Multi engine aircraft rental.

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CFR
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Re: Multi engine aircraft rental.

Post by CFR »

proper wrote:The amount of ignorance and petty judging on avcanada never ceases to amaze me :lol:
It ceased to amaze me quite some time ago and sadly, has become routine. The average from OP to first mudslinging, seems to be around 5 posts.

PS I rented a Piper Seneca to take my family for a local flight immediately after completing my multi rating. Flying with two engines producing power was unusual! A la Col Sanders, would I consider doing so now, over a year later with a grand total of 15 hours on type? Nope, not without a serious amount of refresher.
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Re: Multi engine aircraft rental.

Post by Colonel Sanders »

The average from OP to first mudslinging, seems to be around 5 posts
Not a unique problem to AvCanada. I remember around
20 years ago, when the internet first started to get used,
before CERN came up with the URL stuff, horrible arguments
would arise on USENET, which was a distributed text-based
bulletin board. You could attach binaries (ah, uuencode) which
as far as I could tell, allowed pr0n images to drive the development
of higher-speed modems. But as usual, I digress.

The point is, 20 years ago on USENET, people started horrible
arguments that they would never do in person. I think it was
rec.skiing that spawned incredible lawsuits. Anything starting
with "alt" was the wild west.

Back to posting stuff. The problem is a lack of feedback. Posting
to the internet is "open loop". This results in immature people
saying things that they would never, ever say in person.

PS I apologize for my "control theory" template that I push
ahead of me, as I extrude reality through it, into what I expect.

A four-bars, for example, pushing his CRM template ahead of
him, would see this problem as a failure of CRM (as all problems
are), and he would opine that every person posting to the internet
needs another crewmember sitting next to him, to help him with
his posts to the internet.

You must admit that the CRM template is a much more amusing
one than my math, physics and control theory template, which is
pretty boring unless you're doing surface acro, in which case
that's what keeps you alive. Not CRM, which is why four-bars
compulsively trivialize stick and rudder airshow flying - that reality
isn't extruded through their CRM template, and is thus of no interest.
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Re: Multi engine aircraft rental.

Post by white_knuckle_flyer »

Colonel Sanders wrote:If you and I go flying in a piston twin loaded to max
gross on a hot day, and I pull an engine at 100 feet, you are dead.
...but what would happen to you, Colonel ? :mrgreen:

Sorry, I had to have a little fun.
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Colonel Sanders
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Re: Multi engine aircraft rental.

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Reasonable question.

http://www.pittspecials.com/articles/MultiTakeoff.htm
If an engine fails at very low altitude, before you move your right hand from the throttles to the gear selector, push the nose down to maintain airspeed, and simply pull both throttles back and land on the remaining runway. If you have lots of runway left, you should be able to land with no damage to the airframe. The gear is still down, remember? If you took off from a short runway your landing might not be pretty, but you and your passengers will do better than if you had elected to continue the takeoff.

In the above scenario I have deliberately decided against going aviating in a piston twin with only one engine, with the gear down and one engine windmilling and producing drag. You aren’t going to be able to maintain a positive rate of climb with all that drag, and you don’t have time to get rid of all that drag, so it’s best to land sooner, under control. It’s always best to land under control.
A very unreasonable answer. Please share your decades
of piston/prop multi-engine experience.
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Re: Multi engine aircraft rental.

Post by CFR »

Colonel Sanders wrote:Reasonable question.

http://www.pittspecials.com/articles/MultiTakeoff.htm
If an engine fails at very low altitude, before you move your right hand from the throttles to the gear selector, push the nose down to maintain airspeed, and simply pull both throttles back and land on the remaining runway. If you have lots of runway left, you should be able to land with no damage to the airframe. The gear is still down, remember? If you took off from a short runway your landing might not be pretty, but you and your passengers will do better than if you had elected to continue the takeoff.

In the above scenario I have deliberately decided against going aviating in a piston twin with only one engine, with the gear down and one engine windmilling and producing drag. You aren’t going to be able to maintain a positive rate of climb with all that drag, and you don’t have time to get rid of all that drag, so it’s best to land sooner, under control. It’s always best to land under control.
"... LOWER THE NOSE ..." This is one area where I do believe aerobatics training comes in handy. Having the windscreen filled with ground is no longer as scary as it once was. Glider towing in a Pawnee is helpful as well. We cross the threshold at 200 AGL to avoid having the tow rope drag through crops or be a hazard to gliders at the departure end and then stuff the nose down, again filling the windscreen with ground, till rounding out. Seems very natural now ...
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Re: Multi engine aircraft rental.

Post by Colonel Sanders »

"... LOWER THE NOSE ..."
Not sure how many times I repeated that in the article,
but it can't be repeated enough times. When something
goes wrong, pilots want to go up. Really badly. And
their instincts are wrong. I spend a lot of time training
people to overcome their incorrect instincts, which will
kill them.

LOWER THE NOSE
This is one area where I do believe aerobatics training comes in handy
Never thought of that, but you're probably right. The
four-bars like to ridicule the value of "stick & rudder"
aerobatics, but pretty much every day I am in a vertical
downline at 500 feet and 180 mph and wide open throttle,
and pull +6G to level at the surface. I suppose the visuals
are a little unusual for most straight and level pilots.

This is why an engine failure after takeoff in a single is
so boring, if you've done years and years of surface acro.
Instantly bank 59.9 degrees of bank into the crosswind
and lower the nose as required. I could eat a sandwich while
I did that. So could any competent surface level aerobatic
pilot.
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proper
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Re: Multi engine aircraft rental.

Post by proper »

wow that did it.... now I want to go down on you...
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Re: Multi engine aircraft rental.

Post by Colonel Sanders »

That's a very pretty template that you're pushing ahead of you.
A four-bars, for example, pushing his CRM template ahead of
him, would see this problem as a failure of CRM (as all problems
are), and he would opine that every person posting to the internet
needs another crewmember sitting next to him, to help him with
his posts to the internet.

You must admit that the CRM template is a much more amusing
one than my math, physics and control theory template, which is
pretty boring unless you're doing surface acro, in which case
that's what keeps you alive. Not CRM, which is why four-bars
compulsively trivialize stick and rudder airshow flying - that reality
isn't extruded through their CRM template, and is thus of no interest.
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Re: Multi engine aircraft rental.

Post by Jellyman »

59.9 degrees!?! WTF!

Ya know CS, sometimes you come on here and legitimately have something useful to say, but then you go and say that, you just make yourself sound like a total clown. I am not going to mention my credentials, or where and what I have flown or type of flying I have done, but one thing I will say is NO-ONE not even YOU can say they have ever held "59.9 degrees"!

I was going to say, "the truth with light twins," but the fact is depending on where you fly light twins, the second engine will not help you in an engine failure. If you take a Twin-Cammanche off in Springbank at a suface elevation of 4000FT(Approx.) and a temp of +25, that second engine is not going to keep you airbourne, no matter how much of an ace you are. There just isnt enough power. Now if your at Vancouver, or Ottawa.....it's going to help if flown properly. What it all comes down to, and what it has always comes down to, is the pilot. PERIOD!

Now, I was an instructor, like many of you posting on here, and I have had people who have been in the Airlines come in and scare the shit out me just like you. But after a couple of flights they have it back again. And what is going to make them safer, after a refresher, is their EXPERIENCE and JUDGEMNT!

And to all you instructors on here with all your time in light aircraft and a seemingly harch distain for anyone flying something over 5000lbs.....enjoy your career at Transport!
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Colonel Sanders
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Re: Multi engine aircraft rental.

Post by Colonel Sanders »

NO-ONE not even YOU can say they have ever held "59.9 degrees"
How many years have you spent at the Tribunal, Tribunal Review, Federal Court and Federal Court of Appeals?

What proof do you have that I do not fly 59.9 degrees of bank?
seemingly harch distain (sic) for anyone flying something over 5000lbs
Yes, I only fly piston/prop: http://i.imgur.com/CScEj.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIyIDJAc7f8
I have had people who have been in the Airlines come in and scare the shit out me
They're very consistent. A few years back, the Pride of
Air Canada went flying with a local doctor and trashed
the landing gear on his taildragger. That was the end of
that airframe. Good job!

And recently, a couple more AC pilots trashed the engines
on a light twin. Spun the bearings so bad the clamshells
were garbage. Good job!
I am not going to mention my credentials
Their credentials were probably almost as good as yours.
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Re: Multi engine aircraft rental.

Post by Jellyman »

Sorry....You're the man. Thanks for the pics and video clip, I stand corrected.

Good Day Sir.
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Re: Multi engine aircraft rental.

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Sorry....You're the man
No, you completely misunderstand. You're the man. Just try not to trash too many little airplanes, ok? The rest of us get annoyed at the carnage that you four-bars leave behind you.
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Re: Multi engine aircraft rental.

Post by Jellyman »

No Bars....no auto-pilot....no automation. Stick and rudder, low and slow. Cleaning bugs off the windscreen is the only way to go! :D

OP - Go rent a twin, be safe and have fun.
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