Dear YKF flight instructors

[rt777]

500 foot circuits are perfectly legal.

In fact, they are required when
doing circuits in controlled airspace and
the ceiling is 1000 AGL.

Nowhere in the CARs is an altitude or
dimension specified for a circuit. You
could do it at 10 feet with the downwind
500 feet laterally spaced from the runway.

Or you could do it at 10,000 feet with the
downwind 100 miles laterally spaced from
the runway.

I feel like if I did this, tower would start yelling at me or asking why I am so low.

[iflyforpie]

Regarding circuits, one would do good to read CAR 602.96. Although it does not specify altitudes and dimensions of a circuit, it does specify circuit directions and tell you to conform to or avoid aircraft in a traffic pattern.

I only do non-standard patterns when I am the sole plane in the circuit.

[iflyforpie]

I feel like if I did this, tower would start yelling at me or asking why I am so low.

That's why you do them closer, so you look higher. I guess it doesn't work in a radar environment though.

[Colonel Sanders]

Do recall that your transponder has these
very convenient "ON" and even "STBY"
selections.

Fun With Transponders and ATC

Years ago, I was flying internationally as
a group of three Pitts. One of them had a
flaky transponder - no biggie, because ATC
assigns a squawk only to the lead aircraft,
and the wing squawk STBY.

Well, this ATC assigned discrete squawk
codes to all the aircraft in the formation.
This is very bad from an engineering
standpoint, but ATC is always right.

Now, I had a working transponder. And
ATC wanted to see 3 codes. So, what I
did was squawk my code for a few seconds,
then changed my code to the other aircraft
that I knew had a busted transponder. I
did this, back and forth until we landed, so
that ATC could see their 3 codes. And
whatever other aliases resulted.

Remember, always do what ya gotta do,
and tell them what they want to hear.

Funny thing is that after we landed, the pilot
of the aircraft with the busted transponder
knew what I was doing, even though I didn't
say a word

[iflyforpie]

My first lesson in transponders was watching Murdock from the A-Team getting his Gulfstream through controlled airspace by flying formation with airliners.....

[NotDirty!]

You should probably just request circuits on the wrong side, do them nice and tight, and get 2 in for every one that the other guys do!

[NotDirty!]

It might have something to do with the 127 items they have on their pre-landing checklist.

Maybe you should show them the 737 checklist... I'm willing to bet it is shorter.

Don't forget the after-takeoff, level-off, cruise, descent, downwind, approach, and 1st, 2nd, and 3rd GUMPP checks! Anybody who does a circuit in less than 20 minutes has skipped some highly important steps!

[iflyforpie]

What about the takeoff brief on each touch and go? THISWILLBEAMAXPOWERTAKEOFFZEROFLAPROTATIONAT55KNOTSANYFAILUREWITH SUFFICIENTRUNWAYAHEADWILLBETHROTTLETOIDLEMAXBRAKESANYFAILUREWITHOUTSUFFICIENTRUNWAYBELOW500FTWILLBEFORCED APPROACHSTRAIGHTAHEAD....

[rt777]

What about the takeoff brief on each touch and go? THISWILLBEAMAXPOWERTAKEOFFZEROFLAPROTATIONAT55KNOTSANYFAILUREWITH SUFFICIENTRUNWAYAHEADWILLBETHROTTLETOIDLEMAXBRAKESANYFAILUREWITHOUTSUFFICIENTRUNWAYBELOW500FTWILLBEFORCED APPROACHSTRAIGHTAHEAD....

Meanwhile, the student cannot land or maintain centreline on the runway because they are too distracted with a bunch of checklists and SOPs in a Cessna.

[rt777]

Do recall that your transponder has these
very convenient "ON" and even "STBY"
selections.

They also love pointing out who forgets to put their transponder to ALT encoding!

[photofly]

GIven that the CARs require checklists to be used, give us a reasonable checklist for a student to use in a cessna.

Maybe that's worth a new thread. I'm fascinated to see if the more experienced instructors and pilots here can reach a consensus. Then we can publish it, laminated, as "AvCanada approved".

PS Since one wants students to use it, it had better comply with whatever the flight test standards require, so "controls free and correct" had better be included.

[Colonel Sanders]

Physician, heal thyself!

[photofly]

I keep getting stuck on what comes after "student -- LOCATE".
And should it be "ignition key orientation -- CORRECT" or "ignition key -- ORIENT" ??

[CpnCrunch]

Maybe that's worth a new thread. I'm fascinated to see if the more experienced instructors and pilots here can reach a consensus. Then we can publish it, laminated, as "AvCanada approved".

Here you go:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

This is a C150 checklist that ahramin gave me (as the one in the plane was a bit ridiculous) and I tweaked it a little bit. I've compared it to the one in the plane, and there isn't anything important missing. There's no prelanding checklist as I do a bumflich. I do the after landing and shutdown from memory, so those could probably be removed too.

I just realised that it doesn't mention leaning after startup, which probably should go in (I just remember to do that). Also it doesn't mention 'clear prop'. I guess it's just a question of whether or not you put in every little thing.

[photofly]

I like it; I'd ditch the radio clearance item, and add a check of circuit breakers somewhere.

[CpnCrunch]

I like it; I'd ditch the radio clearance item, and add a check of circuit breakers somewhere.

There are no cbs in this plane. You'll get a rap over the knuckles if you don't get radio clearance, but I guess you'd need to be pretty zoned out to go over the hold short lines without getting permission.

[Colonel Sanders]

I've been beating on this dead horse
for quite some time, but ...

A checklist is not a "do-list". It is not
a "how to fly" book for dummies.

A checklist should contain items, which
if left unattended, could be reasonably
expected to result in your death. Or at
least a chagrined call to the TSB.

Example: before takeoff, the prop
lever(s) should be forward.

Example: before landing, the gear
should be down.

Less is more. Only important stuff
goes on the checklist. Resist the
temptation to put an extra 100
items in there "for safety".

I really wish more instructors would
learn the value of minimalism. Most
instructors work very hard at distracting
students from what they need to know,
like an amateur magician. Just look at
their PGI.

EDIT -- even the admirably brief C150
checklist (which I'm sure most FTU "big
circuit" instructors would consider scandalously
short) contains "nanny state" items
which I would remove, such as recording
start/takeoff/landing/shutdown times
and reminding you to close your flight
plan, and to lower the toilet seat when
you stand up.

Here's my litmus test: if I omit the
checklist item, could I die, or at least
make the newspaper? If not, it's removed
from the checklist, because it's really
not that important.

Minimalism. Less is more. Prioritize.
Spend time thinking about what is
important. Less Cargo Cult.

Checklists are part of a religion, and
I must apologize when I question religions.

Keep in mind that I probably fly more
wildy different types of aircraft than almost
anyone else here, and I don't use checklists
in any of them. 40 years of flying so far,
and no accidents. Coincidence?

[photofly]

It's not intuitive to a new pilot how to start an aircraft engine. I don't object to a list that tells people what order to sequence the primer, mixture, throttle, magneto and alternator controls, and reminds them to make sure there's positive oil pressure.

Sometimes there's a place for a bit of "do" in a "checklist", no?

[skypirate88]

Unfortunately this checklist philosophy is taught from hour one as a new student. As an instructor I was guilty of using the checklist as a read and do list while teaching my students because that's how I was taught. (I should add that I only used the checklist with students, personal flights or ferry flights the thing stayed stored.)

Going from a 172 to the back of the Boeing 727 this read and do habit had to be broken. All 3 crew member actions from pushback to shutdown are completed using a scan, then confirmed using a brief checklist.

Had I been able to utilize this checklist use while teaching I really believe my students would have been better off.

[CpnCrunch]

I don't think it really matters whether you do it from memory, list or scan, as long as you do it. However even Illya admits that he sometimes forgets to put the flaps up.

I believe all the things on my checklist have the potential to kill you or damage the plane if you forget them, or be required by law. I think I added the close flight plan, check 121.5 and passenger briefing.

I'm sure I could do everything from memory now, but I prefer to use the checklist for start-up/runup/takeoff just in case I forget anything. I've a fairly good memory compared to some pilots, although I do forget things occasionally. I really don't see the big deal in using a checklist/dolist.

[PilotDAR]

I really don't see the big deal in using a checklist/dolist

No big deal using a checklist as a checklist - not a "do" list. If you need to read the instructions to fly the plane, you need to read the flight manual. If you need to read you regulatory obligations, you need to read the CARS/AIM.

If you know how to fly that type of aircraft properly, then the checklist is just that, a list of things to check that you have done from your memory, based proficient knowledge of the aircraft. No problem using a checklist, as long as it is not a to do list!

[Rookie50]

I scan the checklist on the ground before startup ---did I remove all covers, plugs, chocks, check drains and oil caps -- and pre -- takeoff (flaps down, ect) but I do everything as a flow and never look at the checklist in the air.

Another glance after landing -- otherwise I have forgotten to kill the lights once or twice cause I can't easily see the switches behind my yoke -- otherwise that's it. It's a simple checklist with the kill you items highlighted -- I wrote it myself. (which I recommend)

Could see in a more complex plane like a pressurized piston or turbine twin with 6 fuel tanks, dual generators etc, might need a bit longer checklist.

But no, I didnt need a checklist to tell me to properly adjust my seat and buckle my belts. A flow does work really well. Worst thing I've forgotten lately after 5 hours of flying was taxiing after landing with carb heat still hot (thankfully on pavement)

[CpnCrunch]

No big deal using a checklist as a checklist - not a "do" list. If you need to read the instructions to fly the plane, you need to read the flight manual. If you need to read you regulatory obligations, you need to read the CARS/AIM.

If you know how to fly that type of aircraft properly, then the checklist is just that, a list of things to check that you have done from your memory, based proficient knowledge of the aircraft. No problem using a checklist, as long as it is not a to do list!

What's the problem with using it as a 'do' list? I don't need instructions to fly the plane or regulatory obligations, I just want to make sure I do all the items before takeoff. Using a checklist seems to be a safe and efficient way of doing that.

[PilotDAR]

Using a checklist seems to be a safe and efficient way of doing that.

Using a checklist is a safe and efficient way of checking that you have done what you have been trained and practiced to do. If the safety of your flight depends upon the use of a checklist to tell you what you have to do to configure and operate the aircraft safely, You should get to know your plane better.

There's nothing wrong with using a checklist, it's depending upon it which worries me.

[Old Dog Flying]

As a very long in the tooth ATC and Flight Instructor (now retired from both professions) , I too hated the X/C circuits and the Airline training bug-a-boo was one of the common excuses. Then came the Mickey Mouse RADAR displays added to the towers and the new kids on the block started using it as a crutch instead of just another tool.

At YMJ, it was nothing to have 15 Tutors in the circuit on the outer runway doing up to 8 types of approaches...all at the same time. And no tower RADAR...just the MkI eyeball and a 3D brain. Then at YPK, one controller, parallel runways and up to 250 movements per hour..no bull.

At ZBB, 7-9 a/c in the pattern with a few ESLs included, then RADAR. No more than 6 in the circuit, then no more than 4 in the circuit and there had to be 2 miles separation. There were other issues on both sides of the glass but thankfully I no longer have to keep switching hats.

For both sides, KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid. Keep your heads out the window and quit pretending that you are operating the Big Tin...at a small general aviation airport. For both the controllers and the instructors, get back to basics because that is your job.

End of sermon for the day.