Air Labrador Twin Otter Hard Landing

[fish4life]

Having never flown one what is it that makes a 30 flap takeoff particularly difficult ?

[thatlowtimer]

I feel that it is very challenging, requires two well co-ordinated pilots

2, really? You feel like you need a copilot to say, "ah yes sir, you're in ground effect, really nice job sir."

Having said that, if an engine fails then the second guy would come in handy, but by no means do you require what was stated under the conditions of that accident.

[2550]

I don't see where a flap 30 takeoff would be much more challenging than 20 once you had done a few of them. The flap handle has to be moved once more, to 20, from there on it would be the same as a 20 departure. The risk involved is that your going into the air way below Vmc, and you need to stay in ground effect. Nothing too magical though.

One thing though...can someone quote the part of the flight manual that shows the approved procedure for flap 30 takeoffs? I don't remember for sure, but I don't think it exists.

[Meatservo]

One thing though...can someone quote the part of the flight manual that shows the approved procedure for flap 30 takeoffs? I don't remember for sure, but I don't think it exists.

I'm sorry I can't make the specific page appear as an attachment so you can read it, but it's in "take off procedures" in section 2 of the original DHC6 series 1 and 100 manual. Specifically page 2-4-1 para. 2.4.1 through 2.4.3.

It mentions 30 flap as the "normal" takeoff flap setting, believe it or not.

I can totally dig what pilotDAR is saying about the technique requiring training and skill. I would like to submit that this training and skill are centered around the heroics that would be required to safely deal with an engine failure occurring during that portion of the takeoff where the aircraft is airborne below VMC. I don't see where the technique to deal with this would be radically different than a 20 flap takeoff in a 300 series, which is practiced in the simulator, and does require that the crew have a very specific plan in order to deal with failures in this phase. However, the Norontair otter did not have an engine failure. If both mills are putting out power, the technique is actually not difficult. I can't think of how it differs significantly from the old "soft-field takeoff" most of us practiced without really understanding why in C172s in primary flight training. Unless I was never doing it right the whole time I flew twin otters, which I admit wasn't too much, but still it's a good technique for those times you're trying to get in the air before a rock does something you won't like to your nose gear.

For me what it comes down to is this. If this common maneuver is outside the range of your abilities to figure out, after reading the manual or heck, even having flown the plane a little bit, then I think you belong very, very far away from the cockpit of a twin otter whether the maneuvre is approved by your company or not. Actually it's probably a good thing they found out the extent of this guy's flying abilities this way rather than wait until something really bad happened.

*I'm talking about the event in Ontario. I don't know much about what happened in Labrador.

[Doc]

Having never flown one what is it that makes a 30 flap takeoff particularly difficult ?

Can't understand why some consider it to be difficult. It isn't. I've probably done several hundred. Spent weeks at a time doing nothing but 30 flap takeoffs. During that time all my landings were full flap. ZERO flap take offs.....now they were strange! Easy, but strange. Clean landings were strange as well. Unnatural.

[2550]

Yes, I think once you got used to them, flap 30 departures wouldn't be a big deal. Pretty simple proc for engine failure below vmc too: power back and land straight ahead. Easy to say, hard to do. Thats mostly what the stol training consists of, I think.

[lostinthebattle]

Post Deleted

[Siddley Hawker]

If they haven't ferried her out to Goose yet I hope they have her tied down.

METAR CYAY 062000Z AUTO 35039G52KT 1/4SM +SN VV004 M01/M02 A2894 RMK
MAX WND 34056KT AT 1946Z SLP803

[Doc]

If they haven't ferried her out to Goose yet I hope they have her tied down.

METAR CYAY 062000Z AUTO 35039G52KT 1/4SM +SN VV004 M01/M02 A2894 RMK
MAX WND 34056KT AT 1946Z SLP803

That's good for an alternate!

Ah, SPRING!

[jeta1]

The TSB issued its final report a couple weeks ago on this hard landing.

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 3a0033.asp

The TSB said the Captain "let the FO" continue with the approach to landing in difficult crosswind conditions, and when it became apparent the FO was struggling too much, the Captain offered to take over and took over controls 2 seconds before landing. The TSB assessed this late passage of controls was to blame. Captain was demoted to FO and don't know what happened after that.

I think the Captain deserves some credit for allowing the FO to fly the approach, as one would expect a qualified FO should have the ability to carry out the landing with verbal coaching by the Captain. Good read.

[ettw]

With those winds I might have even entertained 10 flaps. With 4000' and the FO landing, why not. Of course you could also suggest a cross runway landing with full flaps. Now it's 100' long and 4000' wide!!

Cheers

ETTW

[trey kule]

The impression I get is there was a good ol' boy Captain who decided to give his FO some dual on a rather challenging situation for the FO......with pax in the back on an operational flight!

And it did not work out as planned.

When I read the changes implemented by the company, it seems they have seen the light .

Take a kid out of flight school with no experience to speak of and put them in the right seat...

I would guess some bean counter figured the insurance premiums, deductibles, and company reputation when something like this happens is cheaper.

I predict we are going to see more and more of this type of avoidable accident in the future

[sidestick stirrer]

Aren't we all overlooking the obvious explanation for this?
When they put the gear down, the mains went out but the nose gear didn't.
There, that wasn't so hard, was it?
Do I have to change my handle to "Four Bars"?

[stef]

jeta1 I disagree with your comment that the captain deserves commendation for allowing the copilot to attempt the approach. Maybe it was sarcasm I'm missing? as the plane crashed.

It would have been much better CRM for the captain, knowing he or she had a higher level of skill/experience take the landing him/herself, rather than to let the FO try.

I think this type of decision gets made frequently in the name of CRM, to the detriment of overall safety.

Looking forward to the debate on this one...flame away!

[jeta1]

My argument is based on the premise that a qualified, stamped and PPC'd First Officer at a 705 carrier (it was a 705 at the time of the accident, later reverted to a 704...) should be able and expected to fly any approach in most conditions, under the Captain's supervision. A revenue-flight with passengers is not a dual-instruction flight, nor is it a "license to learn". If the Twotter F.O. was weak or needed more training, then the operator would have failed in both its responsibility in hiring, training, line-checking and putting him or her on the line with paying passengers before being ready.

As far as the actual approach, landing and CRM go, I think the Captain either should have taken controls earlier, or initiated a go-around when a safe landing could not be assured.

[av8ts]

My argument is based on the premise that a qualified, stamped and PPC'd First Officer at a 705 carrier (it was a 705 at the time of the accident, later reverted to a 704...) should be able and expected to fly any approach in most conditions, under the Captain's supervision. A revenue-flight with passengers is not a dual-instruction flight, nor is it a "license to learn". If the Twotter F.O. was weak or needed more training, then the operator would have failed in both its responsibility in hiring, training, line-checking and putting him or her on the line with paying passengers before being ready.

As far as the actual approach, landing and CRM go, I think the Captain either should have taken controls earlier, or initiated a go-around when a safe landing could not be assured.

The f/o only had 650 hours total time. Definitely still learning how to land in a 32 crosswind. Do you think the company should have him and a training Captain do a 1000 hours in the circuit til he perfects his crosswind technique. If the captain was unsure of the f/o's ability then he should have done the landing himself, but it is a licence to learn. All those cadet pilots who are flying for major airlines around the world only have a " licence to learn".i

[trey kule]

650...400 as FO on a twin otter. Pretty much right out of flight school.

Do I think your extreme example about training is correct. No...the FO should never have been put in the right seat with the experience they had. Flying a twin otter in these area is more difficult than most. Yes, it is single pilot. But unless the right seat warmer is there to just warm the seat, they are going to be flying the plane..and for that they need experience and formal training.
There is no place for any training to be done on ops flights with pax in the back...none.. If the FOis not fully qualified and experienced then they simply should not be attempting anything that might challenge
their limits. Which brings us back to the hire experience. Train well.

The right seat on a 705 ops is not the place to be learning basic flight skills.

And unfortunately, unless companies are draconian in their SOP enforcement, we will always have Captain good guys who will make the decision to be instructors.

One of the things the TSB did not touch on was the training given to the FO, or the specific upgrade and command training given to the Captain, as he appeared to be a product of this system as well.
Some companies actually upgrade on nothing more than flight time and type rating..PIC training is zero.

[av8ts]

many airlines upgrade based on nothing more than a ppc and a senority number. Where does a pilot straight out of flying school learn to be proficient in a 35 knot cross wind?

[Chuck Finley]

I think the Captain either should have taken controls earlier, or initiated a go-around when a safe landing could not be assuredr

Come on. We're talking about Air Lab here.

[trey kule]

Ah....they should learn pretty much how to do that as part of their FTU training. Make that of what you will.
Enough to have the basics.

They should get exposure during their company type training.

They should get opportunity to attempt them when it is well within their limits.

They should not be getting dual instructing/supervised practice when it may be outside their limits from a good ol' boy, Captain-mentor-instructor. And this presents some problems from a company perspective, as it allows Captain's discretion.....and some Captains forget that job 1 is to get their pax safely and comfortably to their destination. It is why there are training Captains in many companies, who are tasked with assessing and improving pilot flying.

And of course, the FTUs, who are all about safety, do not expose their students to these type of landings. Safety, of course is graduating CPLs who do not possess the basic flying skills, and letting the operators worry about it

One of the things that stood out for me was the Captains TT, time on type, and PIC on type...
Not exactly an experienced Command type, and nothing was reported on what type of command training he was given or the company assessment of his ability ability as a Captain.

I think that maybe TSB is not really looking for root causes....or solutions

[Mr. North]

Nailed it on the head there Trey Kule. The hours explain it all. A junior captain like that should have been paired with a senior FO.

Regardless, the Captain should have conducted the landing as there were passengers on board and conditions weren't ideal. But I'm betting with all his FO time, and to further emulate the "good" captains he flew with previously, he probably felt compelled to give the FO a challenging landing.

[DeltaHotel]

Jeta1, there's a big difference between qualified and experienced.
Flying in this part of the country can be challenging and I think you need to "work up to it"

I flew the twin for Air Lab years ago and Capt took controls in challenging weather regularly at first. The opposite is true too, I gave controls to the capt when I did feel it... I've got nothing to prove.