Slipping 172 with full flaps

[Colonel Sanders]

Where are you flying into that you cannot get in with a full flap approach without slipping?

Heh. 99% of the time, power off and 40 degrees of flaps
will do it just fine in a 172.

If you need power off, 40 degrees of flaps and sideslip, it's
because you have severely misjudged the approach. The
prudent choice would be to go around.

PS Misjudging the approach this badly generally occurs during
forced approach training. Never having flown a power-off
approach before, pilots think that the aircraft is incapable of
gliding and fly a ridiculously tight circuit, generally resulting
in the aircraft being 500 AGL over the threshold, requiring
a vertical descent.

PPS Even CPL candidates struggle mightily with a power-off
approach. The power-off 180 approach is a frequently failed
item. I know, I know, it's dangerous, unsafe, illegal and probably
invalidates your insurance to teach power-off approaches

[trey kule]

Let me see if I understand this correctly CS..

We have instructors out there that are not teaching power off approaches, yet at the same time are teaching to slip with full flaps...?
When I learned to fly ALL approaches were done power off until you could put it on the numbers (yeah yeah,,all unsafe, but it is the way it was done) every time..
I understood the practice was stopped a few years later because in very cold weather some students found themselves a bit low and the engine did not responde to power with the result the planes landed about 50 feet short of a 10000 foot runway..I assumed that in warm weather it was still being practiced..
But actually when I think about it...You dont do power off approaches in a heavy, and , as one poster put it,, it is fun to do slips with full flaps. Besides,, it takes just a little bit of skill to learn to pull the power in the downwind and then land without adding power again.. Do we really want to stress out new students by expecting them to learn this...or embarass instructors who cant do it either.

To the OP..If it is not prohibited you can do them..If you have to do them you have a real problem with your approaches. something to think about.

[Colonel Sanders]

it takes just a little bit of skill to learn to pull the power in the downwind and then land without adding power again

It's ridiculously easy, as a matter of fact. All you
have to do is a rate one turn. 180 degrees will
take one minute. During that one minute, you
will have lost 700 to 800 fpm with the power off,
setting you up nicely for a slightly high final
allowing you to sideslip, or lower flaps, or open up
the approach slightly, or compensate for a bit of
wind down the runway.

Pardon me, I have to go put some moose in my hair.

[iflyforpie]

Moose...?

There is an easy way to simulate power off approaches in a 172 with partial power.... use flaps. 40 flap and 1500 RPM will produce about the same descent angle as power off clean. Of course, it doesn't work very well with Township sized circuits and PAPI cripples.

As for slipping with flaps... never needed to. If you have full flaps and a proper airspeed, the 172 sinks like a rock. It is those who start diving at 70 knots to get low and wonder why the plane won't go down as it eats up track miles.

[Shiny Side Up]

It's ridiculously easy, as a matter of fact. All you
have to do is a rate one turn. 180 degrees will
take one minute. During that one minute, you
will have lost 700 to 800 fpm with the power off,
setting you up nicely for a slightly high final
allowing you to sideslip, or lower flaps, or open up
the approach slightly, or compensate for a bit of
wind down the runway.

Its made even easier if one has the ability to slip with the full flaps, since you can horribly misjudge your approach and still get it down where you want. I believe its you who says the thing Cessnas do best is fall out of the sky. A common error misjudging this approach is screwing up which way the wind is blowing while you start the approach (a distressing amount of pilots out there have really poor wind sense, and those striped sock things confuse the hell out of them) and since they were taught a formulaic means of conducting the exercise don't know what to do if they have a bit of a game change. OF course I'm getting ahead of myself because I've never seen a pilot with good wind sense and poor ability to slip the airplane.

But then again, there's a large chunk of the pilot population who've been educated about how bad slips are, so its something that will slowly disappear from the standard pilot skillset.

[DanWEC]

During a bit of a windy day, on my CPL ride, I demonstrated a forward slip with power off and full flaps in a 172M during the forced approach because I was just a little bit high. It worked out perfectly, and no mention or issue whatsoever from the PE.
I had always been taught that it was just fine- just maintain your descent attitude since your indicated airspeed will likely be off due to position error.
If you have to use a forward slip as a last resort to loose altitude, you would hopefully have full flaps down anyways, when and why would you be doing a forward slip with 10*??
But as the placard says- "avoid" it, just in case- it's certainly not prohib.

[jubjub]

Because this is exactly the reason (the bold part) that I dont think it necessary to teach enhanced flying to PPL students..."it is fun".....so lets subject our pax to the the experience..

Where are you flying into that you cannot get in with a full flap approach without slipping? The problem with teaching some young idiots the outside of the envelope is they are not smart enough to realize it is the outside of the envelope..
And worse, want to show off to their poor trusting pax....good job!

I think you took what I said entirely out of context...At no point did put my passenger at risk and I would love to hear your argument otherwise. The time my pax "freaked" out wasn't during a slip....Just a normal short field approach into Orillia. He noticed the flaps had some play and were buffeting. Anyway, in this case I ended up doing a quick slip to make sure I was down right at the threshold. Dangerous? I guess I am an idiot. When I take my dear mother up I keep things nice and slow/shallow. On the other hand, when I take my friend who did the cadet glider thing up for a flight, not as much. Time and place, I know its a really hard concept for people my age but I think I have done a good job grasping it.

A side slip with flaps isn't exactly a difficult maneuver. Am I missing something? Am I being cocky? I'm not an amazing pilot but its a 172. Whats wrong with throwing it around a bit if you are well within your comfort and skill envelope? The 172M I was flying has no prohibitions against doing so. How am I outside of the envelope?

Have I ever personally seen a field that would require a slip with 40 flaps outside of a poor approach or just wanting to change things up...nope. I am 100% guilty of using it to fix crappy approaches, I'm a student still so I wont apologize for it. As time went on I didn't have to rely on the dreaded death slip anymore. Now its just another tool.

If you offer slipping a 172 with flaps as advanced ppl training...good job!

Either way, I stand by my previous post.

[Instructor_Mike]

As for slipping with flaps... never needed to. If you have full flaps and a proper airspeed, the 172 sinks like a rock...

Not after the P model or if you have the extra 100 pound STC. Then you only have 30 degrees I miss the 40 degree N models.

[the_cr]

My opinion on this argument is that Cessna left vague a safety consideration that refers to a specific situation and I believe we're arguing 2 totally different situations; forward slips for altitude loss and side slips for crosswind correction.

In a forward slip, to lose as much altitude as possible as quick as possible, full flaps will get you there safely (with respect to a safe airspeed). As long as you maintain enough airflow the aircraft will descend quickly in a controlled manner with some buffet. You won't stall the tail or have sudden lost of tail control or any such event.

A side slip for crosswind correction is a somewhat different maneuver. In order to maintain as much tail authority as possible full flaps are not recommended. It is important to note that in ab initio flight training the chances of encountering a crosswind strong enough to require the extra tail authority is unlikely, however if you want to make your life a little easier, just land with a little less flaps as necessary.

[Daveee]

I personally would take the student flying to the practice area, and perform slips with 20˚, 30˚, and 40˚; at a descent altitude so they can get the image of the procedure in their head prior to attempt it. I have done slips with 40˚ and I haven't noticed any particular situation which I believe can jeopardize with safety. Now a factor will be "Do you really want to perform a 40˚ slip in strong crosswind?"

Go try them first at a safe altitude in P.A., if you feel comfy about it, give it a try in a landing.

[trey kule]

I'm a student still

That is a bit confusing..How are you managing to take people flying with you if you hold a student pilot permit? Maybe better not to post the answer on here.

Anyway, in the vain and forlorn hope that some of you new young pilots will actually learn from the experience of others, let me share this with you..

1. You are going learn to do lots of things in an airplane that you should not be doing as a normal part of your flying, and particularily when you have pax on board. And I dont care if the pax is the trophy winning cadet from last year...that is a particularily bad situation that results in the 'hey watch this' or 'lets try this'..Feeling bad after bending some metal, or worse does not cut it..What is going to be your excuse after do something that was to be avoided if you bend some metal? Oh, right, that wont happen to you becuase you are super pilots

2. There is a reason a munufacturer puts notes in the POH like avoid it.. What is it you dont understand about that? Doing them because you can is not the mark of a super pilot..It is the mark of an immature kid who does not understand the possible consequences of his actions..He has not learned the difference between what he can do and should do.. If you really feel you need to practice full flap slips...do it solo...quit trying to show off...and that is exactly what you are doing when you have a pax on board. You pax might say..'yeah lets do it' but be scared stiff inside. particularily with a 200 hour wonder at the controls..Few pax you will fly with share the love of flight..They trust you to act in a responsable and professional way..And doing things that the POH says to avoid is not one of them.

3.But, it was to salvage an approach!! Here is the best bit of advice you are going to get, and its absolutely free. It may just keep you from the ranks of the feeling bad group if you follow it..
If you approach is not going well....dont try to salvage it,,,initiate a go around..
There are more accidents from pilots trying to salvage a bad approach then you can imagine.

4.The basic point here is this is not a normal procedure (or a prohibited one). All of you post on here how you teach it, and do it at altitude etc, and yet some of you post that you have to use it to salvage a bad approach..Do you see the problem? You are spending time learning how to salvage a bad approach because what...you did not spend the time or effort learning to fly a proper approach and land properly...Learn the basics..Fly the basics perfectly, and then, if you want, go SOLO and practice the extra ciricular stuff..Not the other way around.

5. If you have to use this technique to get a 172 into a stip you are not a good pilot..No exceptions.
So dont give me any excuses..Stop doing it ..And learn to do approaches and landings well using normal techniques...that is the mark of a professional..You are only fooling yourselves if you think different.

Here is your chance to make a change in your attitude and the way you fly so you dont have to become the subject of one of the accident threads that others supposedly learn from.

My rant for the day.

[photofly]

I take it you don't approve of aileron rolls in a C172, either?

[Shiny Side Up]

I'm a student still

That is a bit confusing..

Not really if you read his post and its context. Stow the outrage for a minute. Slow down, read.

3.But, it was to salvage an approach!! Here is the best bit of advice you are going to get, and its absolutely free. It may just keep you from the ranks of the feeling bad group if you follow it..
If you approach is not going well....dont try to salvage it,,,initiate a go around..
There are more accidents from pilots trying to salvage a bad approach then you can imagine.

He wasn't talking about standard landing approaches. Rather he was talking about the forced approach exercise. Read carefully again, here I'll help you and fix a bit of punctuation to help.

Have I ever personally seen a field that would require a slip with 40 flaps outside of a poor approach or just wanting to change things up? Nope. I am 100% guilty of using it to fix crappy approaches, I'm a student still so I wont apologize for it. As time went on I didn't have to rely on the dreaded death slip anymore. Now its just another tool.

This is of course precisely where slipping comes in handy. You're faced with a stopped prop, and you got to modulate your descent quick. Incidentally its possible to be a student and a license holder. I'm even a student sometimes, you probably on occasion are too. Think hard before the next rant spills out, maybe switch to decaf.

The slip is just another tool to use, like any good mechanic knows, you can't have too many tools. Sometimes its the right one for the job.

[iflyforpie]

I've seen pilots fail a forced approach because they were too high and refused to side slip the aircraft because of the dreaded 'slipping with flaps' conundrum. I've even seen them retract the flaps so they could slip.... not the best thing to do close to the ground, even on a regular approach.

You've only got one shot, so you make your field no matter what. It is important that student pilots know the nuances of their aircraft; what is dangerous vs what is simply uncomfortable or unpolished.

[trey kule]

First of all, I am not switching to decaf...no sir...Its like drinking lite beer or beer with a piece of fruit in it...sissy stuff.

My rant was not so much about slipping as about the attitude of those that learn a technique and then want to apply it when not appropriate...I am just fed up with all this enhanced training when pilots cannot master the basics and then the excuses they use to justify doing these type of things.
And I did take a full 9seconds to reread the whole thread with enough time left over to post on my facebook and send a twitter about how it made me feel.

So back to post-rage...
He posted he was 'still' a student..Pretty sure I read that correctly and in the proper context.
He stated he is using this technique to fix up crappy approaches..I did not see anything mentioned that it only referred to crappy forced approaches...

At no point did put my passenger at risk and I would love to hear your argument otherwise. The time my pax "freaked" out wasn't during a slip....Just a normal short field approach into Orillia

Why would someone be taking someone for a ride and doing a simulated forced approach?
Now to quote CS.....

If you need power off, 40 degrees of flaps and sideslip, it's
because you have severely misjudged the approach. The
prudent choice would be to go around.

The fact is you guys just dont get it..If pax dont freak out then all is OK!!!!!
And if you go to far , and they do freak out....well, I guess if you feel bad about it then that is OK too.

Slappy , however did refer to the forced approach

I also always taught my students that while it was not recommended, you certainly could do it in a pinch (ie. Screwed up a forced approach or spot landing and you have no other options)

And I do not think the other poster referring to Oriliia was doing a forced approach.. And , quite frankly if you are so high on a 'spot landing' a go around is usually a much better idea.

There is all this talk about how to land a plane properly.. And about learning from the experience of others.. And from what I have seen over the decades, two things pop to mind..(just a second, I have to twitter that).........
OK, back now.
1. It seems that when to many young and inexperienced pilots learn something that is not a normal procedure they want to suddenly treat it as normal..
2. The new , and again, typically young want to impress their pax with their awesome flight skills, so they ask..."you ok with this'. The pax with eyes the size of dinner plates says,,"oh yeah" and then our super aviator says ..well the pax did not mind....
3. When it comes to landing the plane, the first, and important step is a nice stabalized approach.. The correct height considering terrain, wind, strip length, and the ASI looking like it is frozen at the correct speed..Those conditions dont exist..overshoot, Not try some technique that is a bit out of the normal.. Over the years I have seen planes overrun strips, planes with broken nose gear, ground looped....and with few exceptions everyone of the pilots had a rationalization. And unlike CS, I dont think because they could walk away it was a 'good job'
A forced approach, by its very nature is different, but lets not mix up what we are talking about here'

Lastly , it is not rage, but in the gentle touchie feelie world of today, if you are not extreme in your comments , you will get the same rationalizations, and excuses for doing something like this..In short, it is sometimes the only way to get peoples attention so they cannot rationalize their way out of it.

I know many of us old guys get flamed for ranting, but it seems to me that when I read all the rationalizations for using this technique the message is not getting through...
Other than a forced approach or during training solo or dual., it is either really poor pilot technique or just showing off.. And I will stick to that opinion unless someone can convince me differently.

I hate blowing my own horn, but I have flown planes in and out of places that I do not expect 90% of ppl pilots or their instructors could , and I have yet to find a need to use this technique to lose altitude.
And I base the claim on the fact I have had to teach new CPLs this technique...Lots of attitude, but little skill for the most part.

Anyway,,, to those that disagree, I hope I will not read about you on the accident forum.

Now....my low caffeine light is blinking so I will leave it to the experts to disagree.

[trey kule]

I take it you don't approve of aileron rolls in a C172, either?

I am not sure what that has to do with the topic at hand..but to answer your question, I have done some unapproved and even prohibted things in airplanes..I was the ace of the base when I was 22.
I was lucky....read that word again...lucky...I like to think I learned from those experiences, and can share the little scrap of wisdom with others so they can have a safe and successful career without relying on so much luck..
Specifically, to answer your question..Are aileron rolls approved in a 172 (being a long time since I was in one)? If they are not approved then the short answer it no. If they are approved, then yes.
And not with some poor unsuspecting, trusting sod in the right seat . And if they are not approved, I would not be to happy knowing the last person that flew the plane before me was doing them...I have seen some wrinkled wings on a 150 from pilots that were looping it and just did not really know what they were doing..

[jubjub]

That is a bit confusing

As SSU said, slow down and re-read...I clearly stated I have my PPL and am working on my CPL. ie- STUDENT!

I'll respond to your points one by one to keep things from getting too convoluted.

1- Agree with you 100%. I don't resign to the "hey watch this" attitude your accusing me of... I know enough to get myself into trouble and that's about it. I know that, accept that and embrace that as motivation to continue to learn and improve my abilities.

2-

There is a reason a manufacturer puts notes in the POH like avoid it.

From the Cessna POH as pointed out by CS "...Some elevator oscillation may be felt at normal approach speeds. However this does not affect control of the aircraft."

They trust you to act in a responsable and professional way

100% agree. If you need to lose 1000' in a 1/2 mile you screwed up, try again. That's not what happened in this case though.

3-

But, it was to salvage an approach

In this case it was to lose an extra few feet of altitude at the last minute, quick 2 second slip and ta-da. There were some nice pot holes I noticed last minute and wanted to avoid. Crucify me if you would like, I maintain I made the right call. Somehow we didn't die, and I had a delicious burger on the lake to reward my heroics.

If the approach is going south I have no issue going around. Fuel is built into my rental cost and I need the time. My ego will make due with the extra practice and 0.1, no biggie. Some of my flying friends don't share this mentality. I don't go flying with them.

4-

and yet some of you post that you have to use it to salvage a bad approach.

Context is an amazing thing...No sh*t using 40 flaps and a slip from 600' to fix a crappy approach is poor form. On the other hand When a student uses a slip to fix an approach while learning to land, or you lose an engine, screw up your forced approach and really need to make that dinky little field, not so much.

5-

If you have to use this technique to get a 172 into a stip you are not a good pilot..No exceptions.

In a commercial op sure, while learning/practicing...get over yourself.

If you can't or lack the confidence to slip a 172 with flaps after getting your ppl without losing your sh*t you are not a good pilot...No exceptions.

Here is your chance to make a change in your attitude and the way you fly so you dont have to become the subject of one of the accident threads that others supposedly learn from.

Think what you will. I'm a smart cookie, I'm not one for pushing my limits. I'm amazed at how well you can judge my personality and abilities from one post in which I closed with "Change up your circuits, try different things and challenge yourself".

There really was no need for the soapbox posturing given the context of my original post. I don't know why you took such offense to what I said. I've re-read it all a few times and aside from the things you decided to twist it all seems like pretty sound advice. Why are we making something as simple as slipping into a life and death safety debate. The Original question was pretty simple, the answers were logical and sound.

OP - Check your POH, go find your instructor, slip till you puke, practice it a few times solo, use it to fix your fu*k ups every once and a while as your learn and then throw it in the bag of tricks. The end.

Surely we have more pressing matters to discuss such as the importance of maintaining AoA in a climbing turn while venting hot air from ones orifices needlessly.

[trey kule]

In a commercial op sure, while learning/practicing...get over yourself.

If you can't or lack the confidence to slip a 172 with flaps after getting your ppl without losing your sh*t you are not a good pilot...No exceptions.

I can only chuckle..Now it was a slip for just a few seconds and it was because you suddenly saw potholes...I guess I did not see that in your original post which is why I seemed to have taken it of context...Rationalize, rationalize, I am curious. Where were these potholes that slipping and landing earlier helped you to avoid them?

Having the confidence to do something, and the ability to do it is one thing. Knowing when it is appropriate or necessary to do it is another. There is a big difference and quite frankly, a lot of less experienced pilots are not only unable to see the difference, but actually knowingly do something when it is not necessary or appropriate.. and then justify it by expanding on the circumstances.
And we are not talking slipping here in general or for a forced approach..We are talking of full flap slips in a 172 where the POH states they are to be avoided. Avoided is a simple word. I understand what that means. Does that mean I am not getting over myself?

Now, in order to help me get over myself, and not take you out of context, exactly how did the example you posted relate to learning or practicing? Or do you think that learning and practicing stuff is something you should be doing with a pax on board..spare me the semantics.

But you win.. I give up.. Learn everything possible you can do in a plane and then whenever you get the opportunity find a reason to deviate from normal procedures..by all means do it. As I posted previously, just keep justifying this to yourself. It will make it easier one day when you find out you are maybe not as smart as you think you are and run out of luck..

I think you may find as a commercial pilot that employers will not be impressed or understand your need to apply some extra flight skills to your landings and would rather you were able to just do them well with normal imputs.

[jubjub]

I decided to slip to get on the ground 20 feet sooner to steer around the rough patch rather then land right on top of it. It wasn't massive, but it sure looked like it at the time. This was pre "resurfacing".

Enough thread drift....

I'll try not to slip into oblivion any time soon.

[Colonel Sanders]

TK makes a very good point:

In a 172, if power off and full flap doesn't give you the
descent rate you need, and you need to resort to also
slipping to get the required -2000 FPM (!) on the VSI ...

You've screwed up the approach. Rather than pushing
a bad approach into (quite likely) a bad landing, overshoot
and go around.

Most of would not take great pride in screwing up an approach.

[PilotDAR]

Okay, I think I got all of that.

Lots of good stuff....

Practicing slips within any limitations and cautions of the aircraft, in a training environment, is a good thing, among many, to increase and maintain proficiency.

Slipping a 172 into a landing on a runway regularly should not be necessary, you are setting up your approaches wrong.

The ability to slip well is a valuable skill. Not only will it make you good at slipping, it will make you better at NOT slipping, when you should not be - in either case it is teaching you to use the pedals, instead of just ignoring them.

Being confident slipping is a good thing when something very unusual happens - maybe during a forced approach, or perhaps when trying to squeeze the floatplane over the trees, into the tiny bay on the lake where the waves are small.

Slip for practice, slip when it is really important to do so, and fly the rest of the time as though you are a really good hands and feet pilot, who does not need to prove it to anyone!

Oh yeah, and rolling 172's - not approved. I was asked during a approval test flight I was flying at a Toronto area flying club, by the senior instructor with me, if I would show him a roll. No. He was serious! No. Your completed aerobatic training will teach you that rolling a 172 is a bad idea. Do not attempt aerobatics without competent training....

[Colonel Sanders]

The ability to slip well is a valuable skill

Sure it is - but it has it's time and place. If you are flying
a tube & fabric cub or champ or t-craft with no flaps, you'd
better learn to sideslip, because after the power comes off,
that's all you have left to create drag! Specifically the
slipping turn from an (excessively high) base to final is
a really useful tool.

But in other aircraft, you're probably not going to be
slipping very much. I can't remember the last time I
sideslipped a cabin-class piston twin, or a jet. If you
ever fly something with a longer fuselage, and pax in
the back, if you don't keep the ball centered, the people
in the back are going to have a wild ride.

rolling 172's

Not sure how we got onto this subject, but that's a
really bad idea, unless you're Bob Hoover. If you're
Bob Hoover, you can easily fly loops, rolls, 1/2 cuban
eights and hammerheads in a 172. If you're not Bob
Hoover, you're going to hurt the aircraft very badly
if you try it. You might break some big pieces off it
in flight and kill yourself. Guys have done that in RV's
and I don't recommend it.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

OP - Check your POH, go find your instructor, slip till you puke, practice it a few times solo, use it to fix your fu*k ups every once and a while as your learn and then throw it in the bag of tricks. The end.

The ability to side slip an airplane is not part of a " bag of tricks " it is basic airplane handling to be used when necessary as necessary.

I decided to slip to get on the ground 20 feet sooner to steer around the rough patch rather then land right on top of it. It wasn't massive, but it sure looked like it at the time. This was pre "resurfacing".

I find the above claim to be difficult to believe.

[PilotDAR]

But in other aircraft, you're probably not going to be
slipping very much.

Indeed. That's because you'll have the skill to keep it co-ordinated as it should be, because you have practiced slipping. You know how to use the pedals to be purposefully co-ordinated, or slipped as you require, instead of the "who knows what's happening on the yaw axis" way that so many pilots fly, with their feet flat on the floor, and knowing no better...

[Shiny Side Up]

Indeed. That's because you'll have the skill to keep it co-ordinated as it should be, because you have practiced slipping. You know how to use the pedals to be purposefully co-ordinated, or slipped as you require, instead of the "who knows what's happening on the yaw axis" way that so many pilots fly, with their feet flat on the floor, and knowing no better...

Best thing that's been said here. This is the thing I consistently find is people who don't know how to slip or how to use it, frequently fly the airplane uncoordinatedly, especially when you start getting into larger airplanes that you don't typically slip.

Sure it is - but it has it's time and place. If you are flying
a tube & fabric cub or champ or t-craft with no flaps, you'd
better learn to sideslip, because after the power comes off,
that's all you have left to create drag!

But in other aircraft, you're probably not going to be
slipping very much. I can't remember the last time I
sideslipped a cabin-class piston twin, or a jet.

And that's the thing. The lowly Cessna 172 has way more in common with the tube and fabric bugsmashers than it does with cabin class twins and jets, though lots of people like to pretend otherwise.

Specifically the
slipping turn from an (excessively high) base to final is
a really useful tool.

I do this frequently, on purpose, to which I feel is a reasonable thing to do when its necessary. I could continue with a long stabilized airliner approach, I'm sure many here would prefer that. Slips are scary after all.