Should the west seperate?

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Tue May 24, 2005 1:15 pm

Alberta municipalities pay for police services. Taxpayers and private investors payed for the CPR. National Parks rely on user fees. We have fresh water from glaciers and we generate our own electricity from our coalmines. We can import metals. People who want to remain Canadian and work may do so, but they will need a passport and work visa. Alberta can run medicare for Albertans better than Ontarions. Kyoto? You don't think we could sell our energy? Ottawa has not helped Alberta's beef industry any more than the wheat pool has helped our farmers. There is a lot more than 30 years of reserves in Alberta - a lot more. The problem with the Alberta government is that it opposes Ottawa's attempts to siphon wealth. A Federal government in a country the size of Canada equals a central government, designed to serve the majority of votes - in the East. Trudeau stayed up several nights with his buddy Lalonde and dreamed up the National Enery Policy - and that my friend screwed Alberta big time.

sakism · Post by **sakism** » Tue May 24, 2005 1:52 pm

swede · Post by **swede** » Tue May 24, 2005 2:34 pm

Just take a north south line along the westernmost part of the Hudson Bay, call the east side Canada Lite, the other Canada West. Two separate countries - voila. Let Ontario deal with Quebec, they deserve each other

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DA900 · Post by **DA900** » Tue May 24, 2005 3:04 pm

sakism wrote:Municipalities may pay for police services. RCMP officers, however, are employed by the Federal government and all their equipment belongs to the Federal government. Therefore - no federal government - no RCMP.

Not a big deal Alberta has been researching setting up its own provincial police force. Just like Ontario or Quebec.

National parks belong to the Federal government. Therefore - no federal government - Banff and Jasper remain part of Canada. No Banff or Jasper means no glaciers. Not that those glaciers could do anything about fresh water for the people of Hanna (for example).

That could be the dumbest thing I have read in a long time. First of all that land is still Alberta. No different then a CFB Cold Lake or CFB Edmonton that land would have to be returned to the province. Second of all the glaciers do not belong to the Federal Government no more then Columbia river would belong to BC. You can not shut off rivers to other province or states. Just the damage to the environment alone would be catastrophe.

As for electricity - where exactly would you get your coal? Import it along with any metals you need? Sounds like a non-existent manufacturing sector to me. That means even more importing.

I would suggest you do some research into Alberta's coal industry before making a comment like that.

Why would people buy your oil? It is cheaper for Ontario to get its oil from elsewhere than to get it from Alberta. If it is cheaper for Ontario to get it from elsewhere, who do you think you'll sell it to?.

Again I would suggest you do some research on where the oil really goes "
Canada, the largest source of imported oil for the United States, has historically sent almost all its exports of oil south by pipeline to help quench America's thirst for energy. But that arrangement may be about to change as China, which has surpassed Japan as the second-largest market for oil, flexes its muscle in attempts to secure oil, even in places like the cold boreal forests of northern Alberta, where the oil has to be sucked out of the sticky, sandy soil."

Ottawa may not have helped the beef farmers, but I eat Alberta beef all the time. If, after seperation, a mad-cow scare closes the Canadian border to Alberta beef - there goes a large chunk of people who right now buy your beef.

Quite a few of your arguments seem to suggest that Alberta and the rest of Canada are barred from doing trade anymore. The thread stated that Alberta could seperate and still control its own interests. I don't recall a wall being built around it cut off from the rest of the world. IMHO

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Tue May 24, 2005 3:54 pm

Alberta does not need the RCMP anymore than Quebec does. We still pay for policing, wether it is a federal or provincial force. Keep the National parks, but how will you stop the flow of water? First Nations? Yes, they're perfectly happy with Canada too - just ask the Lubicons. Just where do you think Alberta markets its energy? It's the world market -not Ontario. The petroleum industry in Alberta doesn't set prices, it takes them. Thank you for eating beef, and for that matter, thank you for driving you car and heating your home.
The National Energy Policy/Program.
In his introduction to to the NEP, Energy Minister Mark Lalonde stated that the policy had three objectives: It was to establish a basis for Canadians to seize control of their own energy future through security of supply and ultimate independance from the world oil market. It must offer all Canadians an opportunity to participate in the energy industry in general and the petroleum industry in particular, and to share in the energy industry expansion. It must establish a petroleum pricing and revenue sharing regime that recognizes the requirements of fainess to all Canadians no matter where they live.
The NEP had come on the heels of the notion that Albertans were obliged to share their windfall of resource wealth. This was the cornerstone of federal Liberal policy towards Alberta. The 1980 election stategy of the Liberals was the suggestion that Alberta was not sharing their good fortune with the rest of the country. Stands true today - Albertans are greedy blue eyed shieks and un-Canadian.
Jean Cretien summed it up when he was a member of the Trudeau government; "Some Westerners, in their time of success had forgotten the concept of sharing on which Canada had been built." This type of admonation and charge from government promoted the idea in central and eastern Canada that Alberta was/is a selfish member of confederation. This would be the pretext for the NEP.
Was this an accurate assessment of Alberta? No it wasn't. When an official assessment came in the numbers were so large they boggled the mind.
Figures compiled by economist Robert Mansell at the University of Calgary showed that by 1985 the NEP and its related tax policies had resulted in the net transfer of wealth from the producing provinces to the federal government and energy consumers of aproximately $100 billion. Ninety per cent had been sucked out of Alberta. 60 per cent of the transfer was caused by the sale of oil and gas below the world price (as a result of federal regulation and control). The other $40 billion came from taxes on energy resouces and producers. The Liberal allegations were proved to be false.

Province Total(billion of $ 1994) Per Capita ($ 1994)
GIVERS
AB 138.8 2,096
Ont. 45 183

TAKERS

Nfld. -56.3 -3,166
PEI -15.3 -3,945
NS -94.7 -3,525
NB -63 -2,867
Que. -167.6 -803
Man. -50.3 -1,501
Sask. -36.4 -1,157
BC -6.1 -11
Terr. -26.1 -12,241

For all other provinces, federal expenditures and transfers exeeded contributions to the federal treasury. Rather than the spoiled rednecks of confederation, Alberta had actually contributed far more to the nation than any other province. Mansell's research indicated that during the 27 years he examined, Albertans had been subjected to the largest per capita transfer of wealth ever recorded in a democratic nation.
There are plenty of resources regarding the NEP on the internet.

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Tue May 24, 2005 4:02 pm

After all, what benefit does the average farmer from Taber contribute to the overall well being of the average Albertan?

Are you insane? They bring us corn!

Dump the rest of Canada, but we need Taber, and wherever they get the hops for Big Rock.

sakism · Post by **sakism** » Wed May 25, 2005 5:16 am

It is very nice to see that Albertans are so proud of their home. Like I said, I loved every minute I spent in Calgary.

I just wish we could all get along.

Thanks for the explanation on the NEP.

Now - here's an interesting question. Being that Canada is a country founded and built around the idea of the central government holding more control than the provinces, could a province (other than Quebec, because of their 'unique' status) legally seperate?

bizjet_mania · Post by **bizjet_mania** » Wed May 25, 2005 5:35 am

i always say, put albertas government in BC and i am there.

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Wed May 25, 2005 9:39 am

Hmm. I'm certainly no expert in that field, so I guess it would be up to the lawyers on how and what would separate. However, being that we are a democratic society, I can't see how Ottawa could justly prevent it.
One of the reasons we have such a centralized government was Macdonald's fear of a similar civil war like our friends to the south. He believed that the individual state in the Union had to much power. It was a progressive agrarian movement in the west that extracted power from Ottawa - specifically resource rights (prior to 1948).
The Reform party platform centered around senate reform - triple E, which was equal, elected and effective. You could still have the democratic process, and representation by population while having regions equally represented in a senate. But because regions lack this representation, we have a divided house and an ineffective minority government. This country is so badly divided now, that it can't even bring a vile and corrupt government to justice.
The Iraq war and gay marriage issues are not a concern in Alberta - they just aren't. The West is not unlike the 13 colonies and Britain - no tax without representation, and we're tired of paying for Liberal budgets that serve the popular vote in the East.

wha happen · Post by **wha happen** » Wed May 25, 2005 10:31 am

I've always wondered why Albertans have such a chip on their shoulders about Ottawa

Its called western alienation. If you grew up in alberta or anywhere in western canada you would understand. We get screwed all the time by the fat cats in ottawa. When was the last time that we had a western prime minister? ... . We pay taxes to this country, why, to be ignored when we ask for something. Canada is really made up of two halves, west and east. It kills me to admit that but its true. I was raised out west and have now been transplanted in the east, completely different country, attitudes, life outlook , everything.

So I dont know if that answered any questions but i just needed to vent.

hz2p · Post by **hz2p** » Wed May 25, 2005 10:49 am

The rest of the country must be pretty stupid if they can't see why people outside of Ontario are sick and tired of having a crooked lawyer from Quebec as prime minister.

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Wed May 25, 2005 11:54 am

Even the poll here is split fifty fifty. I'm curious, could the "no" votes be eastern based?