Flight instructors logging of instrument time

eterepekio · Post by **eterepekio** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:51 pm

instrument time" - instrument flight time or instrument ground time

"instrument flight time" - time during which a pilot is controlling an aircraft by sole reference to the flight instruments and without external reference points.

"actual instrument flight time" - means flight time during which a pilot controls an aircraft flown in cloud or other conditions that prevent the use of external reference points and require the pilot to control the aircraft by sole reference to the flight instruments.

"simulated instrument flight time" - means flight time during which a pilot is controlling the aircraft by sole reference to the flight instruments during VFR conditions and while a safety pilot is on board.

"instrument ground time" - time during which a pilot is practicing simulated instrument flight on a synthetic flight trainer approved by the Department of Transport and appropriate to the category of licence or rating for which application is being made.

Could you point me where I can find the above references?

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:09 pm

I'm also curious where these definitions came from exactly.

Flaperons · Post by **Flaperons** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:49 am

Wow. I can't believe there's so much confusion on this issue among the people trying to create instrument pilots.

(3) No holder of an instrument rating shall exercise the privileges referred to in Section 401.47 unless the holder has

(a) within the 12 months preceding the flight, successfully completed an instrument rating flight test in an aircraft or in a Level B, C or D simulator of the same group as the aircraft;

(b) within the six months preceding the flight, acquired six hours of instrument time and completed six instrument approaches to the minima specified in the Canada Air Pilot in an aircraft, in actual or simulated instrument meteorological conditions, or in a Level B, C or D simulator of the same category as the aircraft or in a flight training device under the supervision of a person who holds the qualifications referred to in subsection 425.21(9) of the personnel licensing standards;
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(c) within the six months preceding the flight, acquired six hours of instrument time and completed six instrument approaches to the minima specified in the Canada Air Pilot in an aircraft, in actual or simulated instrument meteorological conditions, while acting as a flight instructor conducting training in respect of the endorsement of a flight crew licence or permit with an instrument rating; or
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(d) successfully completed, for an aircraft, a pilot proficiency check whose validity period has not expired and which included the instrument procedures portion of
(amended 2001/03/01; no previous version)

If you are teaching instruments towards an IFR ticket, you can log the same hood time as the student. Otherwise, you would both have to be under the hood, which makes no sense. The reason you can do this is because you are monitoring their scan/navigation/approach techniques and are therefore strengthening your own at the same time. That being said, it is YOUR responsibility to ensure that you maintain a minimum level of proficiency in these techniques. This can not be accomplished simply by teaching instruments. There is no substitute for cloud time.

If you are logging "actual" time every time you file an IFR flight plan, then you are cheating. No, nobody will ever be able to argue whether or not you were really in IMC, but when you go for that check ride at a new job, I guarantee you they'll be able to tell how much "actual" you've flown. And that's where it really counts, isn't it?

Don't worry - you'll get that time in the end. Stop being such idiots.

Hi Cat!

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:03 am

Logging instrument time is simpler than any of you state. If you use the instruments to fly, it is called instrument time. If you use outside visual reference to fly, it's not instrument time.

Funny I see Airbus pilots logging time when they're not even "flying."

Pugster · Post by **Pugster** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:56 am

This whole topic, which I am guilty of joining in on from time to time, is completely ridiculous. Let's face it folks, there's loophole after frickin loophole and reason after reason that you should log one way or another...

Let's look at a brief summary:

1.) On autopilot?
2.) As PNF?
3.) As an instructor while student is under the hood?
4.) On an IFR plan but in VMC?
5.) Filed IFR but in VMC over a solid layer?
6.) IFR on a clear night over unlit terrain?
7.) In cloud but not "solid" cloud?

And that's just scratching the surface I'm sure. I've never found anyone who can agree on when it's legal, so I'd strongly suggest this - don't worry about it (do what you feel comfortable with), just don't let your logbook reflect more experience than you can back up with skill. And if you're simply concerned with the ATPL requirements, then I'd just go to the TC office you'll be giving your logbook to, ask them what they want, and do it.

Let's put this one to bed.

CARO · Post by **CARO** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:43 pm

I have spoken to licensing officers and transport inspectors about this. If your student is under the hood and you are training them for IFR, it counts toward the 6-6-6 IFR currency provision, so it is a good idea to put it in your logbook. However, it does not count towards ATPL requirements. I have been puting an asterisk beside hood time that is acquired from students under the hood. This way I have proof I am IFR current, but I do not include these times in my hood total time.

TC Guy · Post by **TC Guy** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:14 pm

CARO wrote:I have spoken to licensing officers and transport inspectors about this. If your student is under the hood and you are training them for IFR, it counts toward the 6-6-6 IFR currency provision, so it is a good idea to put it in your logbook. However, it does not count towards ATPL requirements. I have been puting an asterisk beside hood time that is acquired from students under the hood. This way I have proof I am IFR current, but I do not include these times in my hood total time.

Probably the most sane post I have seen in a while. The regs are not terribly clear. This "instructor loophole" is there so that 99% of all instructors in Canada are not "uncurrent" (is that a word?).

If you do as is stated above, you will have no issues when you go for your ATPL licencing. If you are training students IMC, then log it as "actual" or "cloud" time, and it does count.

Once you have your ATPL, you really don't care too much, EXCEPT for currency!

And, don't get me started on cross-country time. <shudder>

-Guy

sakism · Post by **sakism** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:40 pm

"IMC" or "instrument meteorological conditions" - means meteorological conditions less than the minima specified in Division VI of Subpart 2 of Part VI for visual meteorological conditions, expressed in terms of visibility and distance from cloud

Just to throw in another aspect of this crazy question - the above is the definition, from the CARs, of IMC.

Does this means that when I get Special VFR that I can log the time in the control zone as actual IMC?

The definitions of VMC/IMC change in controlled vs. uncontrolled airspace, as we all know. Therefore, when determining what to log as actual IMC I also have to consider the airspace?

TC Guy · Post by **TC Guy** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 5:26 pm

sakism wrote:"IMC" or "instrument meteorological conditions" - means meteorological conditions less than the minima specified in Division VI of Subpart 2 of Part VI for visual meteorological conditions, expressed in terms of visibility and distance from cloud

Just to throw in another aspect of this crazy question - the above is the definition, from the CARs, of IMC.

Does this means that when I get Special VFR that I can log the time in the control zone as actual IMC?

The definitions of VMC/IMC change in controlled vs. uncontrolled airspace, as we all know. Therefore, when determining what to log as actual IMC I also have to consider the airspace?

I see what you are saying here. Let me try an answer:

Can you log Special VFR as Actual instrument time? Only if you are flying on sole refernce to instruments-- and if you are VFR in Special VFR conditions, you are not.

So:
Flying with sole reference to instruments under the hood = hood time
Flying with sole reference to instruments in IMC (yes, an argument could be made for Special VFR, I suppose) = actual time

Yes, there is some grey area here.

I think if you use a reasonable amount of common sense, it will all work out.

-Guy

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:10 am

The strange thing about all this anguish over flying on instruments is it is easier to fly with reference to the instruments only than it is to fly looking outside in severe clear VFR...less things to distract you from the flying the aircraft.....

...Sooo we should be worrying about how many hours you have flown VFR instead of in of cloud where it is so easy..

Cat