Using a vendors cash leaves you at the mercy of a single vendor. There will always be sytings attached. Strings serving the interest of the one who provided cash rather than interest in the corporation needing restructuring.
Diversification is required for all the companies born out of ACE.
Jazz will one day hold AC for ransom if left unchanged.
Diversification? Jazz is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. The work that Jazz (temporarily) secured that drove many AC supporters nuts has since migrated to WJ and now the combination of WJ/WJV/TC will act to further erode the AC/ACV market share. Perhaps having the TC work placed at Jazz was not so bad? Hindsight is always 20/20. The only certainty in life is change.
$1.5B changes hands between AC and Jazz every year. That leaves lots of room (and reasons) to reach a mutually beneficial arrangement. The parties can either figure out an acceptable commercial relationship or eventually cross paths in court during CCAA proceedings. AC had better study what is going on at AMR because the arrogant assumption that there will be only one corporate sponsored Plan of Arrangement is proving naive.
Things have been relatively calm since the union and company have agreed to go back to the table for ten days of negotiations. This is all the pilots have wanted in the first place even though few people have much faith that the company has changed their attitude. That lack of faith has been justified.
Against our contract a very senior manager has just sent letters out via Fedex to pilots who were booked off unfit a little over a week ago, requiring them to produce a Doctor's note or it will be considered an illegal job action by the CIRB.
We get one tiny little bit of progress in this unprecedented gong show and they start issuing threats?????
Rockie wrote:This company is their own worst enemy.
Things have been relatively calm since the union and company have agreed to go back to the table for ten days of negotiations. This is all the pilots have wanted in the first place even though few people have much faith that the company has changed their attitude. That lack of faith has been justified.
Against our contract a very senior manager has just sent letters out via Fedex to pilots who were booked off unfit a little over a week ago, requiring them to produce a Doctor's note or it will be considered an illegal job action by the CIRB.
We get one tiny little bit of progress in this unprecedented gong show and they start issuing threats?????
If I was still flying for the airline and was the recipient of such a letter, I would simply ignore it as it is against the contract now in force, so one does not step outside the current contract parameters. If said senior manager chose to pursue the subject any farther, again, if it was I that was the recipient, he and I would most probably end up in a Court of law where same manager would be risking a very severe undressing.
You people know your rights so how about some '' in my face sucker '' attitude, once again all within the boundaries of the contract with upmost civility.
Senior managers do not decide for the CIRB, even if they think they do, it is the CIRB that issues decisions. To use and deform a Duranium dixit, '' big windbag with no edible meat ''
The ridiculousness of this letter's demand is one thing. What concerns me more is the stupidity of the timing just as we see a tiny glimmer of light.
The fact that this manager is one of the main company negotiators we are sitting across the table from doesn't bode well for the next ten days either. This almost seems like a deliberate attempt to sabotage negotiations before they even start.
Rockie wrote:This company is their own worst enemy.
Things have been relatively calm since the union and company have agreed to go back to the table for ten days of negotiations. This is all the pilots have wanted in the first place even though few people have much faith that the company has changed their attitude. That lack of faith has been justified.
Against our contract a very senior manager has just sent letters out via Fedex to pilots who were booked off unfit a little over a week ago, requiring them to produce a Doctor's note or it will be considered an illegal job action by the CIRB.
We get one tiny little bit of progress in this unprecedented gong show and they start issuing threats?????
If I was still flying for the airline and was the recipient of such a letter, I would simply ignore it as it is against the contract now in force, so one does not step outside the current contract parameters. If said senior manager chose to pursue the subject any farther, again, if it was I that was the recipient, he and I would most probably end up in a Court of law where same manager would be risking a very severe undressing.
You people know your rights so how about some '' in my face sucker '' attitude, once again all within the boundaries of the contract with upmost civility.
Senior managers do not decide for the CIRB, even if they think they do, it is the CIRB that issues decisions. To use and deform a Duranium dixit, '' big windbag with no edible meat ''
Les Lavoie
I couldn't agree more Les, all recipients should forward said letter to acpa and have them deal with it en masse through legal council citing the current contract and tell the "Big Wig" manager to go suck eggs!
This is gall at it's lowest........... NW
Rockie wrote:This company is their own worst enemy.
Things have been relatively calm since the union and company have agreed to go back to the table for ten days of negotiations. This is all the pilots have wanted in the first place even though few people have much faith that the company has changed their attitude. That lack of faith has been justified.
Against our contract a very senior manager has just sent letters out via Fedex to pilots who were booked off unfit a little over a week ago, requiring them to produce a Doctor's note or it will be considered an illegal job action by the CIRB.
We get one tiny little bit of progress in this unprecedented gong show and they start issuing threats?????
If I was still flying for the airline and was the recipient of such a letter, I would simply ignore it as it is against the contract now in force, so one does not step outside the current contract parameters. If said senior manager chose to pursue the subject any farther, again, if it was I that was the recipient, he and I would most probably end up in a Court of law where same manager would be risking a very severe undressing.
You people know your rights so how about some '' in my face sucker '' attitude, once again all within the boundaries of the contract with upmost civility.
Senior managers do not decide for the CIRB, even if they think they do, it is the CIRB that issues decisions. To use and deform a Duranium dixit, '' big windbag with no edible meat ''
Les Lavoie
I couldn't agree more Les, all recipients should forward said letter to acpa and have them deal with it en masse through legal council citing the current contract and tell the "Big Wig" manager to go suck eggs!
This is gall at it's lowest........... NW
The letters should also be forwarded to TC(for what that may be worth) because it can be argued AC is trying to force pilots to work even if they are unfit with these threats.
I have heard recently that the latest ACPA proposal to the company has singled out Jazz again! Supposedly ACPA proposes that Jazz operate a single fleet of either 705s or Q400s, not both, which would obviously have a reduction in fleet and would have Sky Regional or other entities operate the other airframes. This would mean a loss of jobs and more competition which if true means ACPA has learned nothing from the past or the present US business model.
If this is true, I have no reason to doubt it is true, then the title of this thread should be "Back to the table, and all the negative energy ACPA is known for"
I was almost feeling sorry for you guys, however thankfully you reinforce my animosity towards your group at every turn. Now I can go back to having a personal enjoyment of every time CR squeezes your testies an watching you squirm!
I have heard recently that the latest ACPA proposal to the company has singled out Jazz again! Supposedly ACPA proposes that Jazz operate a single fleet of either 705s or Q400s, not both, which would obviously have a reduction in fleet and would have Sky Regional or other entities operate the other airframes. This would mean a loss of jobs and more competition which if true means ACPA has learned nothing from the past or the present US business model.
If this is true, I have no reason to doubt it is true, then the title of this thread should be "Back to the table, and all the negative energy ACPA is known for"
I was almost feeling sorry for you guys, however thankfully you reinforce my animosity towards your group at every turn. Now I can go back to having a personal enjoyment of every time CR squeezes your testies an watching you squirm!
mbav8r;
Did you know gullible is not in the dictionary? Either someone was yanking your easy-to-yank chain or you are just posting inflammatory comments.
There is an information black-out from both sides of the table until the 10 day negotiating period ends. No information is getting out.
Do you really think that Jazz/CPA is the focal point of these negotiations? Your self interest is clouding what this fight is truly for. Stop stirring the pot with innuendo and speculation. The Jazz CPA is EXTREMELY low on a very long list of priorities. IMO (just a regular ACPA member).
When Jazz was in negotiations you got support from myself and other ACPA members. Now it is our turn and you wish ill towards other pilots. You put the "ass" in class.
You guys gotta stop bickering and get out more this weekend....you are all posting he said/she said RUMORS and for that reason alone you should not be arguing here and showing hatred towards one another ....use your head more and unless you are ON the bargaining committee (which you are not) don't get caught up with this none-sense! Otherwise you will become just like Americans believing whatever their mainstream media says!
If you want a confirmed rumor, then I'll tell you that Jazz is receiving it's 16th Q400 for the summer period only from Sky Regional. Yes, it is true. That was given by our higher authorities gods not that long ago and it shows that even they don't have a clue as to what AC will decide but it is news to all of us....
Enjoy the long weekend folks, it's going to be a beautiful one (at least here where I am )
There is no such thing as an information blackout, per se, an agreement to not disclose anything pertaining to the discussion does not mean information won't get out. This might be the first time in history that nothing has leaked out of discussions after 9 days of talks, wow I must be easily yanked!
I believe the source to be reliable, which is why I'm angry!
My self interest, now that's rich!
If the Jazz CPA is extremely low on a long list of priorities, where does your scope clause sit, right there at the bottom, just before wearing jeans to sim?
BTW, you had my support right up until I lost the privilege to travel on the airplane I fly, ahead of somebody who hasn't even gone through the interview process yet. Yep if you wanted my support, you should have been supporting us as equals, but instead your group championed the change and some were even vocally disappointed that it doesn't go back far enough!
If the Jazz CPA is extremely low on a long list of priorities, where does your scope clause sit,
Any line pilot will tell you without scope protection there will be no Air Canada mainline. It should be priority #1.
Without proper scope there are LCC, outsourcing and whipsawing consequences. All of which are detrimental to EVERY pilot in Canada.
The rumours will fly, especially if an extension to these talks is announced tomorrow. I still believe the corporation has zero need and zero interest in negotiating with ACPA... they are just trying to delay to get through as much of the "busy" season as possible.
The dysfunctional and incompetent management continues...
The latest is that an entire management department was created to patrol employees using non-"authentic" uniforms. FA's and pilots have been buying similar facsimiles to save on their uniform costs. Instead of providing uniforms for employees they have created an entire department to patrol it.
yycflyguy wrote:
The latest is that an entire management department was created to patrol employees using non-"authentic" uniforms. FA's and pilots have been buying similar facsimiles to save on their uniform costs. Instead of providing uniforms for employees they have created an entire department to patrol it.
When the buttons pop off do we have to replace them? Who pays for this?
Without proper scope there are LCC, outsourcing and whipsawing consequences. All of which are detrimental to EVERY pilot in Canada.
Exactly my point, if what I said above is true, then your scope will have a broad definition of who can do tier 2 flying. If that's the case and your negots team think it will only create a whipsaw for Jazz and sky, then they will be in for a very rude awakening down the road, but hey why start worrying about the future now.
Our NC recently added the Scope Committee Chairman to the fold. He is a very smart man and is very much interested in the protection of ALL pilots... we are very aware and are preparing for a sustainable airline and agreement. Scope is a huge focus.
I was almost feeling sorry for you guys, however thankfully you reinforce my animosity towards your group at every turn. Now I can go back to having a personal enjoyment of every time CR squeezes your testies an watching you squirm!
Careful what you wish for. Karma can be a real bitch. CR has been fairly vocal about attacking the CPA. With or without a CCAA filing I think you should realize that management is out to cornhole both groups. So do we fight them together or as fragmented, petty groups?
Respectfully Yycflyguy, let's not act like CR is a knight on a white horse waving a sword proclaiming war on the Jazz CPA .. this is the same CPA CR and RM put together to line the pockets of rich people, including themselves.
Mbav8r .. I think your a bit out of line. I agree where there is smoke there is fire, but you can't take the rumour to heart. There is no need to call out fellow pilots and wish ill will towards them, they are not the corporation and they don't make corporate decisions. Maybe a bit of discretion could be used next time.
I'd like to think we've all made enough trips around the toilet bowl to figure out that we need to think co-operatively before the final flush.
It's funny how all interconnected we all are now. What happens at mainline and Jazz will have an impact on our contract talks over at WJ. I really wish global solution had of worked out, or something, anything to get the groups somewhat aligned. Without all the pilots pulling in the (relatively) same direction, flying will be dangled and the groups all scramble to offer their services for lower and lower WOWCON.
I look forward to the day the Jazz and AC pilots give a nod to each other in passing without the underlying animosity behind it.
KAG wrote:It's funny how all interconnected we all are now. What happens at mainline and Jazz will have an impact on our contract talks over at WJ. I really wish global solution had of worked out, or something, anything to get the groups somewhat aligned. Without all the pilots pulling in the (relatively) same direction, flying will be dangled and the groups all scramble to offer their services for lower and lower WOWCON.
I look forward to the day the Jazz and AC pilots give a nod to each other in passing without the underlying animosity behind it.
Good luck on your talks.
If ACPA and ALPA could ever figure out that it is everyone's best interest to work together, holding meetings monthly or bi monthly; all pilots, both companies and the different employee groups would all be better off because the "suits'' wouldn't be able to squeeze anyone to make them squirm and we wouldn't be watching guys walk away with multi-million dollar bonuses while we all fight over who will do what for the least amount.
Pretty much the only place I see animosity between Jazz and AC pilots is on this forum. I commute on Jazz regularly and in the last 4 yrs have only witnessed it ONCE. In real life 99% of the guys and gals get along just fine.
bcflyer wrote:Pretty much the only place I see animosity between Jazz and AC pilots is on this forum. I commute on Jazz regularly and in the last 4 yrs have only witnessed it ONCE. In real life 99% of the guys and gals get along just fine.
I too wish we could all work together. I always give the nod or smile and the rate of return is only about 50%. I am not saying it is everyone but the western based crews seem to be a lot more friendly. Mainline needs the tier 2 and 3 carriers and the tier 2 and 3 carriers need the mainline. Regardless of other peoples opinions on who you fly for a friendly nod, smile or hello is nice professional courtesy that I will always continue. It doesn't matter who you work for or what has happened with the pass travel changes, my jumpseat will always be open to you!
Happy flying
bcflyer wrote:Pretty much the only place I see animosity between Jazz and AC pilots is on this forum. I commute on Jazz regularly and in the last 4 yrs have only witnessed it ONCE. In real life 99% of the guys and gals get along just fine.
I guess the reason for that would be the ability to remain anonymous .. its easier to speak freely when you know your comments won't come back to bite you, but I do hope/think you're right.
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