Turn coat joins Liberals

[loopy]

As I said in another post, I think brigning the gvt down now only inflames separtism. The Conservatives and Bloq are strange bedfellows.

I wish all these politicians would drop the party rhetoric in govern. A lot of times in democracy minority govt's can be the most successful. All parties have a chance to influence legislation.

Look back to the 60's when healthcare and our social programs we feel are essentially Canadian came from. Minority govt's which the NDP exerted influence on. The NDP never ruled federally in this country, but they have definitely had an influence on it, particularly with this legacy.

I fail to see anything but another minority govt in the works. I think there is a better chance of a real political change after teh Gomery inquiry is done.

I'm probably a liberal in philosophy, but I like many, am tired of Liberal arrogance and would like to see a change. In the last election I wanted a change. I could not then, and can't now, bring myself to support any party Harper leads. He does not give me the warm fuzzy's. There is nothing I find charismatic about him, and don't trust him when he speaks. Well who of these guys can you trust. MacKay seems to come off better that way, but he went back on his word to help form this party. In a similar way, Jack Layton turns me off, he doesn't know when to shut up if you have nothing intelligent to say, which is far too often.

Where is the Rhino party when we need it

[just another pilot]

Expat. I can understand your point of view regarding politicians. If they did not possess a certain amount of ambition, they would not enter politics in the first place. However, that being said, there still should exsist a certain level of integrity and ethical behavior in public office - at least in appearance if not in practice. I don't believe any of the posts here deny Belinda's ambition, but rather the her audacity to claim issues of principles.
There may be pilots who weaken the fold by working on the cheap - and some may have posted here, (I don't know) but they do not hold public office, are not voted for and unfortunately are not accountable to the masses. Maybe the post was less based in political science debate and more about honour and integrity being sold down the river for a political handshake - which ironically, is why we are in the current situation in Canadian politics.
To me, it looks like Martin has gone from paying loyalty off from under tables to front page in Parliament. The only common mentality I see in Liberal thinking is deceit and arrogance, and I hope that isn't why you respect it.

[Cat Driver]

" If everyone on this forum is prostitutes, where does that leave you? I'd have to say a traitor or maybe more of a desertor for packing your bags and leaving the country rather than staying in Canada and trying to improve the things you are so bitter at. "

Then I guess in your opinion I also am a traitor for leaving Canada to find work?

Would you please explain to me how I could improve things when I am denied the right to work in Canadian aviation by TC?

It must be nice to be so judgemental of your fellow colleauges, so how about some advice as to how I can get employment in your marvelous world?

Cat

[Rubberbiscuit]

No Cat! I definetly don't see you or anyone else working outside of Canada as traitors. I was trying to be sarcastic, but I guess I failed. As a matter of fact I am looking abroad myself, and I have many good friends that have left Canada to seek employment.

I was offended by Expat painting everyone here in Canada with one brush, namely as prostitutes. I for one is an adult whom is 100% responsible for my own decisions, and I certainly won't be blaming every other pilot in Canada for for finding myself abroad if that is where I end up!

[Cat Driver]

[swede]

Quote " I could not then, and can't now, bring myself to support any party Harper leads."

I would not trust Harper either. I think Martin has more personal integrity and doubt that he had much, if anything to do with the sponsorship deal. That was Chretiens mess and as usual he just wants to skate right out of that one. They should have called him Mr. Teflon, the guy is an arrogant, self serving flake. Harper is simply trying to capitalize on the whole mess any way he can, that is obvious and I don't blame Stronach for jumping.

[dxprguy]

I have been trying to bend my head around this, but I really can't see what anyone would see that is so endearing about the Liberals? Is there someone out there that can give me a valid reason why the lot of them shouldn't be kicked to the street? And please spare me the "I just don't trust Harper crap" that's just justification in your dillusional minds to keep the status quo. If you are looking for "trust" don't look to the party that has lied, stolen, set up kick back schemes, wasted our hard earned and overpaid taxes, bought votes, seriously breached parlimentary conduct and pretty much gloated about the whole thing confident they will maintain power as long as they have centralized support.

[just another pilot]

Swede. Martin was Finance Minister. They are a corrupt government. They have ammended the February budget to avoid accountability and buy seats in the Commons. Now they are buying seats right in front of Canadians. Stronach could have voted for the budget as a Conservative - without crossing the floor. If it was truely an issue of principle, then why the cabinet posting? That is a reward no different than an envelope of cash.
I don't see the non - confidence vote as a grab for power by Conservatives, but rather an opportunity to punish a party that has lost the distinction between right and wrong, and be willing do anything - include impairing democracy in order to keep power.

[swede]

Just a Pilot

I think you need to look closely at Harpers motives in this non confidence vote. Also, if Martin wanted to duck the flack why did he call for an inquiry?It is pretty naive to think that Stronach could have voted against the party had she remained.

[costermonger]

I don't see the non - confidence vote as a grab for power by Conservatives

Maybe you don't but I think Stephen Harper does. The Liberals haven't been this low in the polls for years. I've got no problem with having an election, but I want to hear the results of the hugely expensive comission investigating the adscam kickbacks before we have an even more expensive election. If the Liberals are as corrupt as some of you guys keep insisting, the Conservatives shouldn't have any trouble winning an election after the report is tabled.

[. ._]

It just goes to show how little difference there is between the Liberals and the Tories.

Man, it burns my ass that a ditzy university drop out can get into cabinet, and that ditzy university drop out isn't me.

But... flying is fun.

-istp

[Siddley Hawker]

Don't say a whole lot about the quality of the Librano back bench. Martin had to go outside the party to fill a Cabinet post.

[DA900]

Wow Belinda you just keep on getting more classy not only do you pull a Benedict Arnold she sneaks behind her boyfriend's back Peter MacKay goes to 24 Sussex Drive and then comes back and tells him she is joining the Liberals and dumps him. He said he had no idea. The poor guy was almost crying on TV and she is nothing but smiles. Nice life you live there bitch, daddy's rich spoiled girl getting what she wants. No wonder she has 2 ex-husband.

[just another pilot]

I don't think Harper's motives are any different than Martin's. Of course the guy wants to be PM - so what? They both do. Do you think if the situation was reversed the Liberals wouldn't do the same? Lets remember why the shit hit the fan in the first place. Wait six months? Canadians are already forgeting. And when the commision is done, who is in charge? Thats right, the mother of all political whores Miss turn around so I can retrive my knife - Belinda Stronach.
Even if the pay-offs don't convince people, this f***ing stunt should. A grab for power? Good God.

[Expat]

Sorry for the delay in responding; times zones... Yes, when you are sitting at the top of the world it seems like you are using a wide brush to paint others. I was merely referring to some (many) pilots who accept to pay for their ratings, or fly for free, or starve their family, in the pursuit of that elusive dream of one day sitting left seat in a 744 while making 250K. Life has tought me a few things and I can afford to be cynical. When I look back I see a lot more than I see ahead. I never chased a far fetched dream, and I think that those who do will always end up desillusioned. I left the country because all conditions were ripe and I am not looking back. I may only go back in a body bag, but that is my choice.
It is amazing how different or sometimes trivial things appear from the outside. Take for exemple Uzbekistan, which is making the news now. I have a house there and think of one day retiring there. It is a great place to live, with an expat salary and a pension.
As for Belinda, I maintain everything I said about her. The liberals are just replacing Copps. Politics is all about votes, now and in the next elections. Anybody who thinks otherwise is a fool. The only countries that I seen where the governments made sensible long term decisions did not sport our western Imerican Idol style democracy. Or should I say "The Weakest Link" for those who watch the British show.
When a government gets elected on the promise of repelling the GST and doen't, people cry foul but are ready to fight the world to preserve our great democratic system. A lot of political decisions are made, if not all, to positively impact the polls and popularity of the ruling party. That in my sense is despicable.
Plato said in the "Republic" that after considerable thinking he came to the conclusion that the only person that could rule the city or country should be the one who wants the job the least. It makes sense to me.

[Go Guns]

sneaks behind her boyfriend's back Peter MacKay goes to 24 Sussex Drive and then comes back and tells him she is joining the Liberals and dumps him.

I imagine it would be difficult to keep a good relationship with the deputy leader of the Conservative party when you're a Liberal cabinet member.

Perhaps they should've kept dating, as a personal joke. Just to see what kind of reaction they would get.

[costermonger]

They both do. Do you think if the situation was reversed the Liberals wouldn't do the same?

I wouldn't be in favour of an election until I heard the results of that comission if the parties were reversed.

Lets remember why the shit hit the fan in the first place. Wait six months? Canadians are already forgeting.

Alright, an admission that it's a grab for power while the gettin's good. But then you say:

A grab for power? Good God.

Huh? You just admitted that Harper was being oportunistic. I'm not saying I blame him but you're stupid if you think he wants an election out of his pure desire to do what's best for the country. He wants to win an election, he thinks he might be able to right now, so he wants to call one. Why is this such a hard fact to swallow? That man, like every other politician throughout time, is more concerned with his own career than with the good of the country.

I'm not saying Martin's not a smug prick, but Harper's an opportunistic asshole who wouldn't hesitate to spend 250 million dollars if he thinks it might result in the Conservatives forming the government.

It's the nature of politics dude, that's how it is. Harper's bloodthirsty and he thinks the Liberals are bleeding. That's his job as leader of the opposition. Pretending it's not is rather naive.

[cyyz]

How the fark did the dollar go up after the move???

Political instability = Stable dollar? Jesus, who are these guys(rhetorical)??

[just another pilot]

Costermonger. I'm not naive, nor am I stupid. This was a good exchange until you dropped to that level. The comment regarding the grab for power was merely a reaction to you accusing only Harper of it. This may be the nature of politics, but there is such a thing as over simplifying it. You attack Harper for trying to grab power and ignore how Martin defends it. But hey dude , I'm stupid remember?

[Nightshiftzombie]

I really can't see what anyone would see that is so endearing about the Liberals?

Ok here goes.

#1 Ever listen to Harper talk about the federal govenment? He seems to think that it's roll should be to give every cent it has to the provincial governments, annd then but out and allow them to spend it any way they please. I kind of think Martin has gone a little to far in this direction but I'm sure the Tories would bee worse.

#2 I don't feel that we need to follow the Americans every time they decide to launch an international crusade. No matter how bad Cretien gets trashed in the inquiry he at least kept us out of that mess in Iraq.

#3 I don't care if gay people want to get married to each other. I don't think that parliment should be throwing the notwithstanding clause around willy nilly, overturning Supreme court decisions.

Wow Belinda you just keep on getting more classy not only do you pull a Benedict Arnold

Taking a Canadian/Loyalist view I'd have said Benedict Arnold was the good guy.

[DA900]

#1 Ever listen to Harper talk about the federal govenment? He seems to think that it's roll should be to give every cent it has to the provincial governments, annd then but out and allow them to spend it any way they please. I kind of think Martin has gone a little to far in this direction but I'm sure the Tories would bee worse.

I see so letting the province and the people deciding what and how they chose to spend their money should be done at the federal level. This may surprise you but people in Alberta BC. may have different priorities then Nova Scotia and PEI. and don't need their big brother telling them this is how its to be spent.

#2 I don't feel that we need to follow the Americans every time they decide to launch an international crusade. No matter how bad Cretien gets trashed in the inquiry he at least kept us out of that mess in Iraq.

So accountability for your actions means nothing as long as you do something that you morally find acceptable. Well I have news for you being a leader of anything means you have to do it right. Just because you give money to your friends dosn't mean you can rob a bank.

#3 I don't care if gay people want to get married to each other. I don't think that parliment should be throwing the notwithstanding clause around willy nilly, overturning Supreme court decisions.

I agree with you on the gay marrage issue. I do take issue with the Supreme court deciding which laws it wants to pass. The Supreme is there to rule on the laws passed by Parliament. Not to decide a law its self.

Taking a Canadian/Loyalist view I'd have said Benedict Arnold was the good guy.

This I don't understand. The reference to Benedict obvious. If you can defend people who have no problem walking over others to get what they want that says alot about you. Its called a principles.

IMHO

[just another pilot]

The Devil can rationalize anything. CM - you can quote me.

[costermonger]

You attack Harper for trying to grab power and ignore how Martin defends it.

I attack Harper because of the people who have such a hard-on for him that they insult the intelligence of people who don't agree with his views. I know the Liberals are seriously f*cked up but you need to do more than just point that out for me to vote for somebody I disagree with on almost every issue.

It says something about Harper's style that after a few years as Leader of the Opposition and an election, I still don't really know what he plans to do with Canada's foreign policy. A couple hundred million dollars in kickbacks is nothing compared to the expense we would've incurred (in money and in lives) if Stephen Harper was Prime Minister when the US invaded Iraq.

I attack Harper for wanting to spend a quarter of a billion dollars on an election before we actually get to hear anything more than speculation about the findings of the Gommery Inquiry. We should have an election when we, the people of Canada, have all the facts, not waste a massive amount of money because Harper thinks he might get elected.

If the findings of the Gommery Inquiry implicate senior Liberal party members, Harper will have absolutely no trouble winning an election. I think he's afraid there's not going to be a smoking gun, so he wants to go to the polls now, when people are real worked up about it.

An election without the facts is just as big a waste of money as the sponsorship kickbacks. Let's get the facts, then have an election.

[swede]

CM - You are absolutely right, had Harper been PM at the time, Harper would have almost certainly followed George Smirks lead in going into Iraq. The cost of that to Canada, compared to the sponsorship deal, would have been beyond calculation.

[just another pilot]

Beyond calculation because it is speculation. I don't have a "hard-on" for Harper, nor have I ever asked, or told anyone for that matter, who they should vote for. You accuse me of attacking someones intelligance? Perhaps a bit hypocritical? - it was you who went on the offensive.
Now you are basing your argument on what might of happened if the Conservative might have been in power? Leave to a Liberal minded person to justify a lack of ethics, morals and principles by rationalizing that it is better the devil you know. By the way, where are you from? I'm curious because the answer may give me some insight regarding your socioeconomic situation.