Porter to WS Encore. . .

[Johnny#5]

Dont' worry, they're will be an add some time.....

[justwork]

Dont' worry, they're will be an add some time.....

Some advice if you plan on applying, make sure someone proof reads your CV and resume.

[mbav8r]

Good advice, that's some of the worst I've seen and it's just a nine word sentence. I have to admit I made one of those mistakes recently, ad not add. Let's translate what johnny5 wrote;
Dont', with the apostrophe in the wrong spot, it's not even a word, but we all know what he meant.
They're, they are.
Add, ad.

Dont' worry, they're will be an add some time

Do not worry, they are will be an addition some time...

Johnny5, I think you meant to write, don't worry, there will be an ad some time...
That was fun, I must be bored

[Realitychex]

Will there be 100% flow through? Will only a select number of "team players" move to WJ mainline? I heard only 1 in 4 will move into WJ mainline. What about the rest? Stuck making 80% of industry median? How about I propose a great idea of paying pilots what they're worth rather than sub par wages with the hope of one day making it big. Sounds a hell of a lot better to me.

That sounds pretty similar to the deal the Royal Family got at WestJet in 1996. They are all laughing all the way to the bank.

It sounds like you aren't the sort of person they'll be looking for.

[mbav8r]

That sounds pretty similar to the deal the Royal Family got at WestJet in 1996. They are all laughing all the way to the bank.

Realitychex, these are different times and I believe the "Royal Family" was partially compensated with stock options, I've heard no mention of stock options in any of the chatter and what has been mentioned, is half of the benefits and profit sharing of the current WJ employees. Obviously none of the terms have been published, but I remain skeptical this will be the new age "Royal Family", laughing all the way to the bank.

[teacher]

No, I know what I'm worth and would no longer be accepting sub par wages justified by a dangled carrot that may or may not actually be there.

Now, there's a difference between today and having to take a job to survive in the future if needed but a lateral or in this case downward move would not be on my RADAR. Guess I'm just not Koolaid material at this time.

[jjj]

Guess I'm just not Koolaid material at this time.

Oh the irony! - in a thread that seems to center around compensation.

To say you are not "Kool aid material" in this context is like saying you are not interested in making good money.

80% blah blah blah and the other trivialities you hold onto are only a single component of what these guys will put in the bank. I'm betting their total comp will out pace Jazz.

Time will tell - 1000 bucks says you are wrong.

JJJ

[teacher]

Sorry bud, I highly doubt it will. There would be no point in starting their own "low cost" regional airline in that case. I would be very impressed if their compensation total compensation out paced Jazz and would prove that they are are industry leader in management/pilot relations.

Thing is with our benefits, wages, pension and scheduling rules there's pretty much no way. There's a reason AC is looking elsewhere for regional work and it's not because we're cheap. There in lies our problem. We are compensated fairly as Regional Pilots, unfortunately the rest of the industry disagrees.

[rigpiggy]

Why wouldn't WJ just look at buying Porter then?

[aileron]

Why wouldn't WJ just look at buying Porter then?

It's not for sale.

[scopiton]

Why wouldn't WJ just look at buying Porter then?

It's not for sale.

for now... best way to kill competition is to buy your competitor.

[justwork]

Why wouldn't WJ just look at buying Porter then?

It's not for sale.

for now... best way to kill competition is to buy your competitor.

Historically speaking, not so much.

If Westjet bought Porter they would inherit the culture as well. Westjet is a company that has a very specific culture they work hard at establishing and maintaining, it's a huge part of what makes them successful. They wouldn't mess with that.

[aileron]

Why wouldn't WJ just look at buying Porter then?

It's not for sale.

for now... best way to kill competition is to buy your competitor.

Well that might be great in the short term, but as I recall the history doesn't support your opinion in the long run: PWA & Wardair --> Canadian --> Air Canada --> Bankruptcy; Royal --> C3 --> Bankruptcy.

But you never know... ACE might make a great addition to WS

[JTF01]

Will there be 100% flow through? Will only a select number of "team players" move to WJ mainline? I heard only 1 in 4 will move into WJ mainline. What about the rest? Stuck making 80% of industry median? How about I propose a great idea of paying pilots what they're worth rather than sub par wages with the hope of one day making it big. Sounds a hell of a lot better to me.

That sounds pretty similar to the deal the Royal Family got at WestJet in 1996. They are all laughing all the way to the bank.

It sounds like you aren't the sort of person they'll be looking for.

Flow thrus are normally automatic. It will take guys from the top of the Encore list and stick them in a new hire class at WJ mainline. In the USA, flow thrus generally required 2 years in the LH seat before one was eligible to move up to mainline. I am not affiliated with WJ in any way/shape/form, but would expect them to follow a similar guideline. If a guy had a long history of busted checkrides, other violations, missed showtimes, and had made a bad name for himself, then the mainline partner would probably have thought twice about bringing him/her up. WJ will probably screen a bit tougher than most, as they want to maintain their culture, but for the most part, if you get on at Encore, I suspect you should have the chance to move up to WJ mainline.

The biggest variable will be the ratio of Encore pilots to off-the-street pilots in future WJ classes. Throughout the last 15 years of regional-to-major airline flow thrus in North America, ratios traditionally have been that 1/3 to 1/4 of seats in newhire classes will be filled by pilots flowing up from the regional subsidiary. Not sure what Encore and WJ will go with.

Now consider some math. In a very good year, WJ will hire 100 pilots. A generous flow thru ratio (based on industry precedent over the past 15 years) is 1/3, hence in a good year for WJ, 33 Encore pilots will move up to mainline.

Before those 33 Encore pilots would move up to mainline, they will likely have to serve at least 2 years in the LH seat of the Q400. For the initial cadre of Encore pilots, if they start in March/April of 2013, the earliest they would advance to WJ would be April of 2015, and that is assuming WJ is hiring.

I have heard that Encore is getting 20 Q400s (with 25 options). Assuming each aircraft will have 10 pilots (5 Capts/5 FOs). 200 pilots, when all aircraft and pilots are on the property. For the guys who are hired on in the first couple years of Encore, it can be a good deal. However if you are in the middle or the bottom of Encore's seniority list, and moving up 33 numbers (or less - remember than 33 is a very optimistic number) per year it may take a while to get to mainline. Other regionals such as Jazz or Porter would have more attrition as their pilot groups are aiming for a wide array of carriers, from AC mainline to Transat to WJ to the Gulf carriers (Emirates, Etihad, Qatar) to Cathay to a variety of other operators. The big catchet in going to Encore is getting that seniority number at WJ, and there would likely be minimal attrition elsewhere.

Here are some regionals that have used flow thrus recently. Note that similar to WJ/Encore, all were wholly-owned by a mainline subsidiary.

Compass (Northwest/Delta) - worked out quite well for most of the pilots. The ones who were hired in Compass' early days (2007) moved up to mainline Delta last year. Within the last year or so, Compass was purchased by Trans States and the flow thru is going away - however the cutoff was widely known and people who had been hired with the ultimate goal of making it to Delta still will have that chance in the future. People hired after the Trans States acquisition will not be able to flow thru, but they knew that going in.

Horizon (Alaska) - has had some sort of flow thru with its parent company, Alaska Airlines. This is generally viewed as not having giving the Horizon pilots enough opportunities to move up to mainline. Some Horizon pilots have, but many more want to but haven't had that chance.

Continental Express (Continental) - had a flow thru with Continental at the end of the 1990s and early 2000s. This flow thru was quite generous and allowed literally hundreds of COEX pilots to move up to mainline Continental. It was ended in the early 2000s, when Continental spun off Continental Express, which became ExpressJet, and has since been absorbed into the SkyWest family

American Eagle (American) - I can remember when Eagle was the place to go among regionals, as pilots were keen for the chance to advance to American. This flow thru never really worked as designed, as Eagle had a very senior pilot group and the initial batch that moved up to mainline American were hired well over a decade before the flow-thru was conceived. Then, after 9/11, the flow-thru became a "garbage dump" for American Airlines, as dozens of mainline pilots flowed down to Eagle, taking some of the most senior spots on the bid list (ERJ Captain). Pilots hired when the flow thru was conceived (late 1990s/early 2000s) will never really benefit from it.....they view it as a proverbial carrot from management that will never happen. One must also remember that in that era (late 1990s, 2000, 2001 up to 9/11), American was viewed as perhaps the best US major carrier to have a career at, so a lot of folks thought it was a good idea to go to Eagle, spend some time at the regional level, and then have the chance to flow up. Sadly this has not been the case.

Here are some regionals that were owned by mainline partners that did NOT have flow thrus: Atlantic Southeast Airlines (ASA) and Comair, both by Delta. Pinnacle (Northwest). I would mention Air Canada and the Air Canada Jazz family (Air Nova, Air Ontario, Air Alliance, AirBC) but the preferential interviews and whatnot is still a sore topic on this website.

I know in the late 1980s, Eastern Express (Eastern) and Pan Am Express (Pan Am) both had flow thrus that were reasonably quick to activate. Even before Eastern and Pan Am ceased operations because of bankruptcy, it was widely known that both carriers were on shaky ground so pilots probably did not factor it as much into their job search/selection criteria process.

Good luck to all.

jtf01