Glad I'm not the only one

[Colonel Sanders]

$120/hr buys you an IFR 172M with new paint, new
interior and IFR avionics. Instructor is probably either
a retired three star general RCAF fighter pilot, or a nice
young guy (early 40's) that I trained myself - he's sharp.

30 dual hrs @ ($120+$32) + 20 solo hrs @ ($120) = $6960

Plus some taxes (this is Canada - Canadians just
love high taxes and big government) plus some
other fees and crap.

Most people aren't doing their PPL in 50 hours, and they're
paying Euro-prices (big government) instead of USA prices,
where the avgas is almost half the price of ours, and
any flight instructor can offer ab initio training on his own
privately owned aircraft the very first day he gets his
flight instructor rating. No OC or MCM or AMO or SMS or
any of that very expensive alphabet soup.

Contrast that with a nice young kid in his early 20's I know.
Class 4 instructor, but he's done 500 hours of instruction in
the last 2 years, but hasn't gotten enough recommends to
move up to a class 3. I really get tired of all the poaching
and shenanigans when it comes to instructors stealing
recommends from each other.

Anyways, in Canada, here we have an instructor with nearly 1000
hrs and 500 hrs dual given and 2 years flight instructor experience,
but he isn't allowed to freelance, EVEN ON AN OWNER'S PRIVATELY
OWNED AIRCRAFT. And, he will NEVER, EVER be able to instruct
on his own aircraft. Gotta get an FTU OC and an MCM and an
AMO and SMS. I spent 6 years getting an MCM once, for an FTU
with no AMO I could have written that MCM on one page.

You think all that unnecessary overhead comes without any cost?
We know it's unnecessary, because under the IPL, TC accepts
FAA private, comm & ATP at par.

[Beefitarian]

See, for me, I keep thinking. I'd like to live where I still put on my winter jacket but at around 15 or 20 degrees C instead of 2.

Yet, here we are in Canada. Guess you're right about that thing you said about choices.

[xysn]

$120/hr buys you an IFR 172M with new paint, new interior and IFR avionics. Instructor is probably either a retired three star general RCAF fighter pilot, or a nice young guy (early 40's) that I trained myself - he's sharp.

That's eye opening. Not sure about the instructor / airplane availability, but if someone in the "big city" could do three flights per weekend from April through November, factoring in some cancellations, you could STILL get a PPL done in the summer and come out way ahead on costs, and presumably get excellent instruction as well. Weekday flights would be out, but I'm not even sure that matters.

[CpnCrunch]

$120/hr buys you an IFR 172M with new paint, new interior and IFR avionics. Instructor is probably either a retired three star general RCAF fighter pilot, or a nice young guy (early 40's) that I trained myself - he's sharp.

That's eye opening.

Not really, that's the typical price you pay at a flying club. The extra $30/hr that you typically pay at a flight school is their profit and/or overhead. Flying clubs don't make a profit and typically don't have any employees to pay. (And before I get accosted by Shiny, I'm not saying that making a profit is bad).

What I don't understand is why Calgary Flying Club charges the same as a for-profit school. Is it just they have large overheads and there isn't really much profit anyway in running a flying school?

[Beefitarian]

Partially because they built a new hanger a few years ago. I don't know if it's paid for. You could get on the board probably.

[white_knuckle_flyer]

$120/hr buys you an IFR 172M with new paint, new
interior and IFR avionics. Instructor is probably either
a retired three star general RCAF fighter pilot, or a nice
young guy (early 40's) that I trained myself - he's sharp.

30 dual hrs @ ($120+$32) + 20 solo hrs @ ($120) = $6960

Yes, your calculations show that doing a PPL for $7500 is possible, but it's still very far from plausible. I'm sure if I included the costs of commuting to where those great prices are, I would be even further in the hole than $20K.

[white_knuckle_flyer]

I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be pay a gas surcharge or insurance on top of $220/hr (assume that includes GST and PST?)

I think ground briefings can make a difference. Some schools charge for these and give you lots of briefings, while others just charge for hobbs time.

Definitely paid both surcharge and insurance when flying solo. For dual, there was no insurance (obviously) but not sure about the surcharge.

Definitely got charged for ground briefing for every session. This is where it is especially misleading. I read in numerous places how ground briefings would happen "from time to time". For me, every lesson included some ground briefing. Even when there was not much briefing, there was always a .3 or .5 time tacked on. I thought I would have to pay for about 5 hours of briefing overall, but I bet it was more like 10 - 12 hours.

And no, the $220 did not include taxes.

And here is something that they never address in their information. You need X hours of flight time, but you don't just pay for the time in the air. So, an hour at $160 (solo ) sounds okay, but to get that hour put into your log book you have to pay for 1.2 hours at $160 + surcharge + insurance + taxes which comes out more like $225 !

So unless the literature should be using real numbers like $225 per hour or at least $200 before taxes if they want to be forthcoming.

[TheStig]

SSU, I enjoy Martha's articles as well, that one in particular. She does a great job of putting things that run through everyone's heads onto paper.

The comment may be true about the broader population (or maybe I'm just getting old and cynical), but I don't think it's generally true of aviation.

I think that's what she was saying, the traits that draw us into aviation may not have changed within the aviation community, but they don't seem to be popular in todays society. With that said, the thread drift here was a bit of an eye opener, I certainly couldn't afford to become a pilot given the costs today regardless of how much I value freedom, independence, hard work and taking responsibility for myself. $150/Hour may be properly adjusted for inflation, but wages certainly haven't kept up the cost of living.

[Shiny Side Up]

$120/hr buys you an IFR 172M with new paint, new
interior and IFR avionics. Instructor is probably either
a retired three star general RCAF fighter pilot, or a nice
young guy (early 40's) that I trained myself - he's sharp.

Still not sure how you get down to $120/hour on one of these things. Though I suspect there are some differences in operations. You should up your prices for instruction though, your pilots deserve more. I don't know though, I heard your one instructor is mean, one of his students always comes on here and whines about it.

Plus some taxes (this is Canada - Canadians just
love high taxes and big government) plus some
other fees and crap.

On the whole, Canadians get reasonable value for their tax dollar. Yes Americans pay less taxes, but hell, they get a lot less. Mexicans pay more tax then we do, and they get friggin' nothing. Now don't get me wrong, I resent our government's waste and a lot of the poor service we get for our tax dollar, but I'm also keenly aware that on the whole we got it pretty good. Worldwide, good value for tax dollars just isn't a high bar, saying that we get good value for our tax dollar just ain't saying much.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

On the whole, Canadians get reasonable value for their tax dollar.

wait until you desperately need your medical care should you get seriously ill.....

.......after you experience Canada's health care you just might have a different opinion on the subject.

[Shiny Side Up]

Oh I have, and have been extremely disappointed, I recently spent a few nights in a hospital, and even as a layman I could pick out dozens of inefficiencies in our system. None the less, much like everything in life, it can always be worse. That's not saying it shouldn't be better, but its a matter of perspective.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Re ground briefing.

I am just finishing off a PPL, my last I really, really, really, hope. When he goes to the flight test I will have billed him a total of about 10 hours of ground briefing time. I am not in the slightest ashamed about this and I would fire any student who gave me a hard time about billing him for ground briefing

You should not be learning new stuff in the airplane. Airplane time is expensive and valuable and so when you get into the airplane you should have a very clear idea of what you are going to be doing on this flight and how you are going to be doing it delivered by your instructor on the ground before the flight in a organized and effective briefing.

That is what ground briefing is for and if you are not getting the "What" and the "How" information before you step into the airplane you instructor is failing you.

[CpnCrunch]

Definitely paid both surcharge and insurance when flying solo. For dual, there was no insurance (obviously) but not sure about the surcharge.

Definitely got charged for ground briefing for every session. This is where it is especially misleading. I read in numerous places how ground briefings would happen "from time to time". For me, every lesson included some ground briefing. Even when there was not much briefing, there was always a .3 or .5 time tacked on. I thought I would have to pay for about 5 hours of briefing overall, but I bet it was more like 10 - 12 hours.

And no, the $220 did not include taxes.

And here is something that they never address in their information. You need X hours of flight time, but you don't just pay for the time in the air. So, an hour at $160 (solo ) sounds okay, but to get that hour put into your log book you have to pay for 1.2 hours at $160 + surcharge + insurance + taxes which comes out more like $225 !

So unless the literature should be using real numbers like $225 per hour or at least $200 before taxes if they want to be forthcoming.

I think you're being well and truly fleeced! At least in Alberta, it's not difficult finding a school that charges $200+GST all-in for a 172+instructor with no extras apart from maybe some ground briefings if you need them.

The $150/hr rate with instructor is only really feasible if it's an all-volunteer operation and there are no overheads, but $280/hr (or whatever you're paying after all those fees) is frankly ridiculous.