337 gear up in YPL?

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:12 pm

I've got only 220hrs and I haven't forgotten the gear yet

I don't think I ever want to either! I'm so paranoid about it, that it gets checked 3 times before short final... Not all 250hr wonder boys are useless! wait.. I don't have 250hrs yet :S

Are 337's notorious for gear isssues?

PA31 Driver · Post by **PA31 Driver** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:13 pm

wasn't there a saying " It's not if you forget to put the gear down, It's when you forget to put the gear down "

Navajo-dude · Post by **Navajo-dude** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:41 pm

As usual, a bunch of two-bit opinions based on speculation. Better get the facts before jumping all over this pilot - there could have been a mechanical issue...

neechi · Post by **neechi** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:05 pm

All I have to say is its too bad it happened. Hope the pilot can continue working for his/her company and that this is not the end of his/her career. I heard the insurance companys dont like pilots who make mistakes anymore, whether its a "gear up" or a violation. Could have a hard time finding work again if it was pilot error.

Cap'n P8 · Post by **Cap'n P8** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:03 am

I'm not jumping on anybody. I did see the plane just after it happened while it was sitting on the runway and afterwards when they had lifted it up...and put the gear down. I was on day hire with the MNR the next day and took a look at the plane on their ramp. Prop strikes on both engines wear marks on the belly more towards the rear (including on the rear gear doors).

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:58 am

Flying Low is correct. Yes, high time pilots screw up. No doubt about it! However, insurance companies look at risk. Risk per 100,000 hours flown. If a guy with 10,000 hours "forgets" the gear, he has had an accident once in 10,000 hours. When a guy with 1,500 hours...or less..well, you know where I'm going here. And it is the insurance companies that keep you low time guys/gals out of airplanes, not the airlines....because you guys will fly for peanuts! And stupid, preventable accidents are the reason.
Another thing I wonder about is (while he's not a pilot and not at all at fault) where was the right seater during this?? I like to tell my non-pilot front seaters that it's THEIR job to see three green lights before I land? Just a thought?

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:51 am

Someone asked if 337's have gear problems. That is why the nickname "tanglefoot". A complex system can give problems if it is not cared for properly. A broken electrical wire can prevent the doors from opening, just like the Navajo.
It is interesting but when I learned to fly in 1959,I was taught by an ex-military WW11 BCATP/ fighter pilot instructor and they did not use checklist. I never used checklists until I started flying complex twins in a two crew envionment so it is almost like learning a second language. I do not endorse the practice, that is the way the RCAF did things and that is what I learned. We used limirics as a memory jogger and I still use it to this day in some cases. For take-off, we had "Try My Finger For Size Charlie" Trims-Mixtures-Fuel-Flaps-Controls" I still, below 200 ft, run a quick, silent GUMP check. I have never forgotten the gear yet but I have come oh! so close!.

Cap'n P8 · Post by **Cap'n P8** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:07 pm

The right seater was...in the right seat. I guess if he would have remembered to tell him to back him up he probably would have remembered the gear too.

golden hawk · Post by **golden hawk** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:15 am

----------------------------------------Occurrence 5----------------------------------------

Occurrence No. : A05C0125 Occurrence Type: ACCIDENT
Class : CLASS 5 Reportable Type:
Date : 09-07-2005 Time : 15:15 CDT
Region of Responsibility : CENTRAL
Location : CYPL PICKLE LAKE, ONTARIO

Aircraft Information:

Registration : C-FSIZ Operator : HICKS & LAWRENCE
Manufacturer : CESSNA Operator Type: COMMERCIAL
Model : 337 CARs Info: 703 - AIR TAXI
Injuries: Fatal : 0 Serious : 0 Minor : 0 None : 2 Unknown : 0

Occurrence Summary :

A05C0125: The Cessna C337, C-FSIZ, was landing on Rwy 27 in Pickle Lake Ontario, after a fire patrol flight. The landing gear was not selected down before landing and the aircraft landed with its wheels retracted. The aircraft sustained substantial damage to its lower fuselage and both propellors; the pilot and passenger were not injured. Runway 27 in Pickle lake was closed for approximately 3 hours while the aircraft was removed. The aircraft has been removed from service and is awaiting repair in Pickle Lake.

desksgo · Post by **desksgo** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:08 am

And on a related note, its never too early to get your resume in for next season's detection positions. As per new MNR requirements, only those with 3000 hours and 500 multi will be considered.

desksgo · Post by **desksgo** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:55 am

My doctor found them during my last medical. Ie. Pulled from my rumpal area.

Actually, despite enormous insurance pressures and no shortage of 5000 hour pilots who are desperate enough to fly skymasters, the good people of Hicks and Lawrence have stood by their 1000/100 requirements. I am sure Mr. Birddog would support that statement.

Just keep in mind when you fly with them, if you're going to make the easy mistakes, they can always find someone with 2000 more hours to lower that insurance rate.

Inverted2 · Post by **Inverted2** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:50 am

Poor SIZ. I hope the green shag carpeting was ok. I remember a Voyageur pilot gearing up a 337 back in 1998. Doesn't matter how many hours you have, people will still do stupid things like forgetting the gear.

Miss Mae · Post by **Miss Mae** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:38 am

Doc wrote:If the gear wouldn't come down, that's one thing. Glad nobody got hurt. That IS the most important consideration, BUT, Miss Mae, you have to rid yourself of the "Crap happens" attitude. It's killing us. It's killing us with insurance costs. If a pilot "forgets" to do something as basic as putting the friggen gear down, it's time to consider another vocation! As far a preventable accidents go, forgetting the gear, has to rank pretty high.
Now, as I said, if something broke, then that's a different can of worms. But looking at it as "just needing a weld" is poor, poor, poor!

Don't jump to conclusions!, what I mean is that whatever happened is up to the people involved to work out. It becomes our business when the dust settles and the cause is determined..but until that was confirmed it wasn't our place to speculate.

neechi · Post by **neechi** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:10 am

desksgo wrote: Just keep in mind when you fly with them, if you're going to make the easy mistakes, they can always find someone with 2000 more hours to lower that insurance rate.

They could have this year but they didn't want to give actual days off or pay a decent wage.

neechi · Post by **neechi** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:52 am

You could also say that many low timers have helped the company over the years too. They are like every other company out there looking to make/save the most money by taking advantage of the pilot marketplace.

In my last post I was disagreeing with a previous post that implied they would be getting a 3000 hour pilot(for detection) under the same conditions and pay structure .

As for their system for giving days off, the pilot has to show up in the morning regardless of fog or sun just to be sent home or be sent flying. Wll pilots do it, some. Is that complying with the CARS? Probibly not.

grouchy · Post by **grouchy** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:28 am

Neechi, I like guys that can think for themselves. Cheers.

water wings · Post by **water wings** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:02 pm

an FYI...no, the pilots do not show up rain or shine. Just Shine... they have this thing called a pager... maybe you've seen one. it beeps and boops and vibrates if you're into that stuff. Too many days off is the only complaint i have heard from detection and Birdog pilots, and that is mostly thanks to Mother Nature and her hatred for Dryden. (no matter how much it rains, Dryden still stinks - even at 5000ft)

well.. let's just say, H&L has been treating the pilots just fine, don't worry kids, no pilots will be harmed or reduce to shame during the season. Hell, they are one of the few companies that do not have a traing bond and still cover all of your training costs. And sometimes there is cake.
Cheers, be happy.

neechi · Post by **neechi** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:57 pm

Bang on point WW. No training bonds required. But WTF are you going to do with one anyways? Skip out and go and work for ???????

I guess you didn’t work there last year where the pilots DID show up every day rain or shine? Before pager technology made it to dryden I guess.

No pilot bashing from me. Sounds like a great place for a 1000 hour instructor to break into the game. And probibly a hike in pay as well. But God help them if one day they do HAVE to hire a 2 or 3G hour pilot. They wont be able to get away with paying what they do now, hopefully by then cell phones will have made it to dryden.

water wings wrote:an FYI...no, the pilots do not show up rain or shine. Just Shine... they have this thing called a pager... maybe you've seen one. it beeps and boops and vibrates if you're into that stuff.

water wings · Post by **water wings** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:03 pm

Giant Tiger!!!! the big bargain yellow store that is sweeping the nation has a 337 for their "corporate" machine. no, really, they do. imagine getting an employee discount on all the stuff they sell...wow
and some company outta Springbank, AB has 337s, too... i seen 'em. i touched 'em.

CLguy · Post by **CLguy** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:36 pm

H&L fired the pilot for the OOPS. Now they have sent a clear message that as a chief pilot you can bend metal with no consequences but as a line pilot, bend metal and you are down the road.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:33 pm

CLguy, I dont know what the CP did, but you dont think they should send a guy home for forgetting the gear?
Maybe they should look into 336's?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:22 pm

Is R still chief pilot?

Cat

CLguy · Post by **CLguy** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:33 am

Cat you are correct!

Doc, I agree but one must be careful on what message gets sent to the staff. Management makes an OOPS and a pretty stupid one at that and it just sails under the radar with no repercussions. Not a good situation in my books!!!

I have always thought what is good for the goose is good for the gander but apparently not!!!!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:13 am

Ahhh, so he is still with H&L..

..We used to call him " The Rooster " when he worked at the Flying Fireman and he had a habit of climbing up on the wings of the 337 and looking at the weather from that vantage point...

..I always kind of liked Rooster, if you see him tell I said hi..

.

Navajo-dude · Post by **Navajo-dude** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:15 pm

Time for him to retire gracefully.