Trades people VS Pilots
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Re: Trades people VS Pilots
BINGO!Colonel Sanders wrote: Everyone is in such a slapdash, superficial hurry. And
they all want something for nothing. Gotta love that
sense of entitlement.
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Re: Trades people VS Pilots
IFP: If there is one piece of advice I could give peopleI've got much better things to spend a few grand on ... (than an ATPL)
about aviation it would be to stay flexible. You just never
know what's going to happen next. It surely will surprise
you.
Write the INRAT, do a RedBird ride, write the SARON and
SAMRA and get your ATPL. You never know when an
opportunity will arise for you to use it! I suspect it just
might happen sooner than you might think.
Re: Trades people VS Pilots
+1Colonel Sanders wrote:Had to dig back through my old logbooks, but when
I had my first ATPL signed off, I had over 1,350 hours
of PIC, day and night, single and multi-engine land.
Everyone is in such a slapdash, superficial hurry. And
they all want something for nothing. Gotta love that
sense of entitlement.
Bit of thread drift here, but it seems there's a couple of topics current right now where this would apply:
At first a lot of new aspiring pilots, like most normal folk, look to take the path to the top that has least resistance. It should just be a matter of getting that Licence and the time.
Simple, isn’t it?
After all, flying is fun.
Just like every other technical profession, including aviation, that point of view does not cut it. (it ain’t fun). At first, it seems like a cruel lesson, but it’s one that must be learned as quickly as possible.
Life is not fair.
Can you make a living at it though?
Especially in aviation.-
It’s best to get over that part as soon as possible. Accept it and get on with things.
The real truth is that it takes a depth of experience to really succeed and feel totally comfortable with aircraft operations. Trying to short circuit the process will lead you to trouble, sometimes years later down the road.
I understand the desire to start fuselage hugging as soon as possible. Don’t get me wrong though. It’s not wrong to do that. Most aspiring new pilots must do it or they wouldn’t be there in the first place, since that really is part of a pilot's psyche.
It gets really frustrating though and here’s why:
After that nice multi-engine Commercial Licence is safely in your pocket, the nice shiny old twin on the ramp starts to look a bit small after a couple of veeeery costly trips down south with the buddies.
Expensive too.
The frustration sets in when there are no jobs out there that want you with that nice newly printed Commercial, multi-engine Licence in the pocket. Nobody can help with a prospect of an employer. Employment people take your information but inform you that there are no jobs listed anywhere in the country.
None.
Except some outfit in the Middle East looking for B767 pilots - totally out of the question). You know that can’t be right though. One guy you know that got his Licence just about a year ago just got a super job as co-pilot on an IFR Navajo operation. But, sure enough, the more you look, nobody is advertising for pilots. That is a major let down. Resumes and telephone calls go no where, so the next step seems to be an Instrument Rating to make things a bit more “saleable”. Another two thousand bucks later you get one.
Finally, a job on the dock in La Ronge, Saskatchewan, shows up on an obscure web site, with a possibility of a flying “opportunity” the next fall. Better than nothing. Sure enough, you get hired to load freight fuel, tourists, beer, food, and fishermen.
Life is good. You spend another thousand bucks and get a “float” rating on a couple of days off.
The Chief Pilot does your last hour and signs your recommend form. You get your Licence a week later. Obviously, you are now a float “Ace” since the Chief Pilot signed you off. You must have an “in” with the Company now.
Your girlfriend shows up for a nice visit too, but has to go after three days, leaving behind your nice (wrinkled) white shirt with the now tarnished epaulettes. Just before she goes, she tells you she has a new job 2500 miles east from her home and now will be in Calgary, but doesn’t know a new address or phone number yet.
You spend the long cooold winter loading freight at the skiplane Base and then get moved to the AIRPORT in March. Finally there is something on wheels that you can relate to as a pilot, and that has some instruments to go “IFR” with and the guys that fly them. You get to talk, mostly briefly, with these old pilots in the Company lounge about the exciting trips to places like Cree Lake, Stony Rapids and Uranium City. Some of them even have a GPS that functions most of the time. They do have lots of experience in the last couple of years that’s worth listening to and look more than 23 years old to you. They do seem to argue with each other though. One night they even invite you to the bar for a few “Brown Pops”. You notice they seem to be able to down a beer at a frightening rate that night and don’t seem to talk to anyone but one on one with each other. One 35 year old pilot talks to you a lot though, and then drops you off at home later.
At this point things go one of two ways.
You have made it with the Chief Pilot or you haven’t.
*************************************************************************************************************
You stay for a while or you go on to something else, because either Mom, Dad, the Bank or somebody else needs some return on their “investment”.
*************************************************************************************************************
Pilots naturally get frustrated when they perceive others "using" the system to get ahead and wind up getting that nice B1900 job in the right seat when they’re sitting in the right hand seat of a Navajo for 200 hours and two months down the road. That new 1900 person can now (for a few months, at least) carry around that good old perceived ego on the shoulder and let other, former, co-workers know that "he's got it together”, and “how great things are."
All I can say to that is "wow".
I’ve noticed, however, that just about every new guy starts telling me that it ends pretty quickly when the routine starts to set in.
Pretty soon, the only thing that is routine is the boredom of being a sked pilot in a “simple” aeroplane. That seemingly complex piece of mysterious engineering magnificence is no longer a rewarding experience to fly, but becomes only a means to getting those miles or hours to pay the bills at home with the new wife. Not only that, but something always seems busted on the damn thing anyway. The owners won’t fix it because “it’s too expensive right now”, and “you probably don’t need it anyway today”. MEL’s always seem to make the trip go ahead anyway.
So what’s nexxt?
Away we go again, looking for that bigger and better, perfect fuselage that always works right, with that new and “better” company, and the challenges of a newer, nicer and “better” aeroplane.
What a beautiful fuselage.
Don’t get me wrong though,
Pilot’s are always looking for a challenge or they would have never made it as a pilot in the first place. Maybe that’s one of the reasons so many pilots get new wives so often. I can speak from experience. I was no different than anyone else out there. I’m married again, though.
Those of you new to the business, always tell me that you learned a lot from that senior, grizzled old guy with the bad attitude, in the left seat. A year later that same, used to be, new guy, is the senior, grizzled old guy with the bad attitude in the left seat.
That’s now you.
How much did you, the new guy, really learn that first tour of duty in the right seat? How much of that command decision making REALLY got learned properly?
In my opinion, not much - I know though. I’ve seen it all before.
Particularly with simulators.
New guys ALWAYS tell me it’s better, from the right seat, to observe the senior pilots making the decisions, since for some reason, unknownst to me, they think they’ve now gained that power of the almighty from those observations. A simulator almost always proves the pilot to be human.
Sure guys learn from others by watching, observing, doing and sometimes getting yelled at too. That’s how life, even outside aviation, is, anyway. We learn from experience and interaction with other people.
How much really got absorbed as a potential Commander however?
Aircraft, regardless of size still conform to the laws of physics. Little ones or big ones. What does change with size are the rules.
If anyone hasn't noticed, you can go out by yourself and get killed in a little aeroplane and only the local media makes much mention of it. Kill 9 folks and it's still just air taxi. Mere news on page 1 or 2 of the local major newspaper and a word or two on the suppertime local TV news. Commuter however, with up to 19 on board, will get national attention and maybe a public inquiry headed up by some famous notary(ity) public lawyer. Crash an airliner and the whole world knows right away. Anyone care to be the centre of that kind of attention?
From a physics point of view, what is the difference that size makes? - - None!
So let’s get down to brass tacks here.
What DOES make a difference though, and what does make Operators pay attention to those seemingly stupid little things like your depth of experience and command decision-making is really two things. Media coverage and insurance. Owners and/or Operators don’t want either one of those two going up. - Particularly when someone smashes up one of their planes. And both of those will go up if you crash their aeroplane. Those two facts will either make it or break it for you as a pilot. You have to prove you have the ability to avoid both of those issues or you are out of the picture.
You satisfy both and you have a job.
By the time you sit in the left seat you know that, not by knowledge, but it is now instinctive. I hope it’s part of your life by the time you get in that Command seat.
That’s why operators seem so damn picky when they are looking for pilots to hire.
It ain’t you.
It’s those two things that qualify you or not. Will you keep a low profile with the media and insurance company or not? Is there a chance you will crash the plane? If you are experienced and/or qualified and show you have slim, to no, chance of creating a media or insurance “preventable event” you get the job. If you can’t prove that to the operator - forget it.
That’s where the experience and command time is so very important. Most good operators can sense it somehow. Trying to BS an operator is kind of like tricking a TC Inspector into flying a powered parachute. It just ain’t gonna happen. (Now, before you get me wrong, some poor TC buggers do get ORDERED to go out and do that, but not without protests. They usually request transfers to a different branch right away after that however). (If they don’t, their peers razz them mercilessly).
If, for some reason, you make a mistake with a big aeroplane later in life and take out 100 people with you, and you had not gone through the proper “apprenticeship” period making decisions the right way in the past, you can guarantee yourself a place in(famous) history, unless you have an extremely lucky angel sitting on your shoulder.
Crash a big aeroplane and the uneducated public will know every single detail of your life, right down to whether or not your mother breast-fed you when you were young. RIGHT away. Within minutes or hours, with no holds barred. You, if you live, will get media surrounding you like goldiggers circling a new millionaire.
What are you going to say? My mother died in childbirth? My upbringing was abnormal? My father beat me all the time? My wife is a lesbian? What? How about “I was just a normal kid”? Just what can you say?
Most of us know about the seemingly “stupid” mistakes that other guys have made. They get publicized very widely in our circle of folks.
Every active Canadian pilot gets the Aviation Safety Letter with the good old A.I.P. amendment and I’ll bet when some folks read about the “accident of the month”, are sure that the command decision that the poor bugger made and then got written about, would never happen to them. I’ll just bet that most of those that did make the “wrong” decision read the Letter too. Did they make those “mistakes” on purpose? 99.99999% of the time, - no. (There have been those that just had to get even though. That accounts for the .000001% that did do it on purpose. For those, I have no cure or answer. They’re just nuts).
I also know that many of us have heard the A.T.C. tapes and have seen the C.V.R. stuff from the major crashes. Just remember that you might be a voice on one of those some day. Even “little” aeroplanes like BE-100’s might have them. Bigger stuff even records the mistakes you make with the aeroplane while you handle it.
All of this dissertation is really meant to say to you young, new freshly scrubbed faces in aviation - - Don’t try to short circuit the command time on the basic machines. You really do need it, even if right now, you see that shiny new fuselage sitting there inviting you to go along and get those “invaluable and “priceless hours”.
Later on you won’t regret getting those instructor or bush times and you will discover the really and truly priceless days that I still think were the best time of my life. I learned about Commanding an aircraft from those days. True Command!
Experience as a Pilot-in-Command on your own, leads to maturity that is NOT obtainable any other way. There is just no simple way of doing it while you become a professional in the aviation business of driving that aluminum tube around the sky. It takes time. Time, in terms of calendars, not only hours in the air. I wish there was another way. I wish that I could give all of you the benefit of experience and knowledge by osmosis somehow. Right now, there isn’t a way to do that. Until evolution changes the way we all learn, it ain’t gonna change.
It’s up to you to get the time. On your own! I think most of you can do that.
Please don’t be lured by the “fast track”. You really must, on your own, get that command time on your own, and go the “old” way to really be able to happily retire (I know, that’s the last thing on your mind right now, but) without becoming a part of world wide (infamous) aviation history.
And finally:
Everything in the company manual - policy, warnings, instructions, the works - can be summed up to read, ‘Captain it’s your baby.’
Signed:
An old TC pilot.
It's easy for us folks who have already learned these lessons to see the truth in what Check Pilot has to say. It is almost impossible to convince those who are just starting out (ATPL with the absolute bare minimums, who believe that the ATPL actually says something about their knowledge, experience, abilities) of the validity of these comments. I think we actually OWE it to the up-and-comers to keep making an effort to help them understand. In fact, I think I need to e-mail these comments off to a couple folks I know...
Tids
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Re: Trades people VS Pilots
Engineering students in co-op programs can fund quite a bit of their own education and are quite employable when they graduate.Engineers don't get any of that either. They either have rich parents, scholarships, or go eyeball deep in debt to fund a degree before looking for that first job.
That's only because we have conventions that consumer products prices are be fixed, in general. Someone else has already mentioned that plane tickets and hotel rooms DO in fact get more expensive as the supply diminishes and / or as the demand goes up. Think about the last 10 people in line. Do you think they'd be willing to pay over the MSRP for the last iPhone in the shop? I think yes.The supply and demand rule is very general. Many tomes the theory does not apply. If you go buy an iphone 5 and its the last one the have and there is a huge backorder for them does that mean that last iphone 5 on the shelf jumps up a hundred bucks?
Apple "commands" the price that they think people will pay. And people will pay it. So no reason for them to lower the price. It doesn't matter what Apple thinks their products are worth. It matters what people will pay. If everyone starts buying the competition Apple will either lower the price (Unlikely) or try to make their own product more valuable so that people MAY be willing to pay the premium again. (Likely)On the other end of the spectrum, why are apple products so expensive? Is there a shortage of the product? Nope. That is what apple commands for a price
Without the coercive power of a pan-industry union or association there will always be a new pilot who would rather take a job for minimum wages, doing what they wanted to do, rather than sell mortgages or flip burgers.
Where are pilots well paid? Middle East. East Asia. Where there is a low supply of pilots, and a high demand.
Where are they poorly paid? North America. Where this is a large supply, and a low demand.
Re: Trades people VS Pilots
Excellent Post, " Airtids ". One thing I think is missing, " Media Coverage and insurance. " plus ( As C.P.s have mentioned on here. ) looks. They hire on looks to attract customers. Sad truth.
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Re: Trades people VS Pilots
I guess there's as many different ways to fund an expensive career as there are people in it. You could strip with the Chippendales (or at least I could
), play on line poker, work part time, etc. But I think from a job description and internal hierarchy standpoint, flying is more like a trade than a profession. Apprenticeship is like the right seat, instructing, the ramp, etc. The Captain, is like being a J-man and hopefully you spend some time leading the apprentices.
If you play the game right, maybe know the right person or two, and happen to be born in the correct year or are very patient, there's a profession to move into (the airlines) if that's your chosen path. The airlines to me are more equivalent to engineering. Good pay, status, responsibility, respect, etc.
So first 5-10 years like trade without the good money, the remaining years,could be like a profession, hopefully with good money. Unless you fall off the train anywhere and then you start over.

If you play the game right, maybe know the right person or two, and happen to be born in the correct year or are very patient, there's a profession to move into (the airlines) if that's your chosen path. The airlines to me are more equivalent to engineering. Good pay, status, responsibility, respect, etc.
So first 5-10 years like trade without the good money, the remaining years,could be like a profession, hopefully with good money. Unless you fall off the train anywhere and then you start over.
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Re: Trades people VS Pilots
Oh, I'm pretty flexibile and I've been pretty surprised over my career. I've still got a seaplane rating, IFR rating, M2 endorsement, and Instructor rating all lying idle waiting for the opportunity to use them.Colonel Sanders wrote:IFP: If there is one piece of advice I could give peopleI've got much better things to spend a few grand on ... (than an ATPL)
about aviation it would be to stay flexible. You just never
know what's going to happen next. It surely will surprise
you.
I've also written 14 Transport Canada exams with 100% success rate.... so I'm pretty sure I'd have ATPL in hand pretty quickly should the need arise. Nobody is going to stick me directly into the seat of an aircraft that requires it.
But it's the what happens next that might surprise me that has me concentrating on other ventures other than an ATPL.
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Re: Trades people VS Pilots
Totally unsolicited 2 cents:
Remember that all those ratings will expire, with the exception of floats (which probably should too, but it is an endorsement...I digress.) If you have an IFR ticket in the back pocket that you will have to keep valid anyway, and assuming you meet all the time requirements for ATPL, why not spend a week of studying and $200 to write the exams around the time your IFR ride is due. Do a group 1 ride and bingo bango you have an ATPL. I mean, it's not as though it is a huge expense nor is it particularly difficult to obtain or maintain.
Remember that all those ratings will expire, with the exception of floats (which probably should too, but it is an endorsement...I digress.) If you have an IFR ticket in the back pocket that you will have to keep valid anyway, and assuming you meet all the time requirements for ATPL, why not spend a week of studying and $200 to write the exams around the time your IFR ride is due. Do a group 1 ride and bingo bango you have an ATPL. I mean, it's not as though it is a huge expense nor is it particularly difficult to obtain or maintain.
Re: Trades people VS Pilots
Found this interesting definition of a Professional in a CF publication (Duty with Honour) today:
Do Pilots really meet this definition? I don't think so, not in the same way Dr's, engineers etc. do......A profession is an exclusive group of people who
possess and apply a systematically acquired body
of knowledge derived from extensive research,
education, training and experience. Members of a
profession have a special responsibility to fulfill
their function competently and objectively for the
benefit of society. Professionals are governed by a
code of ethics that establishes standards of conduct
while defining and regulating their work. This code
of ethics is enforced by the members themselves and
contains values that are widely accepted as legitimate
by society at large.
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Re: Trades people VS Pilots
Please explain how pilots do not meet that definition.
I read it and check all the boxes. Maybe not the self governing part, but to a certain extent...
I read it and check all the boxes. Maybe not the self governing part, but to a certain extent...
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Re: Trades people VS Pilots
We do. Airmanship, Meteorology, Air Regs, Navigation.A profession is an exclusive group of people who
possess and apply a systematically acquired body
of knowledge
From the early pioneers who figured out aerodynamics and aircraft construction, weather patterns, rules to make us safe, and centuries of marine navigation that transferred over to flying plus what aviation has done to advance it......derived from extensive research,...
Ground school and written tests.education
Flight training and flight tests, as well as numerous other things like servicing and fueling, etc.training
150NM cross country. 300 NM cross country. Plus the CPL being a license to learn.and experience.
Most flying involves being responsible for those on board and below the aircraftMembers of a
profession have a special responsibility to fulfill
their function competently and objectively for the
benefit of society.
The Aeronautics Act, the CARs, the AIM, ASLs, standard practices and norms.Professionals are governed by a
code of ethics that establishes standards of conduct
while defining and regulating their work.
And indeed they are. Nobody advocates running out of fuel. Nobody advocates proceeding into inclement weather that will bring the aircraft to grief. Nobody advocates breaking the law. Nobody advocates getting lost.This code
of ethics is enforced by the members themselves and
contains values that are widely accepted as legitimate
by society at large.
Are pilots perfect? No. But neither are Doctors or Engineers. Look at the number of deaths related to malpractice or poor engineering. How many doctors or engineers are hung out to dry like the Keystone Kid for willful negligence? None that I know of.
Doctors and Engineers certainly have a larger scope of knowledge and responsibility, but it scales down to what a pilot does.
To me, a professional is someone who uses a skill set for hire or reward. Wedding photographers and hookers are professionals. Regulation is not necessarily necessary.
Re: Trades people VS Pilots
Don't take a "CF publication" definition too seriously. It is as good as anyone else's.
Are pilots a profession? Absolutely. Are they professional? That's a different question, and many are some aren't. Just as anywhere else.
Are the requirements for pilot qualifications as stringent as for other professions? More difficult than some, a lot less then others.
Particularly the quality of training, depth of theoretical training and the written exams leaves a lot to be desired. I guess I can say I can compare since I have exposure to at least three different fields (science, engineering and now aviation). It is somewhat mitigated by the Darwin's law and experience pilots have to gain while climbing the ladder. But it is not done via quality training, strong education and associated testing. And this is why we typically want to see a few thousand hours PIC at the left seat of an airliner. Even though the job can be done by a 25-year old with 200 hours. The industry has not found a way to have it done sufficiently safely in any other way.
Are pilots a profession? Absolutely. Are they professional? That's a different question, and many are some aren't. Just as anywhere else.
Are the requirements for pilot qualifications as stringent as for other professions? More difficult than some, a lot less then others.
Particularly the quality of training, depth of theoretical training and the written exams leaves a lot to be desired. I guess I can say I can compare since I have exposure to at least three different fields (science, engineering and now aviation). It is somewhat mitigated by the Darwin's law and experience pilots have to gain while climbing the ladder. But it is not done via quality training, strong education and associated testing. And this is why we typically want to see a few thousand hours PIC at the left seat of an airliner. Even though the job can be done by a 25-year old with 200 hours. The industry has not found a way to have it done sufficiently safely in any other way.
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Re: Trades people VS Pilots
Leave the twenty-five year olds with 200 hours out of this. They can barely do the jobs they have now, let alone the one you're talking about. Although I do agree with you.
Re: Trades people VS Pilots

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Re: Trades people VS Pilots
The Aeronautics Act, the CARs, the AIM, ASLs, standard practices and norms.Professionals are governed by a
code of ethics that establishes standards of conduct
while defining and regulating their work.
Right with you up until this part pie man. We don't really have a membership that enforces ethics. We have TC and SMS that enforce minimum safety standards only. Ethics and values are rare in our field and this is most unfortunate.This code
of ethics is enforced by the members themselves and
contains values that are widely accepted as legitimate
by society at large.
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Re: Trades people VS Pilots
Pilots have to start looking at the industry itself. Aviation is not banking, nor engineering. Airlines go bankrupt all the time, banks do not. At the heart of the problem is the lack of excess money in the business. Sure, the CEO of a major airline makes a great compensation, but so what, even if they took all that money and distributed it to the pilots, the average wage will barely change. Aviation has a very low profit margin, and second, nearly anyone can get a CPL/IFR/ME education and start looking for an entry level job. To become a doctor, first, good luck even winning the lotto making it into med school, and second, you might be looking at 9 years of education AFTER that point. A medical school might get 2000 qualified applicants (straight A's in a 4 year science degree), and 100 make it in. If 2000 people go for a CPL/ME/IFR, I would bet 1000+ of those, given the funds to finish, will finish and all be competing for the same few jobs. Engineers... same deal. A four year Engineering degree, if you get into the college, is not a cake walk, especially with six courses per semester that all might be math. The majority of University students struggle to get a B in first year entry level Calculus, nevermind Engineering level with proofs. The graduation stats are horrible. I remember in first year when they tell you only 33% of this class will make it to the fourth year. Then it's another two years of working to get your P.Eng. Then, you end up in high profit industries like Energy where there is money to pay good wages. If we want pilots to be more of a "professional" profession right off the start, then we need to make CPL training a 4 year program where even getting into first year is a challenge.
Finally, supply and demand does matter in regards to pay. Experienced captains are not easy to find, and the wages for these jobs, at least to me, are not bad at all. If you want a high wage right off the bat, then aviation probably is not the career for you given the competition for pilot jobs in the first ~5 years of the career, maybe more. Get into an field that weeds people out right from the start. I'm looking at this from a different angle I think. I'm 35, middle aged looking for a career change and wanting to pursue a dream, not be 60 saying I should have tried it. I'm not doing it for money. I'm willing to put in the years of sacrfice, gain experience, wake up and want to go to work and get paid fairly for it. Thats the goal at least.
Finally, supply and demand does matter in regards to pay. Experienced captains are not easy to find, and the wages for these jobs, at least to me, are not bad at all. If you want a high wage right off the bat, then aviation probably is not the career for you given the competition for pilot jobs in the first ~5 years of the career, maybe more. Get into an field that weeds people out right from the start. I'm looking at this from a different angle I think. I'm 35, middle aged looking for a career change and wanting to pursue a dream, not be 60 saying I should have tried it. I'm not doing it for money. I'm willing to put in the years of sacrfice, gain experience, wake up and want to go to work and get paid fairly for it. Thats the goal at least.
Last edited by dazednconfused on Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Trades people VS Pilots
I guess I can count myself lucky then, because I've always worked for operators who have gone above the minimum standards for safety. I have never been criticized for scrubbing a trip due to weather. I've never had to fly an aircraft that I felt was unsafe. I've been told (and paid) to take time off due to sickness and fatigue.co-joe wrote:Right with you up until this part pie man. We don't really have a membership that enforces ethics. We have TC and SMS that enforce minimum safety standards only. Ethics and values are rare in our field and this is most unfortunate.This code
of ethics is enforced by the members themselves and
contains values that are widely accepted as legitimate
by society at large.
Looking at how people and the industry in general dog pile on those who demonstrate poor airmanship makes me think we have a certain amount of ethics. It doesn't take much for a person or a company to become persona non grata in our tight community.
Also, I've been personally affected by poor practices, corruption, and the passing of responsibly by Doctors in the Medical field, so don't think for a second that they are any better than somebody working to a minimum standard. They are just better funded for malpractice suits.
Re: Trades people VS Pilots
aviation is the only industry in the world where people will work for nothing. i dont know why but i think it may be ego driven and of course there are the ones that the parents have deep pockets . there is a positive side for all you flyers it takes ten years to be where you want to be. any trade or profession
Re: Trades people VS Pilots
Far from it. This is common to many industries, where to get started you work for either nothing or next to nothing. With a goal or hope to get ahead.rolly117 wrote:aviation is the only industry in the world where people will work for nothing