Sky Regional Pilot Contract

[RFN]

Nicely nicely put Bede!!!!

We at Jazz could use you back in ALPA pretty badly.

[Mig29]

Bede,

I don't think I have anything more to say or add to your last post

But I realized at the end of your text that we may have a small misunderstanding as to what you describe the merit based system and what I understood it initially. I'm all for one seniority number that is transferable between companies. I'm also in favor that guys with experience should not go to the bottom of the new company because their old airline decided to call it quits in the middle of the March break.....and as much as this college of pilots may seem to be light years ahead, I would like it to actually one day become a reality.

What I wouldn't want to see is a merit system that rewards ass kissing or trying to make your colleague look like a fool so you can take his upgrade. Or punishing a guy just because he does a very good job but say is not interested in overtime work because he prefers family time more then money. A guy who gets the flight down safely but is not going to rush it so that he makes sked when it will mean cutting a corner to get it done. Just few examples, but you get the point. I'm pretty sure we're on the same Page but I must have misunderstood what you really meant. We as pilots are known to be very competitive and even willing to back stab a college just to get that job, so letting a company decided who goes ahead on the roster could turn pretty ugly in a heart beat.

[GRK]

Bedecked et al,
Nice sunshiny thinking, but no way Jose...seniority rewards those who came first. While experience is a value to any company, I would have a great deal to say if someone dropped in above my hard earned position just because he or she was older and had more time in the logbook. End of story...period...that kind of thinking has had people hiring lawyers and suing for positions on a list. A merge or failure is a different kettle of fish, and having been part of both during my career, my experience is that it's never going to satisfy everyone when a list gets merged, but it's a negotiated deal. What you guys are advocating is based on a no merge, simple hire program that slots people ahead of tenured employees. It's a baaaaaaadd idea.

[Takeoff OK]

GRK is spot on.

Furthermore; while I think the idea of the college of pilots is a good one and hope it gains the recognition of professionalism that the college of physicians and others merit (I doubt it), there is no way in hell you are going to circumvent the seniority systems of the industry as a whole. They've been talking about "one seniority list" in the States for years now -- which, by the way, is where this idea came from. It is NOT going to happen. Let it go.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming of how shitty the Sky Regional contract is...

[teacher]

Seniority has no place in a skilled workforce. It rewards unskilled labour who do the same job as everyone else. There can be compromises like for vacation and maybe some scheduling but look around. Any respectable profession doesn't abide by this archaic and backwards thinking. Chaining us to companies and preventing freedom of movement is probably the number one reason our WACON has been going the wrong way for decades.

Imagine that if the company didn’t pay up you could just up and leave? Maybe to another start up, who cares, your WACON would not be overly hit.

There has to be a middle ground at the very least. Company based seniority is the millstone around our necks preventing us from truly being professionals and not just another organized labour group.

[chopsticks]

Bedecked et al,
While experience is a value to any company, I would have a great deal to say if someone dropped in above my hard earned position just because he or she was older and had more time in the logbook. End of story...period...

So if somebody is hired with a lot more experience than you, what about their hard earned position? Seniority is important, but only to a point. It's caused more problems than it has solved in our industry, and as has been mentioned above, other "professions" will value experience, and unfortunately pilots are not "professionals". I think the best solution is a hybrid system, where company seniority counts for a lot, but also where if somebody who is clearly more qualified for an upgrade for instance, they should get a shot first. Time at the company, time on type, and relevant time (i.e. PIC time, 705 time, etc) should all be considered when upgrades come up, and not simply somebody's seniority number.

[GRK]

Obviously a company shouldn't simply and blindly allow an upgrade ( in or out of seniority) without some sort of system in place that asseses a candidate. After all, not all experience is the same. But in the cold light of day a seniority number is your career from start to finish. As you can tell, I won't move off of the point. Skilled work force or professional college? If a company I work for fails, I should be able to join your company ahead of you because I've been flying longer and on heavy jets? Well hell! Sign me up! I'll take your job anytime! Especially if it gets me better vacation, better benefits, higher pay, you know...all those things you worked hard to get. Get my point? I would also be interested in just how a seniority list drags peoples careers down. Companies do that. A list is supposed to provide stability and protections from the very company that is trying to reach around behind you and steal your wallet!

[mbav8r]

I believe the Steelworkers of Manitoba would be a prime example of how it could and possibly should work.
If a company in Manitoba needs steelworkers, they go to the union and say we need x amount of workers, they assign the work to
those on a list who are not currently employed or are looking to switch companies, in order of seniority. These companies have to pay a minimum amount set by the union.
I know a guy who owns a company, who said through the winter his guys will rotate through a week off without pay to avoid layoffs because the layoff means going back to the shop and waiting to be assigned. Problem is, this company pays and treats guys better than others and going back to the list could mean someone else senior to you getting assigned to that company, so a week or two without pay throughout the winter is better.
Imagine that, a company paying better than others even though they don't need to. There is no race to the bottom, some pay better to keep guys around. I asked, what if you get a guy that doesn't work out and he said no problem you don't have to take him. I imagine you have to document it, can't just be a I don't like him situation.

GRK wrote;
I would also be interested in just how a seniority list drags peoples careers down.

GRK, I work at Jazz and have been there for about 6 years, I get a good schedule and have had the last 3 Christmas' off. I've considered applying elsewhere but cannot stomach starting over at the bottom of a list, on year 1 pay, which companies happily do their part in lowering the bar. So, I'm stuck where I am and come 2020 when the CPA expires, I can only hope the company is still around because if it's not, my 25 years of flying experience of which 13 will be at Jazz, will get me a nice new BOTL position with a significant paycut.
Ask the pilots who chose C3 or even the ones who left Jazz with years of seniority to go to Air Transat and are now on layoff,how they feel about their options. A guy who left Jazz with 5 years and then wants to come back, would be BOTL. ]
The only solution is a Nationwide list and minimum pay comensurate with years/hours of experience.

[Diadem]

I honestly can't decide which system seems better, as it seems to be entirely dependent on one's perspective; from the view of the employee already in the company, obviously seniority is better, but for someone who's been recently hired obviously merit is better. For example:

I work at Jazz and have been there for about 6 years, I get a good schedule and have had the last 3 Christmas' off.

Would you be singing the same tune if a bunch of AC captains parachuted in above you and bumped you down the list, so you no longer get Christmas off? No sarcasm is intended, I'm genuinely curious to know how a different attitude would affect one's view of this situation.

[Takeoff OK]

Obviously a single list would have many benefits in the long run, with quite a bit of pain in the short. But it is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

You're talking about getting all pilots, all unions, and all companies to play ball. Furthermore, you're talking about the government allowing labour to dictate wages to carriers. Christ! The government won't even allow AC guys to THINK of striking, and you think they're going to aid in diminishing corporate power? Not a chance.

Like I said; this has been discussed for years and years south of the border. It's a pipe dream.

[Mig29]

The only solution is a Nationwide list and minimum pay comensurate with years/hours of experience.

It's a great idea, now how do we incorporate it in our industry??

I mean, I wish there is a magic pay grade for all types, ranks and experience levels, but how do we get it to work.

We can't even be united enough to prevent the formation of outfits who deliberately erode this industry, but we can unite everyone under one big umbrella?

[Livin'Something]

It seems there are pros and cons to either system. And I'm sure it has a lot to do with personal experiences and where you are at now in your career.

I don't know, but after reading the TOE for Sky regional it seems to me like they are trying to incorporate a bit of both. It seems they are recognizing the experience you bring to the company by a credit system, but are also recognizing years of service by date of hire and "date to upgrade".
That way once underway, if they hire a high time captain, he won't over step a guy who has three years in and is ready to upgrade. Maybe I'm reading it wrong but it seems like a pretty fair system..

regards,

[bigskyjoc]

This thread WAS about Skyregional unleashing the worst terms of employment for a jet job in perhaps Canadian history. Lets not turn it into The College of babbling Pilots.

[Takeoff OK]

It seems there are pros and cons to either system. And I'm sure it has a lot to do with personal experiences and where you are at now in your career.

I don't know, but after reading the TOE for Sky regional it seems to me like they are trying to incorporate a bit of both. It seems they are recognizing the experience you bring to the company by a credit system, but are also recognizing years of service by date of hire and "date to upgrade".
That way once underway, if they hire a high time captain, he won't over step a guy who has three years in and is ready to upgrade. Maybe I'm reading it wrong but it seems like a pretty fair system..

regards,

You are giving SR management way too much credit. Make no mistake; the language of the contract is there to give management as much room as possible to intimidate and subdue the pilot group as a whole. Nothing else. They know they have at least five golden years ahead of them before a union-negotiated contract could even possibly be signed.

[ikarus]

It seems there are pros and cons to either system. And I'm sure it has a lot to do with personal experiences and where you are at now in your career.

I don't know, but after reading the TOE for Sky regional it seems to me like they are trying to incorporate a bit of both. It seems they are recognizing the experience you bring to the company by a credit system, but are also recognizing years of service by date of hire and "date to upgrade".
That way once underway, if they hire a high time captain, he won't over step a guy who has three years in and is ready to upgrade. Maybe I'm reading it wrong but it seems like a pretty fair system..

regards,

I admire your optimism my friend. Honestly, not being sarcastic...

But do you really believe that a company that pays THAT LOW is actually sensitive enough to care about seniority and fair play inside their operation???

[FICU]

That way once underway, if they hire a high time captain, he won't over step a guy who has three years in and is ready to upgrade.

This system is designed to allow highly experienced new hires, ie... newly retired AC drivers, to join up and step over the upgradable F/O who has been there 3 years.

[Inverted2]

It mentions you must live within 120km of your base. Perfect: Pay your pilots the lowest wages in the industry and then have them to live nearby or in the most expensive areas of the country. Nice!

They will be filling their left seats with greedy AC pensioners and the right seats with low timers who will do what ever it takes to fly a big shiny jet......... What a shame this industry is becoming.

[CanadianEh]

Types shouldn't really matter when looking at pilot compensation. I would propose a status pay type of system is we used a single list in a college. There would be different tiers of experience and if a company wants a pilot in a certain tier of experience the company will pay that price. There could also be different rates depending on whether or not its 702,3,4,5 and F/O vs. Capt. This would at least keep a floor on pilot compensation so that a 10,000 hour pilot wouldn't have to go start from $35k since he/she deserves a higher wage commensurate with his/her experience. Just a thought.

[haironfire]

Sky Regional is an absolute joke destroying our industry in Canada and should be boycotted! Anyone who goes to this abortion of an airline is just contributing to the destruction. Piss poor!

[777LR]

damn! They are going to take away all my LGA layovers ....
How am I going to see my second family in Astoria now???

[ikarus]

damn! They are going to take away all my LGA layovers ....
How am I going to see my second family in Astoria now???

I wish that is the only thing they are going to take away from AC....but...

[Livin'Something]

[quote="ikarus"]
I admire your optimism my friend. Honestly, not being sarcastic...

But do you really believe that a company that pays THAT LOW is actually sensitive enough to care about seniority and fair play inside their operation???


You could very well be right. They are definetly giving themselves the flexibility to be able to play the way they want within "their" rules! And that's the problem with a lot of start-ups, without a contract they can pretty much do as they please. I guess you have to be optimistic, and believe they'll do the right thing. This has happened in the past and the outcome hasn't been too bad eg: Westjet ( I remember countless forums about how little they pay, they are bringing down the industry and a few other nasty names I won't repeat!) Jazz (pretty much the same thing). Now Westjet is "the place to be". I'm not saying this is a good thing or that the pay is in anyway "good" but this seems to be the way of the future for our industry.

I suppose optimism is the only thing that keeps me sane!!

regards,

Stay safe and enjoy the Holidays!

[North Shore]

Not sure I'm getting this?!

IF a guy/gal isn't happy with what Sky is offering, then feel free to not apply, and stay at your current job. Not enough bums to fill the front seats, and they'll have to offer more - isn't that how capitalism works?

[AirMail]

Not sure I'm getting this?!

IF a guy/gal isn't happy with what Sky is offering, then feel free to not apply, and stay at your current job. Not enough bums to fill the front seats, and they'll have to offer more - isn't that how capitalism works?

you'd think so, but then they'd pull a Sunwing and hire foreign pilots while stating that there are no Canadians willing to whore themselves out.

[trey kule]

you'd think so, but then they'd pull a Sunwing and hire foreign pilots while stating that there are no Canadians willing to whore themselves out

There are a few differences here...Sunwing hired TEMPORARY SEASONAL pilots....
Expat pilots, particularly Captains, are not going to come here, even if they could in this instance for these wages I dont think...It really is a question of whether or not they can find enough pilots to work at these wages. I expect they will have more than enough applicants...Canadian pilots whine about the low wages, but that is pretty much all they do. When push comes to shove they will justify taking the job because "there are 50 guys standing in line behind them who will take it"
The problem is not with foreign pilots. It is with Canadian pilots who are willing to work for starvation wages...It is Canadian pilots that are driving the wages down in Canada.
We will see if they have to change their pay scale or if the whiners will do nothing but complain and take the job.
The rationale you are using is typical of someone who is willing to be a crack whore for the airlines..It just is not so. We all want the big brother government, union, college to protect us from ourselves..
Maybe time to look in the mirror and ask if you are part of the problem.

As an aside. A nice young fellow a few years ago was offered a position with a Canadian carrier..They told him that he would be sitting in the right seat for at least 5 years. Told him about the low wages...
He told me that he took the position because he was sure that with the looming pilot shortage and the inevitable expansion, the upgrade would be sooner and the wages would go up....Five years ago..He is still sitting right seat at low wages...He is pissed off at the company..Not sure why..They were totally upfront about it all.

I expect this will be the same..Pilots will somehow rationalize their decision to work for low wages for some career goal they perceive whether or not it is based in reality..Pilots wages in Canada folks, are going down, not up...at least not in the short term.. We are already seeing a situation where some of the bigger charter outfits with nice equipment are paying better than the mainlines and are retaining some good pilots.. It will eventually affect the bigger carriers only if they dont have a constant stream of pilots willing to work for these wages..What do you think the chances of that are?

There is all sorts of chatter about pilot solidarity.. A college of pilots...But there is definitely a lack of pride when it comes down to being offered a job at low wages...