4 fatal - crash nw of Waterloo ON Aug 24 2012

[Dagwood]

I once had a student who loved doing spins. He couldn't wait to get his PPL and show his buddies how to spin a 172. I explained that a spin is an aerobatic maneuver, and as such he needed special training to carry passengers, not to mention that the 172 is not an aerobatic airplane. I made it quite clear to him that if he ever did spins as a PPL even solo, he would be renting somewhere else, if he came back alive.

I find the 2nd picture above disconcerting. The corn within 2 feet of the wing never got touched. An airplane gliding in wouldn't leave a lack of surrounding damage.

RIP

[Ivan42]

What possesses people to do spins with passengers anyway?

I didn't want to believe that this was an "avoidable incident" as some others said earlier; however, reading the two posts above makes me feel a bit doubtful. Still, the news reports seem to indicate that the spin they were in was unintentional.

All this is very perplexing. I still can't come to terms with how things like this can happen, even after hours of training and practice for the PPL and CPL. The curricula try to prepare us for almost everything, yet, 4 people died on Friday for god knows what reason.

[Doc]

I once had a student who loved doing spins. He couldn't wait to get his PPL and show his buddies how to spin a 172. I explained that a spin is an aerobatic maneuver, and as such he needed special training to carry passengers, not to mention that the 172 is not an aerobatic airplane. I made it quite clear to him that if he ever did spins as a PPL even solo, he would be renting somewhere else, if he came back alive.
RIP

Again I must ask the question. Why do we teach spins? When I instructed, we did not teach spins. Where is the value here? And, don't bother filling me with BS that you teach it, so they'll recognize one. I ain't buying what you're selling. And, this isn't my first rodeo.
If that's a envelope of flight a student pilot wants to explore, there are very good aerobatic instructors out there that can teach spins etc., in an aircraft designed for the purpose. A 172, is NOT.
I greatly fear, that if spins were not part of a pilot's curriculum, these folks' sight seeing trip, would have been, just that.
We're not learning to fly in Sopwith Camels any more. There is no longer a reason to teach spins.

[Doc]

What possesses people to do spins with passengers anyway?
.

Because their instructor taught them to spin (see my above post) and they just have to show somebody?
I'll bet most of us know how fast our cars/motorcycles will go, even though there's no reason to know.

[Gogona]

The area the crash was in, is the practice area for Kitchener.

That sounds interesting.

Did they pass through the PA on their way back from Niagara Falls, or they had to divert towards it?
There is nothing to do there right after the sunset, but if they headed through it in order to get their home airport, it's just easier to believe, that this spin was actually unintentional (twilight, multiply distractions, maybe incorrect weight & ballance with full load, etc.)

[Shiny Side Up]

Where is the value here? And, don't bother filling me with BS that you teach it, so they'll recognize one. I ain't buying what you're selling.

You should though. One of the worst things I've seen is people who don't or haven't seen a spin, is that they have a real bad tendancy to try to inadvertantly enter them. Usually in the worst place too, the turn from base to final. In something as docile as a 172 to boot. All you need is a little bit of crosswind on the approach from the inside of the turn to get a good demo of this. From my experience FAA certificate holders are bad for this - one guy who even had his CFII did it, when I asked him later he could count how many times he spun an airplane on one hand with fingers left over. Scary shit. Several JAA pilots whom I've worked with converting to TC license were also particularly bad. One guy I swore shit himself when we did a minor turning stall and got a wing drop, five hundred hours and he claimed he'd never seen that before.

What's worse now is that these sort of incapabilities are starting to show up in Canadian license holders, since instructors are getting more and more lax with it, unfortunately as evidenced by the above.

[cdnpilot77]

The area the crash was in, is the practice area for Kitchener.

That sounds interesting.

Did they pass through the PA on their way back from Niagara Falls, or they had to divert towards it?
There is nothing to do there right after the sunset, but if they headed through it in order to get their home airport, it's just easier to believe, that this spin was actually unintentional (twilight, multiply distractions, maybe incorrect weight & ballance with full load, etc.)

The crash in the practise area is more than 20miles north of Kitchener, Niagara Falls is in the oppposite direction from Kitchener

[Gogona]

The area the crash was in, is the practice area for Kitchener.

That sounds interesting.

Did they pass through the PA on their way back from Niagara Falls, or they had to divert towards it?
There is nothing to do there right after the sunset, but if they headed through it in order to get their home airport, it's just easier to believe, that this spin was actually unintentional (twilight, multiply distractions, maybe incorrect weight & ballance with full load, etc.)

The crash in the practise area is more than 20miles north of Kitchener, Niagara Falls is in the oppposite direction from Kitchener

NORTH of Kitchener? I didn't realize that thinking, it is somewhere west or southwest of the airport. So now, it looks more obvious, that they planned to have some fun there

However, if they were flying west out of Toronto downtown, this route looks more natural.

[EA757]

http://www.680news.com/news/local/artic ... ronto-area

[cdnpilot77]

NORTH of Kitchener? I didn't realize that thinking, it is somewhere west or southwest of the airport. So now, it looks more obvious, that they planned to have some fun there

However, if they were flying west out of Toronto downtown, this route looks more natural.

Not really...it's quite a ways out of the way of even that route. If you Google Conestoga Lake, the crash site is just north of that

[Doc]

What's worse now is that these sort of incapabilities are starting to show up in Canadian license holders, since instructors are getting more and more lax with it, unfortunately as evidenced by the above.

Why operated a normal category aircraft outside it's design flight envelope? Is a 172 approved for spins? So, let the wing drop in a stall, recover and on your way you go. The important thing is not to let a spin develop. Recognize, and avoid. Or, we'll have this kind of thing (if indeed this is what happened?) happening. Here, hold my beer....

[iflyforpie]

Most 172s on wheels are utility category when the rear seats and baggage are empty and they are under the required weight (usually 2000 lbs).

Yes, they should be used for spin avoidance and recovery training. Stall, spin, die still happens far too often. We train for engine failures even though most engine failures are pilot induced (carb ice, fuel starvation, fuel contamination). Spins are no different IMHO.

[ogc]

What's worse now is that these sort of incapabilities are starting to show up in Canadian license holders, since instructors are getting more and more lax with it, unfortunately as evidenced by the above.

Why operated a normal category aircraft outside it's design flight envelope? Is a 172 approved for spins? So, let the wing drop in a stall, recover and on your way you go. The important thing is not to let a spin develop. Recognize, and avoid. Or, we'll have this kind of thing (if indeed this is what happened?) happening. Here, hold my beer....

From what i remember in the P model i used to train on they are approved for spins but only within a certain weight and balance category. I seem to think an instructor myself and a half tank of fuel was all that would work.

My understanding was this limitation was to keep the weight and balance forward and prevent a flat spin

[Siddley Hawker]

...limitation was to keep the weight and balance forward and prevent a flat spin.

Take a look at the first pic on the preceeding page and study the vegetation around the aircraft. The airplane went into an area not much wider than the wing span, looks like. I lost a friend in a Norseman 40 years ago. He stalled it in a turn downwind after takeoff and the airplane flat spun into the bush, broke off one tree on the way to the ground. Same scenario in an accident a few years ago in NO someplace, some guy turning final at night in a Caravan? crashed and burned. The accident scene was not much wider than the wing span. All three accident scenes look pretty similar similar.

[EA757]

If you can believe anything that CITY TV in Toronto broadcasts, they claim
that an emergency transponder was activated????? (ELT - I would presume)

TSB investigator, Ken Webster describes the impact area at the 1 minute mark.

http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/ ... chener-ont

[ogc]

...limitation was to keep the weight and balance forward and prevent a flat spin.

Take a look at the first pic on the preceeding page and study the vegetation around the aircraft. The airplane went into an area not much wider than the wing span, looks like. I lost a friend in a Norseman 40 years ago. He stalled it in a turn downwind after takeoff and the airplane flat spun into the bush, broke off one tree on the way to the ground. Same scenario in an accident a few years ago in NO someplace, some guy turning final at night in a Caravan? crashed and burned. The accident scene was not much wider than the wing span. All three accident scenes look pretty similar similar.

I agree i didnt want to speculate but there was another picture from a helicopter showing a birdseye view barely anything around the aircraft was touched.

[126.7_STFU]

What's worse now is that these sort of incapabilities are starting to show up in Canadian license holders, since instructors are getting more and more lax with it, unfortunately as evidenced by the above.

Why operated a normal category aircraft outside it's design flight envelope? Is a 172 approved for spins? So, let the wing drop in a stall, recover and on your way you go. The important thing is not to let a spin develop. Recognize, and avoid. Or, we'll have this kind of thing (if indeed this is what happened?) happening. Here, hold my beer....

I guess stalls should not be taught either. The reality is you're always going to have someone do something stupid in a flying machine! You and your Apollo 11 credentials could not teach said individual common sense, nor could anyone else. If someone is going to spin a 172... or 320 at gross , expect problems.

I was taught how to spin , and how to recover. I think it's valuable training. Does it mean I take my grandmother up and spin the plane ? No. Does it mean I practice stalling consistently? No. Sometimes shit happens. They fly into unexpected weather ... blah blah blah, so they somehow get into a spin and they have no effin idea how to possibly save their lives? Yes, the situation should never have gotten that far and points to deficient training. But guess what...........it doesn't change the fact that they are spinning towards the ground.

[MIQ]

If you can believe anything that CITY TV in Toronto broadcasts, they claim
that an emergency transponder was activated????? (ELT - I would presume)

Most of the more modern ELTs are automated and activate after being exposed to a certain amount of G Forces. Since this aircraft is quite new for a 172, I'm pretty sure they had one of these on board and it activated on impact. Also judging by the pictures and as other people already mentioned, it seems like the airplane fell from the sky like a rock so it must have had a very slow airspeed/ground speed which is typical for a spin or a stall (not a spiral dive though). Thus so far it seems like the eye witnesses might be right with what they pretend to have seen. A 172 with four adults is usually very close to it's weight and balance limits even though at this stage of the flight they should have been within it's weight and balance limits since they went to Niagara Falls and back which from Kitchener should be close to 2 hours of flying.
It does seem very odd though that on their way back they passed Kitchener and went into the practice area, past sunset. At night, there is nothing much to see in this area which would justify a night sightseeing flight... Sunset is at 8pm and night starts at 8:30pm local these days.
That will be a very interesting investigation report to read and it is really unfortunate that so far it seems like a mistake that would have been avoidable.

[niwre]

What's worse now is that these sort of incapabilities are starting to show up in Canadian license holders, since instructors are getting more and more lax with it, unfortunately as evidenced by the above.

Why operated a normal category aircraft outside it's design flight envelope? Is a 172 approved for spins? So, let the wing drop in a stall, recover and on your way you go. The important thing is not to let a spin develop. Recognize, and avoid. Or, we'll have this kind of thing (if indeed this is what happened?) happening. Here, hold my beer....

I guess stalls should not be taught either. The reality is you're always going to have someone do something stupid in a flying machine! You and your Apollo 11 credentials could not teach said individual common sense, nor could anyone else. If someone is going to spin a 172... or 320 at gross , expect problems.

I was taught how to spin , and how to recover. I think it's valuable training. Does it mean I take my grandmother up and spin the plane ? No. Does it mean I practice stalling consistently? No. Sometimes shit happens. They fly into unexpected weather ... blah blah blah, so they somehow get into a spin and they have no effin idea how to possibly save their lives? Yes, the situation should never have gotten that far and points to deficient training. But guess what...........it doesn't change the fact that they are spinning towards the ground.

I'm with Doc on this. Too many instructors out there do the "hey watch this" for a student to truly benefit from a Fully Developed Spin lesson during AB-Initio. There should be more attention given to the recognize and avoid aspect of a Stall/Spin than the maneuver itself. Spinning a C172 continuously is also excessively hard on things like the gyros. Any instructor worth their salt can come up with enough stall scenarios that can potentially lead into a spin that they should have full confidence that should ever one of their former students need to exercise that skill they can recover successfully without ever needing to see one.

[Rookie50]

The location, clearly in cykf,s practice area, which you would have to PASS by the airport from either downtown Toronto or niagara falls to reach it, is a concern as to what might have occurred. Why fly farther to the practice area after a 2 hour flight? Not saying this happened, but it's a good topic -- demonstrating ANY (air work) flight excercises with passengers is an extremely unwise risk, if for no other reason that passengers cause distractions. Training is training, and conducting a flight --ESP with passengers --- is to be treated differently.

[Prairie Chicken]

It does seem very odd though that on their way back they passed Kitchener and went into the practice area, past sunset. At night, there is nothing much to see in this area which would justify a night sightseeing flight... Sunset is at 8pm and night starts at 8:30pm local these days.

IF it was an intentional spin, at or near night ... would there have been much of a horizon?

Dumb as it is, there are many, many Enforcement cases of ppl holders doing aerobatics with pax. Virtually always young persons of the male persuasion showing off to a friend or girlfriend. Sometimes they are super stupid & do it over a public area. I recall one who was doing various aerobatic manoeuvres over a large sporting event--directly over about 5000 people on the ground! Also directly over about 5000 witnesses with cameras.

[MrWings]

I completely agree that this could be one of several possibilities. I can tell you 1st hand that inexperienced pilots like myself at that time, sometimes make very DUMB decisions. It is infact very possible that he entered a spin or stall to "show off his skills" to his friends. Its not unheard of, I did it myself...once.

Your story is not unique. I have a buddy who did the same thing. He told me how he didn't know that the 172 couldn't be spun with passengers in the back.

He trained in a 150 and then got checked out in a 172. The instructor never mentioned it. Yes, it is in the POH but he didn't study it cover to cover and it was missed.

Why do people spin with passengers on board? To impress them. To give them a thrill. Simple as that.

Was this an intentional spin? Not convinced of that.

ps. That picture of the damaged plane makes me ill.

[tsgas]

PDM training (as well as all flight training) is only beneficial to the student pilot if they actually apply what they have learnt into actual practice.

Fools will eventually find a way of killing themselves regardless of the laws and regulations that are in place. I feel sorry for the passengers that put their faith into a system that is less than perfect.

[Doc]

Ah yes, PDM training.
And 126.7_STFU mentioned "sometimes shit happens...." which, of course it does. Look at Air France. Of course he also mentions "common sense". THIS is the big one. Common sense. He's right. Nobody can teach it. Not even those of us with "Apollo 11 credentials...."
Oh, you can teach PDM, CRM....and any warm and fuzzy course required to justify some fat cat's employment in Ottawa, but the bottom line is, the human animal is at the base of the problem. Always has been, alway will be.
STFU got it right "you can't teach common sense..."

As far as "showing off" to your buddies. When I learned to fly, I was in high school. Four of us rode our BSA/Triumph/Nortons out to King City airport. I rented a 172 (the big iron) and we took a trip over Niagara Falls. Just like these guys did in Waterloo. I didn't have to "show off" to these guys. They were in total awe of the fact four high school kids could fly an airplane over Niagara Falls, a good eight years before any of us could even rent a car! My point? Just "flying" your non-pilot buddies on a straight and level flight, impresses the crap out of them. A couple of 360's over the Horse Shoe Falls will have them babbling like baboons the rest of the school year!

[fleet16b]

Guys

We all agree that this is a very unfortunate incident.
There have been a few comments that the the pilot was most likely showing off and from outward appearances it may appear to be just that.
However, anything is possible, so maybe it would be better to wait to hear what the people investigating come up with before accusing anyone of anything.
A young pilot, who from all reports loved aviation as much as any of us died along with his friends the other night and there are four families grieving .
Discussing possible scenarios is natural but lets try to keep the blame factor to a minimum, we don't need family members reading about who is or who is not at fault