The additional 16 aircraft have been acquired under short-term leases from our various partner airlines. The majority of these aircraft carry temporary Canadian registrations and crew members are given foreign validations to allow them to operate the foreign registered aircraft while they are in Canada. To meet the additional crewing requirements, Sunwing brings in foreign contract pilots. Just like the Sunwing crew-members who did contract work in Europe, these foreign pilots receive a temporary work visa that is time limited to one winter season. These pilots go through an abbriviated grounschool, sim, PPC, line indoc and line check and they then receive a Canadian licence validation that only allows them to operate a Boeing 73C for Sunwing Airlines.
This winter, Sunwing has 180 foreign crew members temporarily working for us on contracts that range anywhere from 3 to 5 month terms. Considering there are only 150 Sunwing pilots, we obviously feel that this number is rather high... sadly there is only so much we can do as a pilot group when we're outside of contract negotiations. Fortunately Sunwing management has also recognized this fact and that is why we are in the middle of hiring an additional 20-40 Canadian pilots (depending on which rumour one believes) for full time positions. Again, this hiring has only been made possible because Sunwing crews will once again be headed to Europe this summer to operate our aircraft with our European partners.
Finally, although the numbers are very lop-sided this year, it is important to note that since Sunwing started, the number of Canadian pilots who have been sent over to Europe for summer work is still greater than the number foreign pilots who have been brought to Canada to help with our winter flying. This means that allowing foreign contract workers into the country has actually provided a net benefit to Canadian pilots... allowing them to make a fair wage working year-round. From my perspective, the only thing missing is language that restricts the number of foreign workers allowed in to the number of Candian workers that are permitted to work over-seas each year, ensuring a 1-1 reciprocal agreement. As I said in my previous post, without this flexability we would be back to a situation where Canadian pilots are hired in a boom/bust, feast/famine situation every year. Yes, a greater total number of Canadian pilots would be hired, but what's the point if the jobs they are being hired for represent a worse quality of life than the ones that are currently being offered?? I would rather see 200 Canadian pilots working quality, well paying, year-round jobs than 100 Canadian pilots working year round with another 200 Canadian pilots scrambling to make ends meet 6 months of the year. I happen to believe that we shouldn't have an industry where a professional airline pilot needs to work at Wal-mart 6 months of the year just so they can pay their bills.
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Gino Under
- Rank 8
- Posts: 834
- Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:06 pm
Re: Grounding Foreign Pilots
gonnabeapilot
Thanks for breaking things down for me. I gotta tell ya I’m a bit thick cause I’ve been watching this B.S. for years and I’ll be the first to admit, I’m getting a little frustrated with it. Even though I probably don’t really give a sh*t, I at least owe you a response (as unbiased as it might be).
You’re gonna hate me for this...but,
The alternative to foreign contract workers is for charter airlines to lay-off their pilots 6 months of the year.
Well, since this country isn’t full of charter airlines and this particular issue involves two very specific charter airlines, I’d say “they built it, they can fly it”. What’s that other corny expression? "Live by the sword, die by the sword". Tell you what, why doesn't Air Transat send their layed off pilots over to one of their sister companies in Europe?
For argument sake, let’s say in your example it’s actually one airline, Sunwing, focused on itself and not the charter airline business or the available and employable Canadian pilots that are out here. To me it sounds more like a selfish back room arrangement justified by a Canadian Government Program called the Temporary Foreign Worker Program. Which enables Canadian employers to hire foreign workers on a temporary basis to fill immediate skills and labour shortages when Canadians and permanent residents are not available. (Not withstanding the JAR-OPS and CARs requirements)
Hello! Canadians and permanent residents ARE available. Even the dumbest pilot in the room knows using an NG type rating as a deal maker to hide behind this program is pretty slimey and you're still trying to justify it.
It goes on to say, Employers can recruit workers from any country into any lawful occupation as long as employers and workers meet specified program criteria and respect compliance requirements. Under these conditions, the employment of temporary foreign workers (TFWs) supports economic growth, and in turn helps create more opportunities for all Canadians. Even though it sounds to me like Sunwing might have missed the "respect the compliance requirements" part.
I might have to invest more research time on this but in their list of eligible occupations I couldn’t find aviation, airline pilot, commercial pilot or pilot. Maybe they used accident investigator on their applications? That’s listed.
So, let me understand how it works at Sunwing based on your explanation. A parent tour Company based in Europe sells inclusive tours, leases a bunch of aeroplanes, employs among other personnel, pilots who, due to seasonal variations in the market, have to be laid off. This parent Company then partners or buys into a tour operator or charter airline in Canada and backrooms a deal with the Canadians who are too greedy to play by the rules, use a ridiculous TFW program sponsored by the Canadian taxpayer to keep foreign pilots employed seasonally in Canada when Canadians and permanent residents are available to fill those positions.
Most Canadian pilots could give a rats ass if a European pilot was laid off or the European operator got stung with a lease he didn’t really need or could justify. Imagine if we were Europeans debating the impact of Sunwing pilots taking away job opportunities? Boy, I bet we’d see some bloodletting over that.
Just because a pilot might join Sunwing in April only to be laid off in October, doesn't mean we get to make the decision. If he's qualified, make him/her the offer. Let them make their own decision. The charter airline business is actually a game of roulette, not stable employment by any stretch. But whatever is on offer for jobs, including pilot jobs, clearly should be offered to Canadians FIRST. You bring whatever number of aircraft into Canada that you need but I maintain you crew them with Canadian pilots THEN if there's a shortage (as mentioned in the TFW) we invite our European friends over. What you’re actually telling me is that the only ones benefiting from this scheme at Sunwing are Sunwing pilots and European pilots. Sounds like Sunwing are hiring a token few Canadians as a way to apease their guilt in afterthought.
You're only bringing in F/Os! What? That makes it okay?
Which brings me back to where I started.
Sorry, but it’s still wrong.
Beer anyone?
Cheers,
Gino
Thanks for breaking things down for me. I gotta tell ya I’m a bit thick cause I’ve been watching this B.S. for years and I’ll be the first to admit, I’m getting a little frustrated with it. Even though I probably don’t really give a sh*t, I at least owe you a response (as unbiased as it might be).
You’re gonna hate me for this...but,
The alternative to foreign contract workers is for charter airlines to lay-off their pilots 6 months of the year.
Well, since this country isn’t full of charter airlines and this particular issue involves two very specific charter airlines, I’d say “they built it, they can fly it”. What’s that other corny expression? "Live by the sword, die by the sword". Tell you what, why doesn't Air Transat send their layed off pilots over to one of their sister companies in Europe?
For argument sake, let’s say in your example it’s actually one airline, Sunwing, focused on itself and not the charter airline business or the available and employable Canadian pilots that are out here. To me it sounds more like a selfish back room arrangement justified by a Canadian Government Program called the Temporary Foreign Worker Program. Which enables Canadian employers to hire foreign workers on a temporary basis to fill immediate skills and labour shortages when Canadians and permanent residents are not available. (Not withstanding the JAR-OPS and CARs requirements)
Hello! Canadians and permanent residents ARE available. Even the dumbest pilot in the room knows using an NG type rating as a deal maker to hide behind this program is pretty slimey and you're still trying to justify it.
It goes on to say, Employers can recruit workers from any country into any lawful occupation as long as employers and workers meet specified program criteria and respect compliance requirements. Under these conditions, the employment of temporary foreign workers (TFWs) supports economic growth, and in turn helps create more opportunities for all Canadians. Even though it sounds to me like Sunwing might have missed the "respect the compliance requirements" part.
I might have to invest more research time on this but in their list of eligible occupations I couldn’t find aviation, airline pilot, commercial pilot or pilot. Maybe they used accident investigator on their applications? That’s listed.
So, let me understand how it works at Sunwing based on your explanation. A parent tour Company based in Europe sells inclusive tours, leases a bunch of aeroplanes, employs among other personnel, pilots who, due to seasonal variations in the market, have to be laid off. This parent Company then partners or buys into a tour operator or charter airline in Canada and backrooms a deal with the Canadians who are too greedy to play by the rules, use a ridiculous TFW program sponsored by the Canadian taxpayer to keep foreign pilots employed seasonally in Canada when Canadians and permanent residents are available to fill those positions.
Most Canadian pilots could give a rats ass if a European pilot was laid off or the European operator got stung with a lease he didn’t really need or could justify. Imagine if we were Europeans debating the impact of Sunwing pilots taking away job opportunities? Boy, I bet we’d see some bloodletting over that.
Just because a pilot might join Sunwing in April only to be laid off in October, doesn't mean we get to make the decision. If he's qualified, make him/her the offer. Let them make their own decision. The charter airline business is actually a game of roulette, not stable employment by any stretch. But whatever is on offer for jobs, including pilot jobs, clearly should be offered to Canadians FIRST. You bring whatever number of aircraft into Canada that you need but I maintain you crew them with Canadian pilots THEN if there's a shortage (as mentioned in the TFW) we invite our European friends over. What you’re actually telling me is that the only ones benefiting from this scheme at Sunwing are Sunwing pilots and European pilots. Sounds like Sunwing are hiring a token few Canadians as a way to apease their guilt in afterthought.
You're only bringing in F/Os! What? That makes it okay?
Which brings me back to where I started.
Sorry, but it’s still wrong.
Beer anyone?
Cheers,
Gino
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gonnabeapilot
- Rank 4
- Posts: 217
- Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 2:39 am
Re: Grounding Foreign Pilots
Well I appreciate the response. You're obviously passionate enough about the subject to do some research into it and post about it. We may not see eye to eye, but I feel this topic is an important one to discuss simply because it's a subject where little is known by most people but... as you said... has an impact that reaches through the entire industry. Some thoughts about your last post....
As far as Europeans debating the impact of Sunwing pilots taking away job opportunities, I can tell you for a fact that there wouldn't be blood-letting. Thomson Airways had just laid off 90 of their pilots and were facing the prospect of seasonal furloughs when management approached their employees about having Sunwing do contract flying in the summer season.... This summer there were around 40 Sunwing pilots flying for Thomson and we were welcomed by their pilot group.... no blood-letting involved. Their pilots saw the value in an arrangement that allowed for year-round employment and guess what... now that a situation exists where there is greater year-round stability, Thomson (like Sunwing) is once again hiring and growing their pilot group.
with a type rating. You disagree, so what standard of qualification would you use??
Yes, you are right, the charter airline business is a game of roulette which is why everybody involved in the charter airline business (from office staff, to pilots to management) places huge value on anything that brings some sort of stability and certainty to the business. A reciprocal agreement with European carriers does just that.
However, does that mean that others haven't in-directly benefited from my job at Sunwing or our European program? Of course not!! I wasn't born a Sunwing pilot.... There are 150 of us currently working at Sunwing. We all left jobs to come to Sunwing which means that 150 other pilots had to be hired to replace us. Since Sunwing has a minimum requirement of 3000 hours, that also means that another 150 pilots had to be hired to replace the pilots who were hired to replace us at our last jobs. That chain will flow right down to some kid right out of flight school who now has a chance to work the ramp because of the hiring. All of these Canadian pilots have walked into jobs that will offer them year-round work and a good shot at building lives for themselves.
You can advocate how great it would be to hire a bunch of Canadians for half the year, but remember that chain will also link all the way back to the kid fresh out of flight school. Unless a temporary pilot chooses to work at Wal-mart or go on EI, they will find jobs that will take them back for 6 months of the year.... Of course that means that their replacements will only be hired for 6 months of the year and the people who replaced those replacements will only be hired for 6 months a year... all the way down to the new pilot who has no choice but to go work at Wal-mart for 6 months a year. Maybe the newly minted professional pilot can go pick fruit in the summer and eliminate the need for another group of temporary workers that are regularly brought in with this legislation.
I agree... you have a point. Yes, there are Canadians who could be trained to fly an NG... a 250 hour pilot could be trained to fly an NG. However, as another poster mentioned earlier in this thread, that carries with it a certain cost and a bunch of logistical issues. Do the charter airlines exploit a legal loop-hole to help solve this issue? Yes. Does that automatically make it bad for the Canadian aviation industry? In my opinion, no.Gino Under wrote: For argument sake, let’s say in your example it’s actually one airline, Sunwing, focused on itself and not the charter airline business or the available and employable Canadian pilots that are out here. To me it sounds more like a selfish back room arrangement justified by a Canadian Government Program called the Temporary Foreign Worker Program. Which enables Canadian employers to hire foreign workers on a temporary basis to fill immediate skills and labour shortages when Canadians and permanent residents are not available. (Not withstanding the JAR-OPS and CARs requirements)
Hello! Canadians and permanent residents ARE available. Even the dumbest pilot in the room knows using an NG type rating as a deal maker to hide behind this program is pretty slimey and you're still trying to justify it.
You have presented this in a way that makes it sounds like the big bad Europeans are exploiting the Canadian aviation industry to get their way when, in fact, it is the other way around. All of this started with a bunch of Canadian tour operators who wanted to start their own tour airline but couldn't figure out how to deal with the slower summer season. They approached the management of Air2000 in the UK with the idea of sharing crews and resources to take advantage of the counter-cyclical travel seasons in Canada and the UK. From this idea, Canada 3000 was born and since then others have followed the same business model because they have seen the benefit to both employees and the company.So, let me understand how it works at Sunwing based on your explanation. A parent tour Company based in Europe sells inclusive tours, leases a bunch of aeroplanes, employs among other personnel, pilots who, due to seasonal variations in the market, have to be laid off. This parent Company then partners or buys into a tour operator or charter airline in Canada and backrooms a deal with the Canadians who are too greedy to play by the rules, use a ridiculous TFW program sponsored by the Canadian taxpayer to keep foreign pilots employed seasonally in Canada when Canadians and permanent residents are available to fill those positions.
Most Canadian pilots could give a rats ass if a European pilot was laid off or the European operator got stung with a lease he didn’t really need or could justify. Imagine if we were Europeans debating the impact of Sunwing pilots taking away job opportunities? Boy, I bet we’d see some bloodletting over that.
As far as Europeans debating the impact of Sunwing pilots taking away job opportunities, I can tell you for a fact that there wouldn't be blood-letting. Thomson Airways had just laid off 90 of their pilots and were facing the prospect of seasonal furloughs when management approached their employees about having Sunwing do contract flying in the summer season.... This summer there were around 40 Sunwing pilots flying for Thomson and we were welcomed by their pilot group.... no blood-letting involved. Their pilots saw the value in an arrangement that allowed for year-round employment and guess what... now that a situation exists where there is greater year-round stability, Thomson (like Sunwing) is once again hiring and growing their pilot group.
I'm curious why the charter airline doesn't get to make that decision? You say that "if he's qualified, make him/her the offer." Well who sets the standard for being qualified?? Following that logic, anybody with a pulse and a CPL should be offered a job before a foreign pilot... At some point, someone has to make a decision about who's qualified. For charter airlines, they feel that that is someoneJust because a pilot might join Sunwing in April only to be laid off in October, doesn't mean we get to make the decision. If he's qualified, make him/her the offer. Let them make their own decision. The charter airline business is actually a game of roulette, not stable employment by any stretch. But whatever is on offer for jobs, including pilot jobs, clearly should be offered to Canadians FIRST. You bring whatever number of aircraft into Canada that you need but I maintain you crew them with Canadian pilots THEN if there's a shortage (as mentioned in the TFW) we invite our European friends over.
with a type rating. You disagree, so what standard of qualification would you use??
Yes, you are right, the charter airline business is a game of roulette which is why everybody involved in the charter airline business (from office staff, to pilots to management) places huge value on anything that brings some sort of stability and certainty to the business. A reciprocal agreement with European carriers does just that.
Yes and no.... This program has provided Sunwing a tool that has offered the company flexability in the winter, a source of revenue in the summer and a form of year-round stability in a historically unstable business. Because of this, Sunwing has been able to profitably grow since it started. The pilot group has slowly grown and so too have the wages and benefits that the company can afford to provide us. Are Sunwing pilots the only one that benefit from this? Yes... I have benefited from being employed at Sunwing and participating in our European program.... In the same way that anyone who is employed at any company is the only one to directly benefit from their business practices. The day that one of my buddies at Westjet sends me part of their profit share cheque is the day I promise to feel guilty about the fact that others don't directly benefit from my job.What you’re actually telling me is that the only ones benefiting from this scheme at Sunwing are Sunwing pilots and European pilots. Sounds like Sunwing are hiring a token few Canadians as a way to apease their guilt in afterthought.
However, does that mean that others haven't in-directly benefited from my job at Sunwing or our European program? Of course not!! I wasn't born a Sunwing pilot.... There are 150 of us currently working at Sunwing. We all left jobs to come to Sunwing which means that 150 other pilots had to be hired to replace us. Since Sunwing has a minimum requirement of 3000 hours, that also means that another 150 pilots had to be hired to replace the pilots who were hired to replace us at our last jobs. That chain will flow right down to some kid right out of flight school who now has a chance to work the ramp because of the hiring. All of these Canadian pilots have walked into jobs that will offer them year-round work and a good shot at building lives for themselves.
You can advocate how great it would be to hire a bunch of Canadians for half the year, but remember that chain will also link all the way back to the kid fresh out of flight school. Unless a temporary pilot chooses to work at Wal-mart or go on EI, they will find jobs that will take them back for 6 months of the year.... Of course that means that their replacements will only be hired for 6 months of the year and the people who replaced those replacements will only be hired for 6 months a year... all the way down to the new pilot who has no choice but to go work at Wal-mart for 6 months a year. Maybe the newly minted professional pilot can go pick fruit in the summer and eliminate the need for another group of temporary workers that are regularly brought in with this legislation.
You obviously see this issue as black and white... Canadian pilots for Canadian jobs no matter what. I take it that during this global recession you must be driving a car built in Windsor, wear clothes made by Gildan, and are sporting a Blackberry on your hip??? Sadly things aren't black and white and the world is moving towards a global economy that focuses on labour mobility. A 1 for 1 reciprocal agreement can be a good thing for Canadian companies and Canadian pilots. It provides stability in an area of the industry that has traditionally been very unstable. It also allows pilots to work year round as professionals instead of hoping to snag a seasonal contract like glorified fruit pickers. The number of Canadians employed may not be as high this way, but the quality of the employment offered is much, much better. This is meant to be an industry of professionals and quality should carry some weight over quantity. We could all fly jets if we went back to the Jetsgo way of paying for PPCs or the Ryanair way of accepting terrible working conditions in the hope that our 6 month contract gets renewed for another 6 months. The new model for the charter industry can be a very good thing for pilots in Canada. The key is to make sure that for every European pilot that benefits, a Canadian pilot benefits as well. 1 for 1... we don't have it yet, but we're hoping we'll have it soon.Which brings me back to where I started.
Sorry, but it’s still wrong.
Re: Grounding Foreign Pilots
I agree!
Very well put Gonna be a pilot.
I have been in the charter industry off and on for 16 years and finally have seen a measure of stability (comparitively) these past five years. Have enjoyed being based in England for three summers as well as Poland and Belgium the last two. It has been a much better option than being laid off in the summer believe me.
One for One reciprocal is the goal and it will get there. This program has brought about a measure of stability that is creating more hiring opportunities that will continue as the company expands its operations this summer also. It is improving and this will be good news for the whole industry.
These are the times of globalization and equal reciprocity is what we need to equalize the benefits on both sides of the ocean.
Very well put Gonna be a pilot.
I have been in the charter industry off and on for 16 years and finally have seen a measure of stability (comparitively) these past five years. Have enjoyed being based in England for three summers as well as Poland and Belgium the last two. It has been a much better option than being laid off in the summer believe me.
One for One reciprocal is the goal and it will get there. This program has brought about a measure of stability that is creating more hiring opportunities that will continue as the company expands its operations this summer also. It is improving and this will be good news for the whole industry.
These are the times of globalization and equal reciprocity is what we need to equalize the benefits on both sides of the ocean.
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Gino Under
- Rank 8
- Posts: 834
- Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:06 pm
Re: Grounding Foreign Pilots
gonnabeapilot
Intelligence and calm is usually the best way to discuss or debate any issue. Including this one. It’s difficult to read a post with the same tone and emphasis the author intended. So, I truly appreciate your thoughts, comments, insight, and time to bring reason into this discussion.
Rarely is an issue black or white. It might be, but if I gave that impression, I certainly don’t think this is a black or white issue.
As a Canadian pilot, and a Sunwing / Canjet outsider, I believe I have an investment in how and what our so-called aviation businesses do which might ultimately affect me and therefore in turn, might also affect other Canadian pilots. How a particular pilot might see or interpret any pilot job opportunity in Canada is up to that individual. There was a time when I thought it would be great to fly for any Canadian airline, including Sunwing. But for me, specifically, I no longer feel that way and it has nothing to do with any specific company. Evolution of the Canadian airline industry has made it disgusting and not worth the price and it’s when I read things like this that are going on, it only makes me more resolved to stay away. If it works for you, great. It also has to do with the way our aviation companies treat pilots making this issue one of MY hot buttons.
Canada 3000 flew for Air 2000 on a seasonal wet lease. It was clear in those days. C3 pilots didn’t fly G registered Air 2000 aeroplanes. They didn’t mix with A2k crews. This doesn’t seem to be the present day arrangement with whomever in Europe Sunwing / Canjet are partnered with and from my experience, a German, Belgian or Polish crew coming into Canada with THEIR home country registered aircraft just doesn’t seem to be a big deal and I agree, at the very least it (wet lease) should be a 1 for 1. Any imbalance should be in OUR favour. Odd you lose, even I win.
If, on the other hand, these European crews are mixing with Canadian crews, in Canadian registered aircraft, with permission based on a dodgy Canadian government program, with Canadian LVCs issued on the basis that no Canadian pilot is available at short notice, to a Canadian company looking to execute a convenient and immediate business opportunity for reward and/or profit, then I feel I’ve been duped. We’ve all been duped. I’m sure if the entire thing were reversed, you’d still see the dissenters posting their comments on some forum somewhere. Bloodletting? Maybe that sounded a bit dramatic but if words were knives, I certainly expect it would be bloodletting in a literary sense.
It has been my experience since I started in aviation that historically, the employer paid for new hire training, which included the type rating, which was his training. Peoplexpress and Southwest changed that and many in the game contributed to it and that too, is wrong. We could get into that debate as well, but I won’t. Requiring a specific type rating in a country that breaks the type rating into three separate type ratings for the same aircraft really thins out the herd and only serves to accommodate the business opportunist. If you think requiring a type rating is or should be part of the minimum qualification for Sunwing employment, we’ll have to disagree.
Who’s qualified? Anyone with a CPL and a pulse?
No.
IMHO, probably around 2500-3000 hours with an ATPL including MCC experience and a bit of turbine time should be adequate for any carrier in Canada. It goes without saying the more you have the better it is. If the carrier pays for the type rating, I’d be looking for a lot more in a pilot applicant. A jet type rating with previous experience would go a long way.
Having gone from a small aircraft to a heavy aircraft in one move, I can tell you from experience, an applicant should be careful what he/she wishes for. It looks like luxury in pilot selection, like the industry itself, is going LCC. Low Cost and Cheap. We’re seeing pilot shortages and it shouldn’t be long before Canada starts to feel it. With that reality comes, safety issues, training issues, experience (more the lack of it) issues that will affect the industry further. Carriers in Canada should have an interest in their future beyond quick fix solutions that involve non-Canadians. Our pilots need to have access to what limited opportunity exists in Canada to gain the time and experience our home grown industry needs or we stand to lose it. I hope it’s not just about the company and Trans Atlantic boardroom agreements. If it is, I’m on the last lap anyway and expect to retire soon. Let those with a greater investment in this, fight the necessary battles.
Most businesses, especially in the charter airlines and LCCs are setup, run and either get sold at great profit to the owner, bought out or allowed to go out of business. The only winners are the ones who own the businesses or stand to gain the most out of the venture. Usually, government hand outs are involved or government assistance in some respect. Something like the seasonal worker thing. What about the employees? Talk to the ex-C3, or ex-Royal, or ex-Skyservice, or ex-Nationair crews. They should be able to give you an idea as to who won and who lost. Yet pilots flock to these cheap outfits like moths to a flame while forgetting the carnage that is Canadian aviation. They continue to bury their heads in the sand and don't realize they are contributing to their own eventual demise. (My perspective)
I’m well aware of the trickle down affect when pilot hiring starts. Remember, hiring is cyclical. I simply don’t advocate hiring foreign workers at a time when Canadian air carriers are hiring and I don’t agree with buying a type rating to try and land a job at Sunwing or Canjet or any other carrier for that matter. I believe the purchase of a type rating is up to the individual. Pilots will never clue into that because we’ve been sold a bill of goods. On the one hand, you hear buying a type rating will give you an advantage in hiring, only to hear you have no time on type to go with it so PFO. When on the other hand you're told you’ll only get hired if you have a type rating. I’ve already said traditionally the carrier provided the new hire pilot with the required training so you (the individual) either buy into that, or you don’t. For me, it IS black and white, the carrier pays, I don’t.
Thank gawd the practice of charging a fee to process a pilot application has disappeared. How disgusting was that?
I’m sceptical (as you can probably tell). Our industry is becoming a bigger and bigger joke by the day. This issue merely one more joke. If a Canadian business needs to use manipulation or influence, politically or otherwise to solve a particular in-house pilot problem or predicament which stands in the way of making a few bucks, it will. Business is business. In this case, it has used that strategy to its advantage and at the expense of Canadian pilots. I don’t agree with that as a solution. While that’s an accusation I couldn’t prove and many others couldn’t for that matter, in the days of a jaded post Angus Kinnear/ Michel Leblanc pilot world, IMHO that is nothing more than exploiting a legal loop-hole to help solve an issue which only benefits European and Sunwing/Canjet pilots and makes it bad for Canadian pilots who’d like to advance their own careers. Contributing to that opinion is the fact that additional aircraft were not only brought in but those additions (we’re lead to believe) are the reason additional European crews were brought in based on type ratings and business deals with a European counterpart.
I'm repeating myself and while I respect your opinion and rationale, I’m really not comfortable with it. I can’t change it, and I still think it’s wrong.
You have a great summer. Wherever it's spent.
Gino Under
Intelligence and calm is usually the best way to discuss or debate any issue. Including this one. It’s difficult to read a post with the same tone and emphasis the author intended. So, I truly appreciate your thoughts, comments, insight, and time to bring reason into this discussion.
Rarely is an issue black or white. It might be, but if I gave that impression, I certainly don’t think this is a black or white issue.
As a Canadian pilot, and a Sunwing / Canjet outsider, I believe I have an investment in how and what our so-called aviation businesses do which might ultimately affect me and therefore in turn, might also affect other Canadian pilots. How a particular pilot might see or interpret any pilot job opportunity in Canada is up to that individual. There was a time when I thought it would be great to fly for any Canadian airline, including Sunwing. But for me, specifically, I no longer feel that way and it has nothing to do with any specific company. Evolution of the Canadian airline industry has made it disgusting and not worth the price and it’s when I read things like this that are going on, it only makes me more resolved to stay away. If it works for you, great. It also has to do with the way our aviation companies treat pilots making this issue one of MY hot buttons.
Canada 3000 flew for Air 2000 on a seasonal wet lease. It was clear in those days. C3 pilots didn’t fly G registered Air 2000 aeroplanes. They didn’t mix with A2k crews. This doesn’t seem to be the present day arrangement with whomever in Europe Sunwing / Canjet are partnered with and from my experience, a German, Belgian or Polish crew coming into Canada with THEIR home country registered aircraft just doesn’t seem to be a big deal and I agree, at the very least it (wet lease) should be a 1 for 1. Any imbalance should be in OUR favour. Odd you lose, even I win.
If, on the other hand, these European crews are mixing with Canadian crews, in Canadian registered aircraft, with permission based on a dodgy Canadian government program, with Canadian LVCs issued on the basis that no Canadian pilot is available at short notice, to a Canadian company looking to execute a convenient and immediate business opportunity for reward and/or profit, then I feel I’ve been duped. We’ve all been duped. I’m sure if the entire thing were reversed, you’d still see the dissenters posting their comments on some forum somewhere. Bloodletting? Maybe that sounded a bit dramatic but if words were knives, I certainly expect it would be bloodletting in a literary sense.
It has been my experience since I started in aviation that historically, the employer paid for new hire training, which included the type rating, which was his training. Peoplexpress and Southwest changed that and many in the game contributed to it and that too, is wrong. We could get into that debate as well, but I won’t. Requiring a specific type rating in a country that breaks the type rating into three separate type ratings for the same aircraft really thins out the herd and only serves to accommodate the business opportunist. If you think requiring a type rating is or should be part of the minimum qualification for Sunwing employment, we’ll have to disagree.
Who’s qualified? Anyone with a CPL and a pulse?
No.
IMHO, probably around 2500-3000 hours with an ATPL including MCC experience and a bit of turbine time should be adequate for any carrier in Canada. It goes without saying the more you have the better it is. If the carrier pays for the type rating, I’d be looking for a lot more in a pilot applicant. A jet type rating with previous experience would go a long way.
Having gone from a small aircraft to a heavy aircraft in one move, I can tell you from experience, an applicant should be careful what he/she wishes for. It looks like luxury in pilot selection, like the industry itself, is going LCC. Low Cost and Cheap. We’re seeing pilot shortages and it shouldn’t be long before Canada starts to feel it. With that reality comes, safety issues, training issues, experience (more the lack of it) issues that will affect the industry further. Carriers in Canada should have an interest in their future beyond quick fix solutions that involve non-Canadians. Our pilots need to have access to what limited opportunity exists in Canada to gain the time and experience our home grown industry needs or we stand to lose it. I hope it’s not just about the company and Trans Atlantic boardroom agreements. If it is, I’m on the last lap anyway and expect to retire soon. Let those with a greater investment in this, fight the necessary battles.
Most businesses, especially in the charter airlines and LCCs are setup, run and either get sold at great profit to the owner, bought out or allowed to go out of business. The only winners are the ones who own the businesses or stand to gain the most out of the venture. Usually, government hand outs are involved or government assistance in some respect. Something like the seasonal worker thing. What about the employees? Talk to the ex-C3, or ex-Royal, or ex-Skyservice, or ex-Nationair crews. They should be able to give you an idea as to who won and who lost. Yet pilots flock to these cheap outfits like moths to a flame while forgetting the carnage that is Canadian aviation. They continue to bury their heads in the sand and don't realize they are contributing to their own eventual demise. (My perspective)
I’m well aware of the trickle down affect when pilot hiring starts. Remember, hiring is cyclical. I simply don’t advocate hiring foreign workers at a time when Canadian air carriers are hiring and I don’t agree with buying a type rating to try and land a job at Sunwing or Canjet or any other carrier for that matter. I believe the purchase of a type rating is up to the individual. Pilots will never clue into that because we’ve been sold a bill of goods. On the one hand, you hear buying a type rating will give you an advantage in hiring, only to hear you have no time on type to go with it so PFO. When on the other hand you're told you’ll only get hired if you have a type rating. I’ve already said traditionally the carrier provided the new hire pilot with the required training so you (the individual) either buy into that, or you don’t. For me, it IS black and white, the carrier pays, I don’t.
Thank gawd the practice of charging a fee to process a pilot application has disappeared. How disgusting was that?
I’m sceptical (as you can probably tell). Our industry is becoming a bigger and bigger joke by the day. This issue merely one more joke. If a Canadian business needs to use manipulation or influence, politically or otherwise to solve a particular in-house pilot problem or predicament which stands in the way of making a few bucks, it will. Business is business. In this case, it has used that strategy to its advantage and at the expense of Canadian pilots. I don’t agree with that as a solution. While that’s an accusation I couldn’t prove and many others couldn’t for that matter, in the days of a jaded post Angus Kinnear/ Michel Leblanc pilot world, IMHO that is nothing more than exploiting a legal loop-hole to help solve an issue which only benefits European and Sunwing/Canjet pilots and makes it bad for Canadian pilots who’d like to advance their own careers. Contributing to that opinion is the fact that additional aircraft were not only brought in but those additions (we’re lead to believe) are the reason additional European crews were brought in based on type ratings and business deals with a European counterpart.
I'm repeating myself and while I respect your opinion and rationale, I’m really not comfortable with it. I can’t change it, and I still think it’s wrong.
You have a great summer. Wherever it's spent.
Gino Under
Re: Grounding Foreign Pilots
The hard fact is that Transat is laying off 17 pilots while Canjet (who directly operates for Air Transat) hired 35 foreign pilots to fill their need for pilots for their contract with Transat
Sunwing is operating with aprox 150 local Canadian pilots and 180 foreign pilots as well as aprox 10 contractors (both Capt and FO)
I do believe this directly affected the 17 Canadians who lost their jobs in Canada to foreigners on contract to the same company and the potential 15 Canadians (180 – 150 / 2) that didn’t get a job because a Canadian company was able to get away with hiring more foreigners than locals.
Sunwing is operating with aprox 150 local Canadian pilots and 180 foreign pilots as well as aprox 10 contractors (both Capt and FO)
I do believe this directly affected the 17 Canadians who lost their jobs in Canada to foreigners on contract to the same company and the potential 15 Canadians (180 – 150 / 2) that didn’t get a job because a Canadian company was able to get away with hiring more foreigners than locals.
Re: Grounding Foreign Pilots
Sunwing brings over 200+ pilots and only sends approx. 45 to 50 overseas...hardly reciprocal!teacher wrote:As long as there is a reciprical agreement on a 1 to 1 basis where as an equal number of Canadian pilots go overseas as forgeign pilots come here I'm OK with it. Better to be employed paying taxes year round than on EI 6 months out of the year. The problem I have is when there is no recip agreement or more foreign pilots work here than Canadian overseas with said company.
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Spaceshuttle
- Rank 2
- Posts: 64
- Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:37 am
Re: Grounding Foreign Pilots
I didn't realize Canjet worked "directly" for Air Transat Airlines...I read the financial report and saw something different.
Re: Grounding Foreign Pilots
Canjet does not work for Air Transat (the airline), they have a contract with Transat AT (the parent company)
