And little wonder that ALPA did not want to enter the fray. Sad that the group representing airline pilots holds them at a distance.

ALPA chapters in Canada have had months (if not longer) to stand up for Canadian pilots and insist that our Government does not allow foreign pilots to take these jobs. So where are they?
ALPA Canjet?
ALPA Transat?
ALPA Jazz?
ACPA?
...anyone?

If it was the U.S.A. and foreigners were being used to fill vacancies at ANY U.S. charter airline, the fur would fly.
We don't count, and if none of the Canadian ALPA chapters or other Canadian pilot unions, associations fail to make a noise, this issue will go away quietly. But then, that's the Canadian way.

Pity.

Gino Under

ALPA Canada board is involved, they were supposed to be in front of a senate committee Nov 30, I don't know the results. Havings months to change the system is not a long time, considering how long the flypast 60 issue has been dragged on for. I don't think you'll see a change for this season, as it is well under way and it could be argued that sending the foreign pilots home now would be burdensome.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/884339/ ... ign-pilots
Capitan Dan Adamus, President of ALPA's Canada Board, added: "The hiring of even a single foreign pilot, when there are unemployed Canadian pilots, is unacceptable. The issue of hiring foreign pilots and its impacts on the labour force are subjects that need to be taken seriously by the federal government. Some airline managements have been abusing the Temporary Foreign Worker Program by using it for competitive advantages instead of filling a labor shortage as originally envisioned by the legislation."

ALPA Canada has been lobbying the government for changes to the Temporary Foreign Worker Program and will be raising the issue again when it appears before the Senate Permanent Committee on Transport and Communication next Wednesday. The need to protect the jobs of Canadian pilots is a priority issue for ALPA.

mbav8r wrote:ALPA Canada board is involved, they were supposed to be in front of a senate committee Nov 30, I don't know the results. Havings months to change the system is not a long time, considering how long the flypast 60 issue has been dragged on for. I don't think you'll see a change for this season, as it is well under way and it could be argued that sending the foreign pilots home now would be burdensome.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/884339/ ... ign-pilots
Capitan Dan Adamus, President of ALPA's Canada Board, added: "The hiring of even a single foreign pilot, when there are unemployed Canadian pilots, is unacceptable. The issue of hiring foreign pilots and its impacts on the labour force are subjects that need to be taken seriously by the federal government. Some airline managements have been abusing the Temporary Foreign Worker Program by using it for competitive advantages instead of filling a labor shortage as originally envisioned by the legislation."

ALPA Canada has been lobbying the government for changes to the Temporary Foreign Worker Program and will be raising the issue again when it appears before the Senate Permanent Committee on Transport and Communication next Wednesday. The need to protect the jobs of Canadian pilots is a priority issue for ALPA.

Awesome!

That would be good progress.

Unfortunately this will not help the Wet Leasing issue...might just make it worse which will mean even less Canadian jobs when you consider that cabin crew are also being brought in from Eastern Europe for the TVS and Corsair Wet Leases.

Stay tuned and see what happens I guess.

I can see that this must be frustrating, and maybe seen as unfair for out of work Canadians, but the company is just using the system to their advantage, to maximise profit.
You can't blame them for that, that's why they are in business.
There is nothing ethical about the way many aviation enterprises are run.

I stand corrected regarding ALPA and it restores a certain amount of confidence that someone is at least doing something proactively. I applaud Dan Adamus and ALPA for standing up to be counted.

howzat
These guys are definitely NOT doing something illegal. They are, however, playing the system. Legal or illegal isn't the issue. I see it as morality or the lack of professional ethics on the part of Sunwing and Canjet. To propose sanctions under the Temporary Worker legislation for pilots creates a whole new definition of the term. THAT, I have an issue with.

What these guys are doing, frustrations aside, is not only screwing Canadian pilots but they are screwing the future of our homegrown airline industry. And that's a problem. Especially if allowed to continue.

Go back a few years. Did the collapse of C3 bankrupt Kinnear? Did the collapse (merger) of Royal bankrupt Leblanc? Did Jetsgo bankrupt him? Look at others, Roots, Skyservice? The owners create value in their companies, sell off or go out of business and rake in the $$$. The employees however, got fuct. I think the party's over, or at least I'd like to see it toned down. Personally, I could care less if these monkeys went out of business. There will only be another player in the charter game to take up where these guys leave off. I can assure you.

Frustrating? Yeah, it's frustrating alright. But what they're doing is wrong. We don't need foreign pilots working for any of our airlines. Period.

Gino Under

Gino Under wrote: There will only be another player in the charter game to take up where these guys leave off. I can assure you.


Gino Under

...and this is what the current roster at CJ and SG fails to see (of course, they'd like to see us gone)... They're somewhat defending it without evaluating the long term pervasiveness of that practice.


+1 on your whole post Gino

Sky (AT)

I would agree that this is a moral issue.

But I would also argue that there is a legal foundation as well;

1. SW and CJ (namely Mark Williams who has claimed this to the media and ALPA) this is via a so called “reciprocating agreement”. If it is reciprocating wouldn’t the government of Canada, primarily Immigration Canada and Labor Canada be interested to see the actual number of Canadian Pilots going across versus the Foreign Pilots coming here (60 v 200).

2. To apply for the foreign temporary workers permits a LMO (Labor market opinion) must be completed and in the LMO you must not only state the reason for the labor shortage but supply proof that you have advertised the position available and have been unable to fill it with qualified Canadians.


http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/workplaceski ... ndex.shtml

further;

When applying for an LMO, you must show:
• The efforts you made to recruit and/or train willing and available Canadian citizens/permanent residents;

(where are the job adds for Sunwing pilot positions dating back to September or October prior to foreigners being brought to Canada?)

• The wages you offer are consistent with the prevailing wage rate paid to Canadians in the same occupation in the region;

(HA! Foreign Captains and First officers earn significantly more than Canadians in their first year at SW)

• The working conditions for the occupation meet the current provincial labour market standards; and

(Cant argue that one)

• Any potential benefits that hiring a foreign worker might bring to the Canadian labour market, such as the creation of new jobs or the transfer of skills and knowledge.

(this one is quite obviously answered throughout this forum)

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/work/emplo ... basics.asp

I would argue that someone along the way (Sunwing, Canjet, ect.) is committing fraud. Someone is lying about the equality of their “reciprocating agreement” and fraud is being committed when the fill out the LMO to immigration Canada.

To argue the case of fraud an educated source (such as ALPA) needs to approach immigration Canada and request audit of the LMO’s being applied. They would have significant labour representation and credible numbers to counter any so called LMO or shortage of unqualified pilots. They would also have the appropriate means of educating immigration Canada to prevent re-occurrence.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/informatio ... cument.asp

IMO the only other solution comes in one of two forms;

1. Media coverage, political action is excited by the public presence, and media coverage would ultimately bring light to the situation which might promote change, or

2. In order for companies like SW and CJ to use this program the title of Pilot is listed under skilled labour under the provincial job listings. If “pilot” was changed from skilled labour to “professional” or “profession” then they would be unable to attain temporary work permits as temporary work permits do not apply to professionals, only unskilled or skilled workers as per the NOC matrix.

http://www5.hrsdc.gc.ca/NOC/English/NOC ... lcome.aspx

Well explained, just say'n.

I have a couple of questions maybe you (or anyone) could clarify:

Is a reciprocating agreement the same as an LMO? For instance we bring in Mexican migrant farm workers but do we send any workers ever to Mexico?

Are all of the incoming pilot groups paid as much as Sunwing's pilots or are some paid less? Does Sunwing reciprocate with each group or only some? Do Canadians have access to any country within the EU, or do some such as Germany have protectionist measures to prevent skilled foreign workers?

If the LMO states that all provincial labour standards must be met, how is this monitored when aviation is an industry regulated only by federal labour standards and is not held to provincial standards?

Discuss

Justsay'n

Thank you for an eloquent and important post.

If I had the time off next week, I'd go to Ottawa and give those government flunkies shit for letting this happen. Now that I know ALPA will be present at the hearing, I'll relax a bit.

Give'er boys!

Gino Under

Sorry to rain on your parade Gino. Just sayin is missing one important piece of information. Ill give you a clue. Your thinking from purely a pilots perspective. The unions have already spoken to the government. The program isn't going anywhere.

ALPA needs to be present at every one of these hearings. In whatever capacity but be there.

The program.
Which program?
The Temporary Foreign Worker or the Sunwing/Canjet scam?
Sorry. I don't follow.

The TFW isn't going away. It's going to take an effort on the part of every Canadian pilot to express an objection to what's going on and write, phone, text or email their MP, local newspaper, TV investigative reporter to embarrass the clowns and hopefully stop it.

I'm composing my letter. Are you?

Gino Under

As mentioned above, you do not need to abolish the TWP. Its construction was to legitify processes in industry’s where legal representation did not exists and practices such as employee abuse took place (ie, fruit and veg picking for little to no pay). This program was created for the Mexicans picking fruits to know they had rights in Canada and that the government would protect them;

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/work/tfw-rights.asp

My recommendation beyond the media or canvassing was simple.

If you classify pilots through the NOC as professionals instead of skilled labor the TWP program no longer applies and the loophole for SW and CJ is closed. Quite simple actually, it just needs to come from a body in industry that can argue the case. I the mere pilot “thinking as a pilot” cannot adequately represent a body of individuals, who IMO represent a group of professionals moreso than just “skilled labour”

Or ;

Kevin Donavin
416 312 3503
kdonovan@thestar.com

He was the one who reported on ORNG and the whole scandal there, maybe he has interest in yet another government Scam.

I agree with you guys, I was on a Sunwing flight to Punta Cana as a passenger a few months ago and I could not understand one thing the FO said during his announcement, it was complete garbled broken english. Thankfully the Captain was Canadian, Captain Curby and his announcement was clear. If there was an emergency on the plane and both crew were foreign than damn..

From the Job Ads Forum:

POSITION: Seasonal Contract Flight Crew Members
LOCATIONS: Toronto, ON / Montreal, QC / Calgary, AB / Vancouver, BC
POSTING DATE: February 15, 2012
CLOSING DATE: February 22, 2012

We are looking for Seasonal Contract Pilots to fly on secondment to Sunwing Airlines during the winter months. Successful candidates will be type rated on the B737 NG aircraft and can enter into short or long term renewable contracts.

During the course of duty, Pilots are expected to conduct themselves in accordance with company policies and government regulations. Pilots are responsible for:
• Ensuring that safety is the primary objective by adhering to the Sunwing safety policy and utilizing the appropriate safety reporting program in order to identify and communicate all known hazards and risks to the organization.
• Ensuring continual improvement through the periodic review of documented processes.
• Assisting in flight planning and any other preparations for flight as required by Company policy.
• Conducting flight duties and responsibilities as outlined the Flight Operations Manual
• Monitoring all aspects of flight and noting any safety concerns to the Company.
• Participating in the execution of cockpit procedures, emergency procedures, checklist procedures and instrument approach procedures in accordance with the procedures and drills in the Aircraft Flight Manual and/or Company approved procedures.
• During ground operations, supervising the loading of the aircraft, fuelling, and the preparation of the load sheet as required.
• Maintaining a current medical.
• Maintaining the ability to work in Canada.
• Maintaining a current passport.
• Other flight operations related duties as assigned.

Qualifications
• Must have Canadian ATPL (Airline Transport Pilot License) and valid Aviation Medical
• Must be a Canadian Citizen or Permanent Resident of Canada
• 3,000 hours total time
• Jet time an asset
• Positive Attitude
• No accidents/incidents/violations in last 3 years

If you are interested in applying, please forward your resume and cover letter to hr@sunwing.ca with the job title in the subject line.
We would like to thank all that apply however only those who meet the qualifications will be contacted. We welcome diversity in our workplace and encourage applications from all qualified women and men, including persons with disabilities, members of visible minorities, and Aboriginal Canadians.

An ad like this is a reasonable step in the right direction on the part of Sunwing to get serious about any real or imagined pilot shortage in Canada, and those willing to gain some experience would be well advised to take advantage of the opportunity.
Put up or shut up time.

Gino Under

It may be a step in the right direction but to me it looks more like they're trying to prove a point: that it is hard to find Canadian pilots willing to work 4 months in the year before being laid off, thus justifying the use of foreigners.

Unless you can take a leave of absence from your current company, who will be crazy enough to leave a full time job for this? Not me....

B.

Looks like a good way for someone to get a 737NG type rating and maybe 500 hours. Could find a contract job after that.

Non non non,
Doing contract work in other countries is wrong remember?
You are supposed to stay home and collect unemployment. You wouldn't want to steal jobs from the local pilots that don't have 737 PPC's but really deserve jet jobs.... .

thx1138 wrote:Looks like a good way for someone to get a 737NG type rating and maybe 500 hours. Could find a contract job after that.

If you work hard, you'll fly 90 hrs/month. 90 x 4 = 360 hrs.

All of that time will be FO time, which is useless in the contract community.

There's several opportunities in the contract world for pilots with just FO time.

Korean Airlines is one such airline... http://www.rishworthaviation.com/Opport ... ening.aspx

Im sure someone with B737 time wouldn't have many problems getting an interview from places like Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, etc.

Dim wrote:Non non non,
Doing contract work in other countries is wrong remember?
You are supposed to stay home and collect unemployment. You wouldn't want to steal jobs from the local pilots that don't have 737 PPC's but really deserve jet jobs.... .

That was a good VERY good point gentlemen and lady or two

Dim wrote:Non non non,
Doing contract work in other countries is wrong remember?
You are supposed to stay home and collect unemployment. You wouldn't want to steal jobs from the local pilots that don't have 737 PPC's but really deserve jet jobs.... .

Ah, that old pearl of an argument.

The problem is most countries offering contracts do not have sufficient ATPLs (or even CPLs) to fulfil their staffing needs. This is not the case in Canada. Here, we have more than enough ATPLs, just not enough type rated pilots on certain aircraft. Type rating a pilot should be the cost of doing business for a company.

I used to work in a place that most definitely did not have a sufficient supply of CPL MIFR rated pilots to satisfy the needs of the company. But, guess what, the company decided that they would implement an ab initio cadet program for their local kids (took many years to get ups and running) and now they don't need to hire nearly as many expats. I fully support and congratulate them on this initiative even though I can guarantee it is more expensive for them to do this than hire expats.

Canadians (not including dual citizens) are NOT taking contracts in countries where there is an oversupply of commercial pilots.