Don't Turn On The AutoPilot

[LousyFisherman]

Never used an autopilot for my first several thousand hours of IFR. Was never one installed. When it came to flying one particular type with a flight attendant on board, you really preferred not to fly with the fat ones. It makes a big difference when they walk back and forth compared to the skinny ones.

This is one of the reasons I will NEVER become a commercial pilot. Change the verb, the same applies to a different location

LF

[trey kule]

Well. It seems like the pilots at SFO decided to let the new guy hand fly the approach.
Is that relevant to the discussion here for all the "lets turn off the AP" group
Flight training should not happen on operational flights

[YYZSaabGuy]

Flight training should not happen on operational flights

Not trying to quibble here, TK, but isn't line indoctrination effectively a form of flight training?

[trey kule]

Well, Quibbly
Like so many things is aviation, it is not so black and white.

During the type training/PPC pilots are learning to fly the plane. To handle normal, abnormal and emergency situations.

The line indoc/check is about gaining experience and finally being evaluated....the pilots are expected to know what they are doing. And...and...while company policies vary somewhat, during line indoc/checks the plane/operations are flown as an operational flight. There is no training really been done. There is learning, but that is a product of the experience, and there is evaluation.

So, whether you consider it training, I suppose depends on your definition of training. There are those that say because we are always learning, every flight is a training flight. And at the other end, if there is no training objective than it was not training.

I like quibbling...actually I just like the sound of the word

From my point of view, there is no specified training happening, and I take this rather limited view so to discourage the younger (and sometimes older) ones from playing with the plane under the guise that it is trainng.

[YYZSaabGuy]

During the type training/PPC pilots are learning to fly the plane. To handle normal, abnormal and emergency situations. The line indoc/check is about gaining experience and finally being evaluated....the pilots are expected to know what they are doing. And...and...while company policies vary somewhat, during line indoc/checks the plane/operations are flown as an operational flight. There is no training really been done. There is learning, but that is a product of the experience, and there is evaluation.

OK, understand the distinction you're drawing. Thanks.

[spaner]

Is this thread for real? Guys are not just trolling?

I am shocked, total shocked.
Hand flying becomes less and less taxing the more it is done, not the other way around.
Becomes almost subconscious, as being linked to the scan.
"we're about to go to "manual-operational-mode".
"Go to yellow alert", "Amber cabin lights 'ON', sir"

Never used an autopilot for my first several thousand hours of IFR. Was never one installed.

How the hell is the above not the norm?
It's not unusual for me to put in a 15hr day all IMC (500 base), do 13 legs, with 13 approaches, all mins, 1 or 2 redoes, and an alternate.

ALL by ma main gauche..

This is a joke right? Ha, ha, funny guys..

[scm]

I mostly used to fly with the autopilot off because I wanted to get good at hand flying. But I've had enough practice so ill probably start flying autopilot.

[pelmet]

Our company encourages us to do some manual flying but in visual conditions. Usually the A/P is disengaged on final, sometimes earlier. On departure, it depends on the situation. At busier locations or more complicated places or for other reasons, it may come on fairly quickly after departure or wait for a while.

It appears that some places(or persons) think you should always have it on and then wonder why people can't fly a stable approach manually anymore.

[spaner]

It appears that some places(or persons) think you should always have it on and then wonder why people can't fly a stable approach manually anymore.

Well that's what I don't get. How can they affirm that the pilot should come to the job with those "skills", and if not, more training is required? He didn't "get" those "skills" from the training, he got those "skills" from the line. Like, not logical.

Analogy; A highly experienced welder is hired by Ford to supervise the robotic welding machines recently acquired from China. Day in and day out, he sips his coffee and watches the never varying highly precisioned machines do their welding. Two years later, the computer control boards fry, due to a power spike.
Finally, Mr welder jumps in to save the day. Only what he finds is that he can't keep up to the line, and all of his welds are slag. The units are scraped and the welder is fired for cause. (can't weld)
Where once, he could weld, as good as the machines could weld, now, he is only good at watching the machines weld.

Replace weld with fly..

[Doc]

Well. It seems like the pilots at SFO decided to let the new guy hand fly the approach.
Is that relevant to the discussion here for all the "lets turn off the AP" group
Flight training should not happen on operational flights

Is this true?
First off, you OWE your passengers the safest flight possible. This means let the auto pilot fly and monitor. There is NO way a 777 should be "hand flown" on an approach with a functioning auto land system available. I'm willing to wager, this was way off their SOPs. This is tantamount to man slaughter. Seriously. Who gave these pilots the right to endanger the lives of their passengers?? The fact that they "should" be able to hand fly a stabilized approach aside, (this crew obviously could NOT) the passengers did not buy tickets to be "test" subjects!
Hand fly the puppy in the SIM. That's what it's there for.......

[Doc]

It appears that some places(or persons) think you should always have it on and then wonder why people can't fly a stable approach manually anymore.

Well that's what I don't get. How can they affirm that the pilot should come to the job with those "skills", and if not, more training is required? He didn't "get" those "skills" from the training, he got those "skills" from the line. Like, not logical.

Analogy; A highly experienced welder is hired by Ford to supervise the robotic welding machines recently acquired from China. Day in and day out, he sips his coffee and watches the never varying highly precisioned machines do their welding. Two years later, the computer control boards fry, due to a power spike.
Finally, Mr welder jumps in to save the day. Only what he finds is that he can't keep up to the line, and all of his welds are slag. The units are scraped and the welder is fired for cause. (can't weld)
Where once, he could weld, as good as the machines could weld, now, he is only good at watching the machines weld.

Replace weld with fly..

EXCEPT your welder doesn't have to qualify as a welder every six months to a year in a multi-million welding dollar simulator......whic makes your whole analogy complete bull shit! Not even in the same hemisphere.......that and if mister welder can't weld......nobody dies!

[Beefitarian]

EXCEPT, some have to take a test quite often because if they can't weld properly the structure holding up a building falls down or the boiler explodes! Then people die.

If you can't pass the CWB test go flip burgers or get a CPL.

[Doc]

EXCEPT, some have to take a test quite often because if they can't weld properly the structure holding up a building falls down or the boiler explodes! Then people die.

If you can't pass the CWB test go flip burgers or get a CPL.

I'm sure they get tested occasionally as burger flippers as well....but that's really not the point.

[Beefitarian]

I'm sure they get tested occasionally as burger flippers as well....but that's really not the point.

What is?

Spanner and I think the point is you should practice and be capable to weld, fly an airplane or even serve coffee at Tim Hortons... what ever your job is. Otherwise they should replace you with someone worthy of being paid to do so. There are no qualified professionals anymore and I'm tired of having to try to figure out how to order something because it can't be done here in French or English.

Earn your 15% or cry about not getting a gratuity from me after. Do a good job and you'll get extra. There's a reason the only bill in your tip jar was the one you put in yourself.

[Beefitarian]

Part of doing a job well is learning how to both utilize the coffee maker while you take an order and being able to say excuse me so you can pull the doughnuts out of the hot oven when the timer is signaling you.

Replace, coffee maker with auto pilot. Know how and when to use it as well as when to tell ATC, "Stand by one." While you fly the plane and how to do that if you need to.

[Doc]

Sure wish I had your experience Beef.

[Beefitarian]

Come down to YYC we could get you some apprenticeships. You don't have to just do one job your whole life.

[Beefitarian]

Wait. Did you mean getting married?

We could probably find someone to do that to you here too but all this green grass is tough to take after a while wishing you were poor because you're a pilot instead. Eating some occasional alfalfa, oats, wheat, thistle, etc.

[Rookie50]

I mostly used to fly with the autopilot off because I wanted to get good at hand flying. But I've had enough practice so ill probably start flying autopilot.

You've never had enough practice. Not in IMC anyway.

[LousyFisherman]

EXCEPT your welder doesn't have to qualify as a welder every six months to a year in a multi-million welding dollar simulator......whic makes your whole analogy complete bull shit! Not even in the same hemisphere.......that and if mister welder can't weld......nobody dies!

Doc, I usually admire and respect your comments but the above demonstrates your lack of knowledge of the welding profession.
Pressure welders have EVERY SINGLE WELD INSPECTED EVERY DAY.!!!
A bad weld results in a written warning, a second bad weld results in termination.

The reason? If a pressure vessel fails PEOPLE DIE!!!!

I have to ask again, why do pilots feel the need to denigrate other professions?
FFS
LF

[Shiny Side Up]

Doc, I usually admire and respect your comments but the above demonstrates your lack of knowledge of the welding profession.
Pressure welders have EVERY SINGLE WELD INSPECTED EVERY DAY.!!!
A bad weld results in a written warning, a second bad weld results in termination.

The reason? If a pressure vessel fails PEOPLE DIE!!!!

Indeed, and many other professions are similar. You screw up once, out of a job. Oddly enough it doesn't seem to apply to pilots. A welder who fails an inspection loses his pressure ticket if I remember, and qualifies for it before every job. On the other hand, I know plenty of pilots who f@cked up a lot of things and still manage to hold a pilot's license. The funny thing is how many pilots figure they deserve more pay based upon what other professions make, but really have no idea what is involved in those other professions. I get the idea frequently that many pilots haven't held jobs that aren't in aviation so really have no experience in what the rest of the world of work is like.

[pelmet]

Well. It seems like the pilots at SFO decided to let the new guy hand fly the approach.
Is that relevant to the discussion here for all the "lets turn off the AP" group
Flight training should not happen on operational flights

Is this true?
First off, you OWE your passengers the safest flight possible. This means let the auto pilot fly and monitor. There is NO way a 777 should be "hand flown" on an approach with a functioning auto land system available. I'm willing to wager, this was way off their SOPs. This is tantamount to man slaughter. Seriously. Who gave these pilots the right to endanger the lives of their passengers?? The fact that they "should" be able to hand fly a stabilized approach aside, (this crew obviously could NOT) the passengers did not buy tickets to be "test" subjects!
Hand fly the puppy in the SIM. That's what it's there for.......

These have to be some of the silliest statements I have ever heard from a commercial pilot. I have been flying similar sized type for quite a while. Seeing as we need an ILS for for an autoland, what are we going to do when no ILS is available? Cancel all flights to SFO for three months in widebody jets and all the other locations where no ILS is available for the runway in use. I take it that you guys don't fly a 777. Of course approaches are hand flown. And guess what. It is no more diffucult than in a turboprop. And of course I manually landed my first landing on the aircraft. Just like almost every other landing I have done since.

[pelmet]

Message from Doc to me......"I have put you on my "ignore" list. Sometimes I click on your comments, but usually I just have better things to do do(sic) than read your ill advised insults. I not only don't believe half the crap you shovel here, but I believe you to be, at best, a low timer with good internet skills. I will only read PM's from now on from you. Now, I must go wash my hair."


I guess this means he must know what he is talking about regarding how airliners should be flown.

That being said, I am a low timer compared to some. Almost all of us are. And unfortunately, I am not very good with computers or the internet.

[Brown Bear]

From Doc to me......"I have put you on my "ignore" list. Sometimes I click on your comments, but usually I just have better things to do do than read your ill advised insults. I not only don't believe half the crap you shovel here, but I believe you to be, at best, a low timer with good internet skills. I will only read PM's from now on from you. Now, I must go wash my hair."

Somebody sends you a PM, and you place it on an open forum. He's right about you. You are pond scum.

[pelmet]

From Doc to me......"I have put you on my "ignore" list. Sometimes I click on your comments, but usually I just have better things to do do(sic) than read your ill advised insults. I not only don't believe half the crap you shovel here, but I believe you to be, at best, a low timer with good internet skills. I will only read PM's from now on from you. Now, I must go wash my hair."

Somebody sends you a PM, and you place it on an open forum. He's right about you. You are pond scum.

Hey......somebody decides to send me an insulting message....don't expect me have much interest in their concerns or rights about keeping their message confidential.