Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

[Bede]

Everybody tries to benchmark AC vs WJ by using selective numbers that advantage their argument but almost nobody does a comprehensive analysis.

Very true. I did do a comparison at one time. I figured a conservative ROI on the WJ ESPP and compared to the payout of a typical AC pilot. The difference in gross earnings over the course of the career were negligible for the AC pilots v. WJA.

I guess it all depends on whether you want a volatile stock market or a Ponzi scheme you hope will stay solvent enough for you to retire. Pick your poison.

[rudder]

Everybody tries to benchmark AC vs WJ by using selective numbers that advantage their argument but almost nobody does a comprehensive analysis.

Very true. I did do a comparison at one time. I figured a conservative ROI on the WJ ESPP and compared to the payout of a typical AC pilot. The difference in gross earnings over the course of the career were negligible for the AC pilots v. WJA.

I guess it all depends on whether you want a volatile stock market or a Ponzi scheme you hope will stay solvent enough for you to retire. Pick your poison.

Benchmark = Pay + Productivity + Pension + Perquisites

[duranium]

One step closer to the government's giant sledgehammer. The SPLAT will be heard across Canada. No egos will be spared this time.

The subsequent post was too long to quote. You sure are one angry dude. I thought it was the age sixty stuff you feasted on, now you want all of us to get anihilated. Some medicinal weed might be in order bro.

Not at all angry. It's an attempt to inject, present, suggest, etc, etc, etc, by somewhat shock words a dose of probable reality if you folks do not come back down to earth very soon.

P.S. you are not alone as rumblings in the aviation universe are saying that Air France is about to be presented a '' Bill of Rights '' that is also not too palatable

[ratherbee]

What a mess!

No credibility, no strategy, no negotiated contract. Final offer binding arbitration here we come. Oh, and thanks to the President for his on the record remarks before the Senate about essential services.

[Disco Stu]

Only people who don't understand how Defined Benefit Pensions work refer to them as Ponzi Schemes.

[yycflyguy]

What a mess!

No credibility, no strategy, no negotiated contract. Final offer binding arbitration here we come. Oh, and thanks to the President for his on the record remarks before the Senate about essential services.

Have you been paying attention?

[Bede]

Only people who don't understand how Defined Benefit Pensions work refer to them as Ponzi Schemes.

OK, please enlighten me how they work.

[vic777]

OK, please enlighten me how they work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defined_be ... nsion_plan

[vic777]

Oh, and thanks to the President for his on the record remarks before the Senate about essential services.

Was that the time he also said that AC Pilots were overpaid?

[gpmdud]

All of these machinations will soon be history.
AC will go into bankruptcy protection within 6 months.
With a market cap of less than $250 mil shareholders don't matter.
WestJet will continue to erode AC market share.
Restructuring will be difficult but in the end AC will come out a much smaller enterprise.
Welcome to the "World of Downsizing" it's next growth industry ~

[Bored]

If Air Canada is going into CCAA or worse, is Chorus or Aeroplan stock falling? Those should be the first contracts rewritten.
How can the gov't allow Air Canada to potentially disappear if its so important to the economy that even pax agents are legislated back to work?
Amazing that during negotiations the stock is at $1 but when Milton had stock to dump, it shot up to $3.

[morefun]

You had better hope and pray that Air Canada doesn't go into CCAA as it won't be good for pilots and I mean all pilots...

[ratherbee]

Fanblade:

TA1 had 100k/ year 767 captains in it at the LCC.

Get your facts straight before you spread more misinformation. According to ACPA's website the first year Captain hourly day/night rate for a widebody at the LCC was $167.52 climbing to $176.03.

[ratherbee]

Oh, and thanks to the President for his on the record remarks before the Senate about essential services.

Was that the time he also said that AC Pilots were overpaid?

No, you're referring to his remarks about mandatory retirement. He was also before a Senate Committee.

[Fanblade]

Fanblade:

TA1 had 100k/ year 767 captains in it at the LCC.

Get your facts straight before you spread more misinformation. According to ACPA's website the first year Captain hourly day/night rate for a widebody at the LCC was $167.52 climbing to $176.03.

Bull!

You are quoting group rates. I went and looked at the 767 captain LCC wage on its own. Year 1. 118k.

Sorry for being out a bit.

That is a 37% pay cut from mainline rates.

No one was buying the smoke and mirrors of the grouping then and certainly not now.

Nothing wrong with groupings. But using them to bury how extensive some of the LCC pay cuts were, was dishonest.

Using LCC319 CA wages to prop up EMJ wages dishonest.

The published pay scales showing pay increases that were really contingent on LCC? Dishonest.

Pay transfered from LCC positions to mainline positions and calling it a raise?

Pushing it now? Either your providing more of the same or part of the group that was duped.

[Takeoff OK]

All of these machinations will soon be history.
AC will go into bankruptcy protection within 6 months.
With a market cap of less than $250 mil shareholders don't matter.
WestJet will continue to erode AC market share.
Restructuring will be difficult but in the end AC will come out a much smaller enterprise.
Welcome to the "World of Downsizing" it's next growth industry ~

^ ^ ^ This ^ ^ ^ (give or take...). Pay attention boys and girls. It's about to get surreal...

[Fanblade]

I call BS.

They can rid the pension problem in less than two years now without CCAA. CCAA is not the panacea it is in the US. Contracts remain.

The share price is undervalued because the street is concerned about negotiations particularly with ACPA. Everyone knows an unmotivated pilot group won't produce results.

And even if it were the BoD's objective? All the more reason to give up absolute nothing now.

[Takeoff OK]

Just for some perspective on how far management will run on fucking pilots over, here is a PDF of proposed changes at AA under bankruptcy restructuring:

http://www.restructuringamr.com/documen ... _CLEAN.pdf

(You'll have to cut and past it in your browser.) Ope! Never mind; the hyperlink works.

Don't think for a second that AC's incompetent execs aren't slavering over this.

For those of you that don't know, AA's current contract and work rules are far superior to AC's. They're pretty much the last of the bastions in the U.S. when it comes to QOL. That is obviously about to change.

Make sure to take a good look at the scope section, BTW. Do the words "Industry Standard" mean anything to anyone? If you're not careful, all of you AC guys are about to be played by a government-backed shitstorm.

[duranium]

Question

Why are many of you supposedly brilliant flypeople not able to NOT interject vulgar language into your comments and exchanges. I am quite sure MOST of you have a minimum of upbringing and education to be able to make a point intelligently without using sewer language but then, I could be wrong.

[rudder]

I call BS.

They can rid the pension problem in less than two years now without CCAA.

??????

[Fanblade]

Question

Why are many of you supposedly brilliant flypeople not able to NOT interject vulgar language into your comments and exchanges. I am quite sure MOST of you have a minimum of upbringing and education to be able to make a point intelligently without using sewer language but then, I could be wrong.

Question,

Venom or Vulgarity?

Which reflects worse on the poster?

[Fanblade]

I call BS.

They can rid the pension problem in less than two years now without CCAA.

??????

Pension moratorium ends in less than 2 years at which point AC will apply to enter the distressed pension workout scheme. No one is leaving that process with a deficit.

The devil is in the details.

[Fanblade]

http://www.restructuringamr.com/documen ... _CLEAN.pdf


Don't think for a second that AC's incompetent execs aren't slavering over this.

Make sure to take a good look at the scope section, BTW.

Takeoff,

Thanks for the link. It is interesting that a company in Chapter 11, who can basically impose what they want, is not as extreme as AC CURRENT position.

No wages in that document but scope and DC pension contribution substantially better in the AA document.

[rudder]

Pension moratorium ends in less than 2 years at which point AC will apply to enter the distressed pension workout scheme. No one is leaving that process with a deficit.

The devil is in the details.

So you are suggesting what? That the plans will be terminated at that time? Or that the benefit levels will be drastically reduced?

There is no pension fairy that is going to ride to AC's rescue. Either AC funds the plans on existing terms or the terms change, and not for the better.

[Fanblade]

Pension moratorium ends in less than 2 years at which point AC will apply to enter the distressed pension workout scheme. No one is leaving that process with a deficit.

The devil is in the details.

So you are suggesting what? That the plans will be terminated at that time? Or that the benefit levels will be drastically reduced?

There is no pension fairy that is going to ride to AC's rescue. Either AC funds the plans on existing terms or the terms change, and not for the better.

I am saying benefit levels will be reduced to a manageable level up to including termiination. Realistically with the present solvency rate. Reductions, or in the case of pilots, change the normal age of retirement.

No one will get out of that process with an RPP that is not sustainable.

The only choice for employees is to negotiate now, or have changes imposed later.

The unions are all choosing the latter.

Personally I think ACPA is putting off pension reform so as to better evaluate the post 60 impact.

This will cut both ways.

Encourage people out the door pre 2014. So long as this remains unresolved. If it gets fixed now the encouragement to leave will dissolve.

Post 2014 encourage people to stay if pension benefits drop. If people stay on average to 63 anyway?